Quote from: StormBringer;427653Because the Christians in those other countries aren't raging assholes that vomit hatred and intolerance while demanding everyone bows to their superior morality and scream like spoiled infants...

Takes one to know one, huh?

Quote from: StormBringer;427653Or, to put it more simply, you are arguing in favour of a much more Liberal Christianity right now.

Be sure to tell RPGPundit about how Liberal the Catholic Church is. :rolleyes:

Quote from: StormBringer;427653It has nothing to do with my approval, it's that they are wrong.  Rabbits don't chew their cud, the earth wasn't made in six days, and donkeys don't speak.

And plenty of religious people are just as convinced that they are right and you are wrong.  But, I know, you just know you are right because everyone you know thinks just like you do, right?

Quote from: StormBringer;427653Further, the Texas textbook folks aren't arguing to have classes more inclusive of conservative ideas, they are re-writing history in an attempt to remove any hint of progressive ideas from the curricula because the whole conservative ideology is dying out from attrition and irrelevance.

They are doing exactly what liberals have been doing for decades.  Conservatives have finally woken up, read Saul Alinsky, and decided to start playing the same game that liberals have been playing for decades and the left doesn't like it one bit.  No, sir, not one bit.  But of course you don't mind all the conservative ideas that were removed because that serves your political ends.  Stop pretending that you are outraged as a matter of principle.  It's all politics.  Yeah, liberals love "more inclusive" just so long as they control the overall narrative and conservatives don't get too uppity and actually want to drive the agenda.

As for the conservative ideology dying out from "attrition and irrelevance", have you been asleep since 2008?

Quote from: StormBringer;427653There's your problem; history has not been written exclusively by white Christian men.

I never said it was.  But let's not pretend that Molly Pitcher or Betsy Ross played as large of a role in the Revolutionary War as George Washington or Ethan Allen did.  

Quote from: StormBringer;427653Those two magic words don't exonerate all culpability.  The agenda that teaches only white Christian history is far more damaging than any of the invented 'political correctness' you care to rail against.

Wow, you really are swimming in the Kool Aid, aren't you?  

The term "political correctness" was first coined by academic leftists who used it literally, to judge the correctness or incorrectness of an idea through a political lens.  Neo-conservatives, themselves once leftists, realized how absurd the term was and proceeded to beat leftists with it mercilessly and they've been whining about it ever since.  And the reason why it's so effective is that anyone who has listened to a leftist blather on and on for any period of time (i.e., just about anyone who has gone to college) and hasn't become one (or has gotten better with age) knows exactly what the term means.

Quote from: StormBringer;427653Why should they get vouchers?  What happened to limited government and personal responsibility?  Stop looking for a government handout and take the responsibility for raising your kids they way you want instead of whining about it.

If the state stopped taking massive amounts of my money to run the school system (I live in New Jersey, by the way), then it wouldn't be so much of an issue.  Cutting taxes and giving the public schools less would work just as well if you insist on me adopting a heartless "limited government and personal responsibility" approach, so I can go with that, too.  Better?

Quote from: StormBringer;427653I am all for schools teaching religion.  But you don't want that.  When you say 'religion', you mean 'very specific sects of Protestant Christianity'.  If the schools started teaching Pastafarianism or Hindu myth, you would be up in arms and taking to the streets.

"Pastafarianism" isn't a religion, but you know that, don't you?  And if you teach Hindu religion as "myth", that's not really teaching religion, now is it?

I don't live in the Bible Belt.  I live among what is probably one of the largest populations of Asian Indians (i.e., Hindus) in the United States.  I've been to Bar and Bat Mitzvahs in Orthodox, Conservative, and Reformed synagogues.  A friend had a pagan wedding.  Another friend and former apartment mate of my wife is a Shiite Muslim.  I watched a centuries-old Shinto ritual while I lived in Japan and wandered the temple complex at Nikkō, consisting of both Buddhist and Shinto temples, and understand why the Japanese have both side-by-side.  So, frankly, I think you have no clue what I mean when I say "religion".  

And, of course, you ignored my main point which is that your "just do homeschooling" suggestion isn't all that satisfying when you are on the losing side of the debate, is it?

Quote from: StormBringer;427653You don't have a middle ground, John.

And, frankly, I think you are so far left that you can't even see the middle from where you are standing.

Quote from: StormBringer;427653Except the wealthy.  The wealthy are allowed to improve their lifestyle through force of the government, right?  Or did you really think they "worked hard" to get all that money?

