Quote from: jibbajibba;429436so this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_90aSXkP5Q
funny?
or an insult to 6million jews, 1/2 a million Rom and most of the population of Russia?

It's a completely different thing:
(1) It's comedy.
(2) It's British comedy, i.e. w/lots of irony thrown in.

The sketch is precisely funny BECAUSE these ARE the baddies. :rolleyes:

Quote from: Benoist;429437It's a completely different thing:
(1) It's comedy.
(2) It's British comedy, i.e. w/lots of irony thrown in.

The sketch is precisely funny BECAUSE these ARE the baddies. :rolleyes:

No its funny because they aren't the baddies they are just ordinary blokes who didn't realise that nazis were the badies but just liked the swanky uniforms.

:rolleyes:

I guess the French never get our humour which is why Jacques Tati had a career....

irony - like goldy and silvery only made of iron .....

Quote from: jibbajibba;429438I guess the French never get our humour which is why Jacques Tati had a career....

You know dude, at this point I could go for any British cooking insult or other I could think of, but I think I'm just going to pass on this one.

Feel free to actually address my point when you feel like it, though.

Quote from: Benoist;429443You know dude, at this point I could go for any British cooking insult

You're a saucepan.

You know what? Scratch that last post. I have a better idea.

Quote from: jibbajibba;429436so this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_90aSXkP5Q
funny?
or an insult to 6million jews, 1/2 a million Rom and most of the population of Russia?

What's your thought on Hogan's Heroes?

Before you answer: almost all of the "Nazis" were played by Jews who took the job with the caveat that their characters would always fail.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;429450What's your thought on Hogan's Heroes?

Before you answer: almost all of the "Nazis" were played by Jews who took the job with the caveat that their characters would always fail.

See my (1) point. It's comedy.

I really like Hogan's Heroes, actually.

Quote from: jibbajibba;429391In one of my earliest Cthulu games back in school one of the players decided to play a black sportsman in 1920s Boston. The GM played it acurately so the guy was banned from diners, brutalised by the police, and generally picked on. I thought it was unnecessary and gratuitous the GM just said he was being acurate and to be fair he probabaly was but it didn;t make it fun for that player.

That does sound like it was a bit extreme, and I suspect historically exaggerated.  But just out of curiosity, was the player of that character also black?

RPGPundit

I think a case can be made that Deadlands revisionism is bad because revisionism is always bad and/or because Nigger General in Deadwood is more interesting than Jim West in Wild Wild West (1999).  I agree with Ed that a game in which historical racism and sexism are completely ignored is likely to be a missed opportunity, though I don't think it is always inappropriate.

What I have tried to dispute, and where I really think the Pundit is completely wrong, is that Deadlands revisionism is bad because Deadlands demands to be taken seriously rather than enjoyed as gonzo bizarreness.  In the gonzo category we have jackalopes, hangin' judges, magic poker, steam powered ray guns and clockwork robots, wuxia pirates, and the only way to put Wild Bill down for good is to shoot him (again) with Jack McCall's gun.  In the serious category we have a timeline.  For some people, timelines are fun to look at and fun to make, like maps.  Just having a map doesn't mean that geography has been carefully considered.  It might, but sometimes you just want to have a choice of going through the forest or over the mountain pass.

Forgetting everything else, consider that in Deadlands some major political decisions and widespread public opinions are being generated by demons.  For me, that kind of takes it right out of the "Serious Alternate History with aspirations to Social Significance" category.

ESgaldil,

 Before going al "gonzo" in a game a character should have at least a pretense of plausibility.


Ever see "Silverado" ?

The Danny Glover character and his family were at least worked into that setting pretty much believably.


Now that we've gone through 10 plus pages on this topic I realize I might actually give a damn about this - because my groups tend to have at least two women players at each session. Also, I met a friend for lunch and she is interested in RPGs - she's also African-American/Black.

SO,...the topic re-gained a bit of relevance for me today.

IF I was going tyo run "DEADLANDS" I'd say to hell with their 'official' timeline and just run it as if there was a spell backfire or mis-cast that brought magic back into the world the year that the Civil War ended.

Plenty of Blacks served on the Northern side might strike out for the west after serving in the military  - and take their families with them.

All sorts of possibilities.


- Ed C.

I have no objection to your proposal, Ed, and I'd probably enjoy your campaign.  However, I think plausibility can be maintained in the actions and motives of a character without forcing every setting to have a plausible basis.  There's a time for history class, and there's a time for TOON, and I submit that despite making use of many real places, dates, and people, Deadlands consistently demonstrates its proclivities for over the top absurdity, which is why I object to the Pundit's specific criticism.

I would actually call Silverado an example of mild whitewashing, in that the white protagonists and all sympathetic characters are portrayed as being completely colourblind with respect to Glover's character.  There are references to systemic racism existing in Chicago and Georgia, but the actual events onscreen show racism as something only criminals and idiots demonstrate.

Quote from: Esgaldil;429479I would actually call Silverado an example of mild whitewashing, in that the white protagonists and all sympathetic characters are portrayed as being completely colourblind with respect to Glover's character.  There are references to systemic racism existing in Chicago and Georgia, but the actual events onscreen show racism as something only criminals and idiots demonstrate.

Not really 'whitewashing'.

 As I've pointed out earlier in this thread (and maybe one other thread) many blacks went out west because of the possibility of more freedom and respect than they had ion the East. It didn't always work out in their favor - but there were areas where it didn't matter you looked likle as long as you helped out each other and showed competency at a needed skill.

There was a 'second chance' aspect to some towns and camps in the old west.  Not every person is going to be a bastard toward others - sometimes people choose to be nice or even good. thats probably why Humankind has lasted as long as it has.


- Ed C.

Quote from: Esgaldil;429472consider that in Deadlands some major political decisions and widespread public opinions are being generated by demons.  For me, that kind of takes it right out of the "Serious Alternate History with aspirations to Social Significance" category.

People should read that quote 5 times before they post again on this topic.

Quote from: RPGPundit;429465That does sound like it was a bit extreme, and I suspect historically exaggerated.  But just out of curiosity, was the player of that character also black?

RPGPundit

Nope the player was white. I think I went to the whitest school in the whitest town in the whitest county of the UK. There were two black guys in a school of 1000 I knew one of them cos he did boxing and another cos he dated my sister for a bit.
I suspect the situation was exagerated by the GM but from later reading not as much as I thought at the time.

Quote from: Koltar;429482Not really 'whitewashing'.

 As I've pointed out earlier in this thread (and maybe one other thread) many blacks went out west because of the possibility of more freedom and respect than they had ion the East. It didn't always work out in their favor - but there were areas where it didn't matter you looked likle as long as you helped out each other and showed competency at a needed skill.

There was a 'second chance' aspect to some towns and camps in the old west.  Not every person is going to be a bastard toward others - sometimes people choose to be nice or even good. thats probably why Humankind has lasted as long as it has.


- Ed C.

You see I think that that is a bit naive, which is sweet but ultimately doesn't support this discussion (as an aside in the Dogs in the Vineyard thread you seemed to indicate some LDS attachment how do you reconcile that with your obviously modern liberal views on race and gender - apologies if I am mis-remembering).
I mean you live in a country where some states had segregated schools until the 1960s and the KKK is still an active force. If you really think that the Western frountier of the 1860 - 1890 was a utopia of social progressiveness then you should read a book as opposed to watching Danny Glover movies.... just saying.

But the key was posted by Esgaldil and CRKrueger. Its a gonzo mismash of so much stuff that its obviously not supposed to be taken any more seriously than Hogan's Heroes.

But congrats on The Pundit for generating 10 pages of posts on it