(I don't know if this is in the right part of the forum, so Admin-punt it off into the right one, eh?)

I have a long set of concerns about my GM. I don't know if he reads here though, so I don't want to say too much, but I have no idea how to address the issues in a non-confrontational manner because despite the issues, he is a really nice guy.

The biggest is that he insists on hosting at his place when he can- no problem, it's only fair. But his home (shared with spouse & grown kids) is filthy: un-neutered opposite-sex animals with pest infestations as well as a general miasma of grime & fur all over the place. We can't say we're allergic to the pets as he knows we have our own, and we've sprayed ourselves down with repellant before we go so we can enjoy our time there with blinders on. We've been hosting elsewhere most of the time, and I haven't brought it up at all because I don't want to be rude. ie: Animals jump on us and he is proud papa saying how friendly they are and that they'd never bite etc, while I am very very very not-happy.

#2 is that he shares his very personal, intimate problems with us (money, sex, health), and we're just speechless, giving non-commital replies if possible.

I'm at a loss now. I know it's not game-related, but I AM enjoying of his company and the game itself and I don't know if I can stand this to go on much longer.


:confused:

Just put it neutrally.

"We feel that it's easier to concentrate on the game if the venue has calm and quiet animals, and is clean and neat. Also, we're very touched that you trust us so much as to share such intimate things with us, but during game sessions we'd like to focus on game talk, we can talk about personal stuff outside the sessions."

If that's too subtle for him, then get blunt and nasty, saying, "dude, you stink, your animals are rank, and we don't want to know about your quality time with Mrs Palmer and her Five Daughters."

And from the other side of the coin...

Stop coddling the lawncrapper. Tell him in no uncertain terms to get his shit together, stop treating his fellow gamers like they're his case workers, train his pets not to jump on people, and clean his fucking home if he wants guests to come over without feeling ill. Assuming he manages to wash himself, let him know he's still welcome to play whenever it's hosted somewhere else, but there's no campaign on earth worth getting a goddamn skin condition over.

I mean, I'm presuming this guy has no major mental defects, but it doesn't seem unreasonable to me. A place that requires preventative treatment to enter safely (spraying yourselves with repellant) isn't a gaming space, it's a fucking hazard, and it's unbelievably rude to insist other people sit in his squalor just so he doesn't have to leave the house.

Quote from: ciadoThe biggest is that he insists on hosting at his place when he can- no problem, it's only fair. But his home (shared with spouse & grown kids) is filthy: un-neutered opposite-sex animals with pest infestations as well as a general miasma of grime & fur all over the place. We can't say we're allergic to the pets as he knows we have our own, and we've sprayed ourselves down with repellant before we go so we can enjoy our time there with blinders on. We've been hosting elsewhere most of the time, and I haven't brought it up at all because I don't want to be rude. ie: Animals jump on us and he is proud papa saying how friendly they are and that they'd never bite etc, while I am very very very not-happy.

I've had this exact problem more than once.  There is no easy way to tell a friend or host that their home is god awful and makes you ill.  Both times I just stopped playing.  All this despite my home being cleaned weekly before people arrive, smoke and animal free, and setup just for gaming...

So you have my sympathies at least.  If quitting isn't so much of an option then I'd at least bring these concerns to light.  An awful play environment makes it a lot more difficult to enjoy games.

Quote#2 is that he shares his very personal, intimate problems with us (money, sex, health), and we're just speechless, giving non-commital replies if possible.

This is something that close friends do, but it is odd to hear it in a group setting.  I'd probably try to shift the conversation back to gaming as quickly as I reasonably could.

QuoteI'm at a loss now. I know it's not game-related, but I AM enjoying of his company and the game itself and I don't know if I can stand this to go on much longer.

You're going to have to deal with it sooner or later, might as well get it done.  Then at least there's the potential for improvement.

Quote from: C.W.RichesonThere is no easy way to tell a friend or host that their home is god awful and makes you ill.

Sure there is.  "Your home is god awful and makes me ill."  See how easy?

If anything, the problem is not saying the thing ... it's explaining why you went on for so long without saying it.  If you'd taken five steps in the door, said "OhmyGAWD!" and balked then this would have been resolved in a single session.  You could have played that session in a pub, and made it clear that you would never be coming back there unless it got cleaned and deloused.

But now you've got two issues:  First, telling the guy that he lives in a little slice of nightmare.  Second (and far harder) explaining what feels different now that means you want to bring the subject up, where before you were willing to gloss over it.