Yes, jackass, a great many of them did "work hard" to get that money.  Lots of them took risks that other people are afraid to take, too.  Do you really think most people who lived through the Great Depression remained wealthy through that period and just had things easy their entire life?  Have you ever even talked to anyone who lived through the Great Depression?  Plenty of them became fairly wealthy by the time they retired.  Think they didn't deserve it?

I've worked in enough entrepreneurial start-ups where people regularly work around the clock, both in the office and and home, come in on weekends, never take vacations, and travel constantly to earn their money.  Some of them are fairly wealthy because, yes, they worked hard.  The same pattern of success is repeated around the globe by middleman minorities who manage to succeed despite murderous persecution at the hands of the majority -- thrift, education, and hard work.  Others get wealthy because they took risks and made sacrifices to get where they are.  So, yes, people can "work hard" to get ahead so long as they save and their idea of "working hard" isn't doing something that a high school graduate could do just as well for a lot less.

Quote from: StormBringer;427653I would ask what you think the underlying cause of the recent recession is, but I have a feeling it would include more conservative boogey-men like the Fair Housing Act or some other non-sense about how the government forced - forced I tell you! - all those helpless banks to give mortgages to people with bad credit.

And I'd ask you, but I'm sure you are going to tell me equally predictable left-wing bogeymen as the cause, right?

Have you ever actually worked in government.  I have.  Let's just say that any faith that you might have that government will stick it to the rich and powerful is sadly misplaced, regardless of which party is in charge.

Quote from: StormBringer;427653As reality has a well-known liberal bias, I will leave you to your bizarro alternate reality where rich white people are being savagely repressed by the hordes of poor folks and have no protections against the depredations.  I mean, it is the ultimate role-playing game, I suppose.

If by "reality" you mean "What I read on the DailyKos, Huffington Post, Media Matters, and see on MSNBC", then I can see where you'd think that.  

Quote from: StormBringer;427653Yes, I was.  I was saying that seems to be the only argument of which you are capable.

Whatever.

Quote from: John Morrow;427664If by "reality" you mean "What I read on the DailyKos, Huffington Post, Media Matters, and see on MSNBC", then I can see where you'd think that.

You're having a great stoush with SB and I don't want to dogpile you, but you're greatly mistaken in this.  Over the last 2000 years, religious conservatives have asserted that: the earth is flat and is orbited by the sun, the value of pi is 3.0, children and women should be beaten regularly, feminism will destroy civilisation, ditto jazz music, nations will fall to communism like dominos (on the assumption that non-whites have no agency or intelligence), that Iraq was loaded up with WMD, and that scientists worldwide are motivated by a desire to destroy Christianity and capitalism.

That's just a partial list of the things the right has been completely, unarguably wrong about.  Reality has consistently defied conservative predictions, so surely you can understand why current accusations of muddle-brained liberal dogma are disregarded.

And, yes, communism.  Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

Quote from: Hairfoot;427671You're having a great stoush with SB and I don't want to dogpile you, but you're greatly mistaken in this.  Over the last 2000 years, religious conservatives have asserted that: the earth is flat and is orbited by the sun, the value of pi is 3.0, children and women should be beaten regularly, feminism will destroy civilisation, ditto jazz music, nations will fall to communism like dominos (on the assumption that non-whites have no agency or intelligence), that Iraq was loaded up with WMD, and that scientists worldwide are motivated by a desire to destroy Christianity and capitalism.

No, I'm not greatly mistaken in this.

Religious conservatives also include the father of modern genetics and inheritance (Gregor Mendel, a monk) and the guy who first understood elliptical orbits (Johannes Kepler).  On the flip side, politicized science has led to the deaths of tens of millions when, for example, the Chinese tried to implement Trofim Lysenko's theories during the Great Leap Forward.  Science was also behind much of the racism and eugenics in the late-19th and early-20th centuries.  And, of course, you conveniently ignore the assaults on science from the left.

The assumption that nations would fall to communism had little or nothing to do with the idea that "non-whites have no agency or intelligence" but with actual communist expansion and aggression.   Perhaps you missed what a Hell-hole North Korea is, North Vietnam conquering South Vietnam, the Killing Fields of Cambodia, and the cause of the starvation in Ethiopia, or doesn't the massive suffering and slaughter of non-whites matter to you?

Just about everyone believed that Iraq had WMDs them at the time.  Saddam Hussein wanted people to believe he had WMDs and Muslim dissidents, who wanted the United States to attack, provided faulty intelligence, just as Muslim dissidents who wanted the United States to attack provided faulty intelligence a few years earlier of genocide in Kosovo.  You are aware that the UN never found those mass graves or evidence of widespread genocide in Kosovo, either, aren't you?  Yeah, I know.  It's easy to ignore the mistakes the left makes when people will sweep them under the carpet for you.  

