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Author Topic: Is Wizards "Canceling the OGL"?  (Read 11883 times)

Zelen

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Re: Is Wizards "Canceling the OGL"?
« Reply #45 on: November 27, 2022, 07:55:13 PM »
WotC cannot undo the existing 5.1 5e OGL. All they can really do is not update it, which will make it harder for people to make D&Done compatible content independent of the new OneSRD.

Actually the OGL states that they can revoke your use of the OGL.
I think they would have a hard time pulling it off. But the clause exists to allow them to pull some stunt.

Where did you get that idea? Please point to the clause(s) in the OGL that allows it to be revoked.

RPGPundit

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Re: Is Wizards "Canceling the OGL"?
« Reply #46 on: November 27, 2022, 09:17:25 PM »
His hasn't posted on twitter since he got the job, and you have to go back to posts from 2017 to figure out that he is a democrat.
https://twitter.com/KyleBrink

29 Jan 2017 he retweeted agreeing with Paul Joseph Watson. Based!  ;D

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Jaeger

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Re: Is Wizards "Canceling the OGL"?
« Reply #47 on: November 27, 2022, 11:22:15 PM »
...
I don't disagree - but what is the expectation here? That they should be making games out of the goodness of their hearts for the good of the wider RPG hobby?

A company of any size bigger than a handful of people isn't making RPGs out of the goodness of their hearts. They're doing it to make money.

What I would hope is they put out a product good enough that consumers are willing to pay good money for it. Usually though not always, better products make more money.

The expectation is that they go full-steam ahead with their current plans.

I'm all for it.


...
Actually the OGL states that they can revoke your use of the OGL.
I think they would have a hard time pulling it off. But the clause exists to allow them to pull some stunt.
...
Where did you get that idea? Please point to the clause(s) in the OGL that allows it to be revoked.

I don't know either - I just looked at it, and all I could see was that they could wage lawfare on you only if you don't comply with the terms of the OGL - which you'd have to go out of your way stupid to screw up.

But I'm more than willing to be corrected by my betters on this.


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estar

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Re: Is Wizards "Canceling the OGL"?
« Reply #49 on: November 28, 2022, 11:58:05 AM »
Actually the OGL states that they can revoke your use of the OGL.
I think they would have a hard time pulling it off. But the clause exists to allow them to pull some stunt.
Is it really so hard to quote from the actual license to make your point? Granted it is what the Pundit does but you don't have to follow his example.

If you had you would have realized that the license doesn't say what you just claimed.

Quote
12. Inability to Comply: If it is impossible for You to comply with any of the terms of this License with respect to some or all of the Open Game Content due to statute, judicial order, or governmental regulation then You may not Use any Open Game Material so affected.

13. Termination: This License will terminate automatically if You fail to comply with all terms herein and fail to cure such breach within 30 days of becoming aware of the breach. All sublicenses shall survive the termination of this License.

The terms you have to comply with are

#5, that what you are contributing as open content is your original content that you have full rights too.
#6, that you update the copyright notice correctly.
#7, that you don't use any content declared as product identity unless it is licensed separately. And you don't cite compatibility with any trademark without a license.
#8, that you clearly identify what is open content in your work.

This means that Wizards does not have any authority to revoke your use of anything they contribute as open content. The only discretion they have is to ignore a licensee failing to do #5, #6, #7, or #8. For example the hundreds of publishers that use a variant of

Quote
Any content derived from the SRD is open content the rest is declared as product identity.

Which in my view violates the letter and spirit of Section #8. But Wizards has ignored this for decades including publishers that just include the OGL but fail to include any declaration of any open content or product identity.

And finally to make this crystal fucking clear they explicitly say that is a perpetual license.

Quote
4. Grant and Consideration: In consideration for agreeing to use this License, the Contributors grant You a perpetual, worldwide, royalty-free, non-exclusive license with the exact terms of this License to Use, the Open Game Content.

All of this taken from the latest D&D 5e SRD
https://media.wizards.com/2016/downloads/SRD-OGL_V1.1.pdf

MeganovaStella

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Re: Is Wizards "Canceling the OGL"?
« Reply #50 on: November 28, 2022, 12:40:28 PM »
i wish they fucking did

Omega

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Re: Is Wizards "Canceling the OGL"?
« Reply #51 on: November 29, 2022, 03:46:13 PM »
WotC cannot undo the existing 5.1 5e OGL. All they can really do is not update it, which will make it harder for people to make D&Done compatible content independent of the new OneSRD.

Actually the OGL states that they can revoke your use of the OGL.
I think they would have a hard time pulling it off. But the clause exists to allow them to pull some stunt.