He wouldn't be crazy to think "Oh ... they used to like me enough to ignore this filth, but now they don't like me as much any more."  He's clearly making it a friendship test.  I don't generally accept that people are unaware of bug-crawling levels of filth.  I think they're aware of how it appears to people, and they value the people who will hang out with them anyway.  Which is very human, but also a little icky.

If you want to play turnabout, you can always make his cleaning up his house into a friendship-test too.  You can tell him, "Man, I love hanging out with you, but I find this house skin-crawlingly nasty.  I'll hang out with you either way, but I can't help feeling that you just don't like me very much if this is all the cleaning effort you're willing to make on my behalf."

Now, to me, that sounds wildly passive-aggressive.  If it sound wildly passive-aggressive to you then bear in mind that suffering in silence is, in fact, a step above and beyond on the passive-aggressive scale.  You're not only feeling the same thing as the previous paragraph, you're expecting him to read your mind on top of it.

As said at the top, I recommend instead the straightforward approach:  "Dude, your house is a pit.  I didn't want to play here to start with, and it's only now that I've gathered the courage to broach the subject.  The simple fact is, I won't be back to any place where I get leg-humped by a dog at the same time roaches crawl down my neck."

The easy get out would have been the pet allergy.
 
If you have someone elses house you could use, I'd arrange for a session to be around there. Then make sure the place is clean enough to be used as an operating theatre.
As he arrives for the game, everyone makes comments like "Wow, this place is sparkling! You clean this up special for us?" etc. Hopefully, he'll catch a hint or two.
 
If that fails, one or more of you will have to confront him with "Look, we like the game, we like you, we don't want you out, but, we're not happy about playing the game in a house that's a mess and getting fleabitten or slobbered on."

I've got to admit, I'm strangely fascinated with all this. In all my years of gaming I've yet to meet a lawncrapper - I'm assuming this is what this GM is -or folks who game in such horrid surroundings. If I was in this situation I'd just tell the guy, to clean up his act...but honestly I would have done this the first time I stepped into his house.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RI've got to admit, I'm strangely fascinated with all this. In all my years of gaming I've yet to meet a lawncrapper - I'm assuming this is what this GM is -or folks who game in such horrid surroundings. If I was in this situation I'd just tell the guy, to clean up his act...but honestly I would have done this the first time I stepped into his house.

I've actually met a lot of people like this.  So many that I tend to assume gamers are like this now.

As awesome as it would be to step through a host's door and say "Your home is god awful" or "Your home smells of urine" or "There are roaches crawling on me" or "Your animals are trying to attack me / have sex with me" it's very difficult when you're new there.  Even when you're an established guest most folk are sensitive about their homes and, no matter how well phrased you put it, don't appreciate being told their home is so nasty you don't want to go there.

I've started threads on this very topic on other sites, such as RPG.net, specifically because of the frequency I've encountered it in my gaming life.  By and away most people online seem to consider cleanliness very important, at least of the "Vacuum and dust once a week, clean the toilet" level.  Sadly, this has never conformed with my experiences - most people seem to tolerate or actively embrace disgusting living environments.

Maybe it's just a South East US thing?

David R:  FWIW, I've met one guy whose house comes close to this description.  He had all the basic panoply of reasons (poor health, extreme work hours, family hardships, etc.)  Truly, his position is pitiable, and my human feeling is moved for him.  Still, nasty.

I sat through one session politely, and then the next time he tried to organize something at his house I said "I'll pass.  I didn't want to make a fuss, but your house is in pretty bad shape.  I find I can't really get comfortable there."  I missed out on a little gaming, but pretty rapidly people in the same circle said much the same thing, and moved on to other areas.

David I envy you. I can only wish I had never met a lawncrapper or gamed with them.

I really don't have any advice for the OP other than be honest with the guy and offer to host the game, or find another group.

There's a whole continuum of hygiene habits out there, and as gamers we can get exposed to more of it than if we play, say, soccer or pool at a neutral location, since we so often play at someone's house.  For example, I have many gamer friends who think "the puppy is so cute" when the 90-lbs puppy shoves its nose in your crotch then tries to steal the contents of your lunch.  Moreover, they no longet notice that the that the place smells like hell because of their three dogs.  (I also happen to know this is no limited to gamer households.)  

My suggestions for this issue would be to start by checking with the other players how they feel about this location; getting some support can't hurt.  Then try to find a neutral location, such as another player's house, a game store, a coffee shop, etc.  Make it a permanent change, since the odds that the GM will neuter his pets, give them monthly flea treatment, train them to behave, vacuum weekly, etc. are next to nil -- that would require a complete change of lifestyle.