Quote from: Hairfoot;427671That's just a partial list of the things the right has been completely, unarguably wrong about.  Reality has consistently defied conservative predictions, so surely you can understand why current accusations of muddle-brained liberal dogma are disregarded.

The left, throughout the 20th Century (and often still, in the case of Mao, Castro, and others) supported and apologized for governments and ideologies that murdered 100-170 million people, including the Khmer Rouge when they were fighting to take over Cambodia.  But that all matters a lot less than George W. Bush being wrong about WMDs in Iraq, right?  

Quote from: Hairfoot;427671And, yes, communism.  Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

So the left being wrong about communism was only a little thing?  What's 100-170 million dead people when you don't know any of them, right.

I can sit here and debate these talking points around and around in circles if you really want (I'm very patient that way), but this isn't really the place for it.

Please note that I'm not claiming that reality has a right-wing political bias.  What I really believe is that reality is frustratingly inconsistent with how any political ideology would like it to be, which is why there continues to be competing political ideologies rather than one winning.

Here's my little story about the relationship between states' rights and actual liberty.  

Once upon a time, there were 13 prisons, each with their own warden - Warden Alpha, Warden Beta, Warden Gamma, and so on.  These Wardens made all the rules for the inmates, and while some of them were spitefully cruel and others rational and efficient, all of them were concerned first and foremost with keeping their prisoners incarcerated.  One day, supreme overlord Adam Weishaupt had all of these Wardens killed and replaced by subwardens, each of whom worked for him and had to obey his commands.  Years later, demonstrations and riots were observed in the first of the prisons, but not for release or better conditions - these riots were held in memory of good old Warden Alpha, and a demand for a return to free, independant wardens.

Quote from: John Morrow;427618The government of France funds Catholic schools.

Not really. Religious private schools in France work under contract with the Republic. Meaning, they employ the same teachers as public schools, teaching the same program as public schools, but they're free to develop religious education on the side which is paid by the parents, not the state. Parental fees actually pay all the stuff that's not part of the public program. Private religious schools have to follow the public program and can't skip Darwin or other sensitive topics on religious grounds. It took decades of struggle to get crosses and priests away from classrooms. We don't cut them any slack, especially the Catholics.

Quote from: boulet;427693Not really. Religious private schools in France work under contract with the Republic. Meaning, they employ the same teachers as public schools, teaching the same program as public schools, but they're free to develop religious education on the side which is paid by the parents, not the state. Parental fees actually pay all the stuff that's not part of the public program. Private religious schools have to follow the public program and can't skip Darwin or other sensitive topics on religious grounds. It took decades of struggle to get crosses and priests away from classrooms. We don't cut them any slack, especially the Catholics.

Fair enough, but that's still more permissive than what's allowed in the United States right now.

Quote from: John Morrow;427706Fair enough, but that's still more permissive than what's allowed in the United States right now.

More permissive? When it comes to school programs all is centralized. I don't know the American educational system well but it seems to me local authorities get more elbow room.

Quote from: boulet;427723More permissive? When it comes to school programs all is centralized. I don't know the American educational system well but it seems to me local authorities get more elbow room.

Local authorities have to do what big government tells them to do (teach kids to pass a test), otherwise they get less funding. It is a miracle that kids in public school learn anything at all these days. Thanks Ted and George. Thanks a lot.

I don't know how anyone can read the Deadlands setting and take it this seriously. It is neither racist nor enlightened. It is just plain goofy and not particularly good alternate history. But the game has zombies, ghosts, and other strange stuff in it.... so there you go. It isn't realistic at all. I really don't think it was meant to be.

What was the original intention of the public school system, besides a glorified free babysitting service?

It's all a question of perspective. In some respects France is more permissive than the US with school programs, and in others, it isn't. The cultural fundamentals are very different, so you can't really compare the two situations.

Quote from: ggroy;427730What was the original intention of the public school system, besides a glorified free babysitting service?

In France it was in part to eradicate regionalism, regional languages, make all citizens educated and literate at the same source, to both increase the baseline education of the population, and ensure that all children are raised with the same Republican values.

So it's absolutely not *just* out of the goodness of their hearts they initiated those public education programs.

Quote from: Benoist;427732In France it was in part to eradicate regionalism, regional languages, make all citizens educated and literate at the same source, to both increase the baseline education of the population, and ensure that all children are raised with the same Republican values.

So it's absolutely not *just* out of the goodness of their hearts they initiated those public education programs.