Where did you get that idea? Please point to the clause(s) in the OGL that allows it to be revoked.

think it is part 14. Stats that your use of the OGL may be terminated if WOTC deems it in violation. You have 30 days to 'cure' it or you lose the license agreement.

One of their other TOUs has a little clause about irrevocably giving up all rights to your creations in perpetuity. Think that was only for the forum though. Cant seen to find it now.

S'mon

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Re: Is Wizards "Canceling the OGL"?
« Reply #52 on: November 29, 2022, 05:43:28 PM »
think it is part 14. Stats that your use of the OGL may be terminated if WOTC deems it in violation. You have 30 days to 'cure' it or you lose the license agreement.

I think that term is pretty generous compared to what you typically see on standard form contracts. AFAICT it means they cannot sue you for breach without giving you a chance to rectify.

estar

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Re: Is Wizards "Canceling the OGL"?
« Reply #53 on: November 29, 2022, 07:24:18 PM »
think it is part 14.


Really, I link to the actual license and you can't be bothered to look it up and quote it.

This is the actual section 14. I already cited the termination clauses.
Quote
14.Reformation: If any provision of this License is held to be unenforceable, such provision shall be reformed only to the extent necessary to make it enforceable.

Stats that your use of the OGL may be terminated if WOTC deems it in violation. You have 30 days to 'cure' it or you lose the license agreement.
Section 12 & 13 don't give Wizards any discretion. Either you meet the four clauses that spells out what you do or you don't. And if you don't you have 30 days to correct and if you do so you can resume use of the open content.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2022, 07:27:19 PM by estar »

estar

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Re: Is Wizards "Canceling the OGL"?
« Reply #54 on: November 29, 2022, 07:29:12 PM »
I think that term is pretty generous compared to what you typically see on standard form contracts. AFAICT it means they cannot sue you for breach without giving you a chance to rectify.
What happens if you fail to comply, you lose the right to the open content and the Wizards (or another publisher who open content you use) can sue you for using material you don't have a right to use. Just as if you started distributing PDFs of the PHB.

Almost_Useless

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Re: Is Wizards "Canceling the OGL"?
« Reply #55 on: November 29, 2022, 10:18:19 PM »
What happens if you fail to comply, you lose the right to the open content and the Wizards (or another publisher who open content you use) can sue you for using material you don't have a right to use. Just as if you started distributing PDFs of the PHB.

I'm not a lawyer, but I deal with contracts at work.  My opinions are worth exactly what you'd pay a rando on the internet.

First, you probably get a Cease and Desist from WotC.

Assuming you neither Cease or Desist, you probably get sued in Washington state court.  I'm a little surprised I didn't see a choice of venue clause in the OGL, but Washington state probably makes the most sense.  There are still problems with that.

If you don't live or incorporate in WA, you can probably make a good argument for lack of jurisdiction in that court.  But, that's probably gonna cost you $10k, just to make that argument.  Most small press publishers can't make enough return on a book to justify that kind of cost and you could still lose and end up having to fight the case.

Let's assume you end up winning.  The next step is WotC leans on Onebookshelf to black-ball you.  It probably violates various anti-competitive business practices laws, but they would do it.  It's a much bigger deal for OBS to keep WotC happy.  You could try to countersue for that action, but that's not free either and a very tough case to win.

estar

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Re: Is Wizards "Canceling the OGL"?
« Reply #56 on: November 29, 2022, 11:03:54 PM »
I'm not a lawyer, but I deal with contracts at work.  My opinions are worth exactly what you'd pay a rando on the internet.
The point of the OGL is that an informed author can make use of some content without having to involve an IP attorney. The OGL and Creative Common that I affixed to Blackmarsh are a very specific detailed way of me saying, that you can freely make use of the content in any manner you see fit as long (The creative commons license). Or any manner you see fit if you need to use the OGL license as long as you meet the four conditions that are laid out.

Most small press publishers can't make enough return on a book to justify that kind of cost and you could still lose and end up having to fight the case.

Let's assume you end up winning.  The next step is WotC leans on Onebookshelf to black-ball you.  It probably violates various anti-competitive business practices laws, but they would do it.  It's a much bigger deal for OBS to keep WotC happy.  You could try to countersue for that action, but that's not free either and a very tough case to win.
From seeing what happened in the past, the worst a small publisher would have to really go out of their way in violating the terms before a lawsuit is part of the equation. Wizards has been pretty consistent over twenty years at leaving anybody alone who sticks with the SRD plus original work.

But far as blackballing by DriveThruRPG, if you won a court case that demonstrated that you had to right to the IP in your work I would be very surprised if Onebookshelf would still remove the work. The backlash against OBS would be immediate and everybody would know as a result of the publicity that would surround such a win.