As for the overly personal conversations...  Again, I would check whether I can get any support from the other players, but ultimately, all I can think of is to try the neutral but firm approach suggested by JimBob.  If that doesn't work or causes unreasonable offence, I would simply look for another game (or start one.)

Er.. non-confrontational?  :raise:  lol

We (my SO & I, not the other member of the group) have been to this man's house twice. The first time, it was dimly lit so I only noticed the kitchen filth and the animals crawling with fleas. Then we had all the rest of teh games at MY place (I'm not all Monica about it, but I do enjoy the sexy scent of eau de clorox...)

The 2nd time (hosed down with Deep Woods OFF) was because the GM told us that his spouse had said that he didn't have a kitchen pass so could we all meet at his place, and we (SO & I) caved because the other person in our group said he'd go too and back us up about the conditions once he'd witnessed them. 3rd person didn't show up. (While I was there I was going to use the bathroom but changed my mind at the doorway.) I tried:

- Upon being greeted by quiet & neutered dog: "OH MY! Oh- GM, holy cow, did you know your poor puppy here is just crawling with fleas?!" The reply to that: "Oh yea, we can't keep them out, the dogs get them from outside."

- When non-neutered male pit mix stepped on or layed on or jumped on me: "Get DOWN." and then "Ow." .. "OW. Go play, dog. Shoo" etc.

- Me: "Did you know that your bathroom is out of handsoap & tp?" GM's Spouse: "Oh, we don't use handsoap in the bathroom, and I'll get you some tp."

- Me, in the kitchen with GM, his spouse and my SO, "You must have had a wild weekend here! Can I help clear any of this up or put anything away to make room for __whatever it was__?" No reaction.

We left early, having gotten nothing done game-wise. The next round was at my place again this time with 3rd person there, and after we stopped the game for the night, during the usual post-game BS session GM admitted to some of the problems, but cast blame elsewhere, then detailed his personal woes again.

As TonyLB pointed out, after we've put up with it this long it will seem like a sudden attack if we bring up the issues now.

I'm feeling all Dear Abby about it- while I don't want him to read this and recognise himself and feel deeply insulted that I'd bring it to strangers (even super-cool, empathetic ones who live in our world), at the same time I want to clip it and stick it on the fridge with highlighted parts, y'know?


I've considered showing him the infected (despite my handy-dandy med tech skillz) bites (well.. healed-over scabs & scars now since it's been a few weeks) and flat out saying I can't go back until the place is decent; but I don't know how to bring up the bites in the first place now that it's weeks later, short of prancing about in my underoos which is not gonna happen.

Arg. Yes, I realize I should have said something up front but I'm a polite, non-confrontational girl. (read: 'great big pansy ass')

Guy Picciotto put it well:  "There are people who are just too punk rock.  If you are sleeping on the floor and a cat takes a piss right next to your head, do not return to that place!"

For the life of me I have no idea why you'd go back except out of desperation to roleplay with someone, anyone.  That's pretty much why I've gone back in the past, and I've regretted it.

Come on.  No soap in the bathroom?  This isn't something you change by saying "Hey, can we talk about the gaming environment?"  You say that when are some bugs or an animal keeps bothering you.  When there is a flat out biting insect infestation the situation is beyond saving.  Any person reasonable enough to listen to your complaint about the conditions would already know how messed up it was.

Keep in mind that you're bringing that stuff home with you, in your clothes and bags.

There are other people to play with.  Beg off.  Lie if it's easier, with the standby work excuse or whatever is handy.  You're not going to change this person no matter how clever and worldly your statement to them is.  You may waste time, however, continuing to deal with this mess when you could be finding (or building, on your terms) a group of at least moderately well adjusted folk.

I've been in your exact position, no difference at all, and the only thing I regret was dealing with the problem more than twice.

I'm beginning to see that, which makes me sad.

I'm not all that desperate to game, SO and I have another 2x/month group, but I feel like a bad person if I dissemble or get mean/blunt.

I thought of us bringing uninvited guests home, or him bringing it when he comes here, so I invested in a metric buttload of eucalyptus, pennyroyal and pure borax to de-pest my car, clothes, and house with.

Like I said- I'm not super-anal. I keep all my stuff in handy mounds and stacks .. in my bedroom where most people won't see it. And his house is actually much better than some I've seen, outside of the pest issue.


*sigh. I hate being the Bad Guy, unless that's what it says on my character sheet.