Sounds just like everywhere else.  Indoctrinating kids with nationalism.

They know very well it is an exercise in futility in changing the minds of adults.  Easier to manipulate the minds of kids.  :rolleyes:

Quote from: Daztur;427602Exactly, for the most part the North was pretty willing to compromise about the slavery issue along states rights lines, what blew up the pre-Civil War compromise was the south being unwilling to compromise and demanding pro-slavery policy be extended north over the protests of the local state governments. Saying that states rights was a higher priority than slavery for the south is deeply ignorant at best.

Well the North did not like the idea of what they called "Slave Power".  They took a hard line after Dred Scott and the Fugitive Slave Law and many Northern moderates now found themselves allied with the Abolitionists.  The results was that BOTH sides now under the control of hard liners and the result was civil war.

Quote from: John Morrow;427664Takes one to know one, huh?

Really?  That is all you have?  Sad.

QuoteThe term "political correctness" was first coined by academic leftists who used it literally, to judge the correctness or incorrectness of an idea through a political lens.

This is an absolute right-wing propaganda lie.  The only people who have ever used the term 'political correctness' outside of the PoliSci classroom are conservatives who want to defend their casual racism.

Quote...adopting a heartless "limited government and personal responsibility" approach...

Whoa, there, Chester!  Isn't that the very cornerstone of conservative ideology?

Quote"Pastafarianism" isn't a religion

Why isn't it?

QuoteAnd if you teach Hindu religion as "myth", that's not really teaching religion, now is it?

All religion is myth, even yours.  I will assume from your answer, however, that teaching Hinduism in place of Christianity would get you down to the school board meeting as fast as physics would allow.

 

QuoteSo, frankly, I think you have no clue what I mean when I say "religion".  

"Some of my best friends are non-Christian!!"

QuoteAnd, of course, you ignored my main point which is that your "just do homeschooling" suggestion isn't all that satisfying when you are on the losing side of the debate, is it?

So, you don't care about education particularly, you are just aggrieved from being on the losing side of the debate (and history!) for so long.  Gotcha.

QuoteAnd, frankly, I think you are so far left that you can't even see the middle from where you are standing.

John, you don't even have a concept of the middle.  You weasel around everything and demand everyone meet you on your terms.  For example, if I thought for a second that public schools would offer a course in theology that encompassed all faiths and philosophies, and a general study of religion and philosophy, I would be in the front lines fighting for that.  But you know very well that 'religion' means 'my version of Christianity', and you have no conceptual framework to understand why teaching any particular religion in a public school is a bad thing.

QuoteYes, jackass, a great many of them did "work hard" to get that money.  Lots of them took risks that other people are afraid to take, too.  Do you really think most people who lived through the Great Depression remained wealthy through that period and just had things easy their entire life?  Have you ever even talked to anyone who lived through the Great Depression?  Plenty of them became fairly wealthy by the time they retired.  Think they didn't deserve it?

That is a really big non-sequitur.
EDIT:  Almost forgot, my grandparents were around at the beginning of WWI, around 1915-6, and died 70-odd years later.  Your assumptions that the only person in the world with any personal experience in anything is named 'John Morrow' is getting really fucking old.

QuoteSo, yes, people can "work hard" to get ahead so long as they save and their idea of "working hard" isn't doing something that a high school graduate could do just as well for a lot less.

Those people are 'comfortable', or perhaps 'well-off'.  They aren't 'wealthy', and they are no where near 'rich'.

QuoteHave you ever actually worked in government.  I have.  Let's just say that any faith that you might have that government will stick it to the rich and powerful is sadly misplaced, regardless of which party is in charge.

Among other jobs, I have worked for the government.  And I am fully aware of how the political machine works these days, I don't need the lecture.  I understand that the only way you can communicate is through hierarchical language, but that is part of why your world is crumbling around you.

QuoteIf by "reality" you mean "What I read on the DailyKos, Huffington Post, Media Matters, and see on MSNBC", then I can see where you'd think that.  

Your tears of unhinged rage at the world you can't control anymore nourishes me.

QuoteWhatever.

Frustration makes for a nice dessert.

I wanted to snag this part and drop it in at the end.

QuoteBe sure to tell RPGPundit about how Liberal the Catholic Church is. :rolleyes:

Ok, John, I am pretty much done with this.  There is far more to  Christianity than the Catholic church, but that interferes with your  internal dialogue, and I am wholly uninterested in being the platform for  you to get your talking points out as quickly and as frequently as  possible.

As usual, your collision with the external world has put you over the edge, so I will leave you to your inconsolable rage with a reality that refuses to conform to your wishes.