2E was the first version of Advanced D&D I played.  I find it far superior to 1E in every possible way, and think it has substantial advantages over 3.5.  I think it, like Basic D&D, stands on its own as an still highly playable fantasy rpg.

2E is excellent if you want to do very story driven Epic High Fantasy Gaming in the mold of Tolkien, David Eddings, Terry Brooks, Tad Williams and Robert Jordan. Or anything like a TSR novel. It's a good game for people who like to drink and talk a lot when they game, and you can play sitting on a couch without miniatures.  It has far more "flavored crunch" than Basic without the time-consuming complexity of 3.5.  I don't think it needs redeeming.  I ran 2E for about six years, and had tons and tons of fun.

Also, 2E has the Best Settings Ever.  Hands down winner in the settings department.  While TSR tended to do everything they could to fuck up their properties, the core material for the Forgotten Realms (the Grey Box), Spelljammer, and Planescape connected to form what is easily the most detailed and exotic and yet still accessible of all fantasy settings.

2E was the first version of Advanced D&D I played.  I find it far superior to 1E in every possible way, and think it has substantial advantages over 3.5.  I think it, like Basic D&D, stands on its own as an still highly playable fantasy rpg.

2E is excellent if you want to do very story driven Epic High Fantasy Gaming in the mold of Tolkien, David Eddings, Terry Brooks, Tad Williams and Robert Jordan. Or anything like a TSR novel. It's a good game for people who like to drink and talk a lot when they game, and you can play sitting on a couch without miniatures.  It has far more "flavored crunch" than Basic without the time-consuming complexity of 3.5.  I don't think it needs redeeming.  I ran 2E for about six years, and had tons and tons of fun.

Also, 2E has the Best Settings Ever.  Hands down winner in the settings department.  While TSR tended to do everything they could to fuck up their properties, the core material for the Forgotten Realms (the Grey Box), Spelljammer, and Planescape connected to form what is easily the most detailed and exotic and yet still accessible of all fantasy settings.

Quote from: Gene Weigel;276468Honestly? No, theres nothing worth saving even those magic encyclopedias are hard to get around.

Any thoughts on the 2E core rules system itself?

Why in fuck is it so hard to isolate a game system and analyze it, without fans getting all ajibber about expansions and settings and class books and their buddy Kevin and his gay-ass Forgotten realms campaign?

Quote from: Jackalope;2764732E was the first version of Advanced D&D I played.  I find it far superior to 1E in every possible way, and think it has substantial advantages over 3.5.  I think it, like Basic D&D, stands on its own as an still highly playable fantasy rpg.

I completely agree, and had pretty much the same experience (although we sort of tried to play 1e once or twice, it was mostly just BD&D with the spells, monsters, classes, and races from AD&D added in).

Quote from: Haffrung;276482Any thoughts on the 2E core rules system itself?

Why in fuck is it so hard to isolate a game system and analyze it, without fans getting all ajibber about expansions and settings and class books and their buddy Kevin and his gay-ass Forgotten realms campaign?

Because the game is everything that's published for it.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;276489Because the game is everything that's published for it.

Because everyone owns and reads every supplement.  :rolleyes:

Quote from: jgants;276491Because everyone owns and reads every supplement.  :rolleyes:

That's missing the point.  What the publisher puts out defines what is and is not a part of the game.  What the gamer chooses to use defines only his specific campaign, not the game as a whole; it's the same reason why House Rules aren't valid in an argument about the rules of a game- it's not the user that defines the valid subject matter, but the publisher.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;276492That's missing the point.  What the publisher puts out defines what is and is not a part of the game.  What the gamer chooses to use defines only his specific campaign, not the game as a whole; it's the same reason why House Rules aren't valid in an argument about the rules of a game- it's not the user that defines the valid subject matter, but the publisher.

I'm still not getting how this backs up the arguments of people who argue that 2e has no redeeming features because they hated supplement XX.

After all, Unearthed Arcana is arguably the biggest pile of crap ever produced with a D&D logo on it, but there are still plenty of redeeming features of 1e.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;276489Because the game is everything that's published for it.

By that reasoning, 3E should be judged by the thousands of crappy splat and adventure books published for it.

I mean, when someone asks how you like your Toshiba DVD player, do you respond "Not very much - I watched Saw 3 on it last night and the movie sucked."

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;276492That's missing the point.  What the publisher puts out defines what is and is not a part of the game.  What the gamer chooses to use defines only his specific campaign, not the game as a whole; it's the same reason why House Rules aren't valid in an argument about the rules of a game- it's not the user that defines the valid subject matter, but the publisher.

I don't like miniatures. Christ, I hope Great White Games doesn't start selling Savage Worlds miniatures, because that would make my Solomon Kane game suck.

Quote from: Haffrung;276482Any thoughts on the 2E core rules system itself?

Why in fuck is it so hard to isolate a game system and analyze it, without fans getting all ajibber about expansions and settings and class books and their buddy Kevin and his gay-ass Forgotten realms campaign?

Alright but I'll try to stay positive.

The hits are slanted to make hitting easier for players and harder for monsters (most people will deny this but its true for most hits when you look at the percentages). The illusionist became "retarded" in the true sense of the word and the Gygax idea of expanding specialists from the DMG became ruined and retarded from the start in 2e (i.e. spells aren't special anymore like they were in the true illusionist and became dulled to be available for all takers so the Illsionist player lost his spells and became dead in the water.). The monstrous compendium was not just superfluously awkward (full pages in a binder) it was marred by superfluous fan expansion mentality (see Greenwood) that dogged the text making it unwieldy at best. The verbage in the two PHB and DMG is stifling and boring What else? The paladin was schmushed but there were other random schmushings one I recall was the giant troll. No psionic creatures or planars until later (which were schmushed). The permanency spell's extra spells is a fine example of the "wild and woolly" schmushing in this era. Lets not forget "skill think" starting a "push button" trend that marred the gameplay. Theres more but I can't think offhand haven't read it in a dog's age.

All that said...ENJOY! You can have it!

*sigh*

ONCE AGAIN, Dr Rotwang! has the common-sense answer that resolves the whole thing.  Ready?

2e doesn't need redemption, because it is possible to play it and enjoy it and that's what these damn games are for.

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!;276505*sigh*

ONCE AGAIN, Dr Rotwang! has the common-sense answer that resolves the whole thing.  Ready?

2e doesn't need redemption, because it is possible to play it and enjoy it and that's what these damn games are for.

Tadaa.

I think that about sums it up.

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!;276505*sigh*

ONCE AGAIN, Dr Rotwang! has the common-sense answer that resolves the whole thing.  Ready?

2e doesn't need redemption, because it is possible to play it and enjoy it and that's what these damn games are for.

Yay! Good on you Doc!

-clash

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!;276505*sigh*

ONCE AGAIN, Dr Rotwang! has the common-sense answer that resolves the whole thing.  Ready?

2e doesn't need redemption, because it is possible to play it and enjoy it and that's what these damn games are for.

I think you win this thread.