We are over 20 years into using OGL and open content, there is a track record, people don't need to speculate just look it up at actually what happened.

For example
Fast Forward Entertainment used content they shouldn't have been using as a result they had to pulp four books.
https://web.archive.org/web/20030420202359/http://fastforwardgames.com/#

Quote
This contains official notification of conformation to the terms of the Open Gaming License version 1.0a (the OGL) and the d20 System® License version 4.0 (the d20 License) pursuant to Section 13 of the OGL and Sections 4 and 5 of the d20 License.

Fast Forward Entertainment, Inc. product number FAF2018 Enchanted Locations: Crypts & Tombs contains material from Wizards of the Coast product Monster Manual II without an independent license from Wizards of the Coast. The material used in this manner is protected under Product Identity in name and content. Fast Forward states publicly that this material is not Open Content and was used in error. No use of this material in Enchanted Locations: Crypts & Tombs is a challenge to copyright or trademark status. Furthermore, let it be known that any copies of Enchanted Locations: Crypts & Tombs in Fast Forward's possession have been destroyed.

Fast Forward Entertainment, Inc. product number FAF2010 Dungeon World contains references to the gods Gruumsh, Pelor, Merrshaulk and Hieroneous. These gods and characters are Product Identity and were used without permission or an independent license from Wizards of the Coast. Fast Forward states publicly that this material is not Open Content and was used in error. No use of this material in Dungeon World is a challenge to copyright or trademark status. Furthermore, let it be known that any copies of Dungeon World in Fast Forward's possession have been destroyed.

Fast Forward Entertainment, Inc. product number FAF2014 Dungeon World: Secrets of the Enemy Capital contains references to the gods Lolth and Gruumsh. These gods and characters are Product Identity and were used without permission or an independent license from Wizards of the Coast. Fast Forward states publicly that this material is not Open Content and was used in error. No use of this material in Dungeon World: Secrets of the Enemy Capital is a challenge to copyright or trademark status. Furthermore, let it be known that any copies of Dungeon World: Secrets of the Enemy Capital in Fast Forward's possession have been destroyed.

Fast Forward Entertainment, Inc. product number FAF2005 Rings of Power contains references to Drawmij and Gruumsh. These gods and characters are Product Identity and were used without permission or an independent license from Wizards of the Coast. Fast Forward states publicly that this material is not Open Content and was used in error. No use of this material in Rings of Power is a challenge to copyright or trademark status. Furthermore, let it be known that any copies of Rings of Power in Fast Forward's possession have been destroyed.

Almost_Useless

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Re: Is Wizards "Canceling the OGL"?
« Reply #57 on: November 29, 2022, 11:26:21 PM »
You're right, but that doesn't address the question you asked.  You asked "What happens if you fail to comply...?"  In your example, FFE complied.  They were notified of a breach and cured it (see 13 Termination) by destroying the offending material.  Flipping off WotC and continuing to sell the books would have been failure to comply.

As for OBS standing with small publishers, I would never bet on that.  We've already seen them take action against people just for wrong-think.  I have a really hard time believing they wouldn't choose to keep their (probably) biggest business partner happy.

And again, being right in court can be very expensive.  Let's say you break all the rules and still manage a win.  AND you get off cheap -- maybe $30k in lawyer bills.  What rpg publisher can absorb that?

Zelen

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Re: Is Wizards "Canceling the OGL"?
« Reply #58 on: November 30, 2022, 01:21:19 AM »
Complying with the OGL is easy, don't use some else's content that's not itself under OGL.

Obviously if you violate that rule, then there might be legal consequences depending on the aggrieved party and the perceived harm. But none of that prevents you from continuing to use the OGL license or content in valid ways.

Chris24601

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Re: Is Wizards "Canceling the OGL"?
« Reply #59 on: November 30, 2022, 08:00:46 AM »
Complying with the OGL is easy, don't use some else's content that's not itself under OGL.
Or you make a system distinct enough from D&D to not need the OGL at all (ex. Palladium still uses d20’s for combat, has attributes, hit points and levels, etc. but is far enough from D&D to have never needed any sort of license from TSR or WotC).

Frankly, I found that being restricted from using D&D content by not using the OGL was immensely helpful in freshening up my monster section as I had to go back to the actual myths and legends for inspiration instead of copy/pasting the same boring versions of monsters everyone else uses.

Unless that’s actually what you want (ex. you’re only interested in making and selling adventure modules for a system) then I would contend that if you’re looking to make your own system you’re better off taking the time to make the system different enough that it can pass what I informally call the “Palladium Test” and forego the OGL entirely.