Well, what the title says... I was thinking today, about how you could release a game called "D20 Fantasy", that used D20 rules (not True20 or some other variant), but that wasn't D&D; that didn't use the D&D sacred cows, but played like a bog-standard fantasy game without all the D&Disms.

I'm not sure it would be a good thing to release a "D20 Fantasy" or not (at least, from a business perspective it wouldn't make much sense for WoTC to do it), but I also got to wondering if there was already a D20 fantasy game other than D&D that people felt could be considered the archetypal "D20 Fantasy"?

RPGPundit

D&D is the archetypal D20 fantasy game. You peg D&D as being possessed of some it's own D&Disms, but any other fantasy game out there I see tends to stake its own little corner.

Thieves' World and Black Company come close to handling a more fantasy novel derived experienced, unsurprisingly. Grim Tales is flexible, but exists in the more magic-light end of the pool. Iron Heroes covers more high action material.

Quote from: RPGPunditI was thinking today, about how you could release a game called "D20 Fantasy", that used D20 rules (not True20 or some other variant), but that wasn't D&D; that didn't use the D&D sacred cows, but played like a bog-standard fantasy game without all the D&Disms.

Er, how do you define "bog-standard fantasy game" except by D&D?  It seems to me that if you came out with a fantasy game which was totally unlike D&D, it wouldn't be considered bog-standard.  For example, what about a game based on Harry Potter and similar fantasy?

Quote from: RPGPunditWell, what the title says... I was thinking today, about how you could release a game called "D20 Fantasy", that used D20 rules (not True20 or some other variant), but that wasn't D&D; that didn't use the D&D sacred cows, but played like a bog-standard fantasy game without all the D&Disms.

I'm not sure it would be a good thing to release a "D20 Fantasy" or not (at least, from a business perspective it wouldn't make much sense for WoTC to do it), but I also got to wondering if there was already a D20 fantasy game other than D&D that people felt could be considered the archetypal "D20 Fantasy"?

RPGPundit

Interestingly, one game that sort of looks and feels like a d20 game without being one (and without some of the sacred cows) is LotR. It's a pity the game was botched by Steve Long, who didn't much care for it.

But it has many traditional elements you will find in D&D and CODA is very similar to D20, if not as well done.

What are the D&D sacred cows, exactly?  Modrons?  Beholders?  The five-foot-step?

Until I know what we're excising, I can't grasp what this new game would look like.

Like others, I'm perplexed as to what separates "bog-standard fantasy" from "D&Disms". It's an interesting question in itself. One way I'd go about it would be to look at what differentiated original D&D, Basic, & the three core AD&D books, on the one hand, from the few other early fantasy games of the 70's and early 80's, such as T&T, The Fantasy Trip, High Fantasy (Dillow), Dragonquest, Runequest, C&S, EPT etc.

At that time D&D was still defining its genre and while other games undoubtedly were influenced by D&D in one way or another, they were less likely, in my opinion, to either copy D&D or deliberately attempt to "break the mold" by striking out in weird directions. (RQ & EPT however are exceptions, and may be less useful for reconstructing "standard fantasy".)

Of course another source is fantasy literature up to the 70's, before D&D could influence it in the other direction. But that is hard to use since modern fantasy had already fractured into a variety of authors' visions; it's probably easier to use games themselves as lens into what elements were common to popular concepts of fantasy.

That said, here are some things I consider to be D&Disms:

Beholders

Good dragons

Dragons ranked by color

Extensive catalog of evil humanoid races (kobolds, goblins, hobgoblins, orcs, gnolls, etc.); as opposed to just one or perhaps two such races
Vancian spell-slot magic. I argue that this is a D&Dism because so many who saw it, back in the day, immediately scratched their heads and thought "That isn't how magic works", and proceeded to develop various spell point systems.

Drow

Mind Flayers

The Cleric class in its particulars

Paladins in their particulars

Alignment--although it's evolved into a shorthand personality/social philosophy mechanic, it still has definite traces of the idiosyncratic Moorcockian origins (such as the idea of True Neutrals devoted to the balance)

Many aspects of the PC races...although it's very hard to eliminate the obvious debts to Tolkien without eliminating nonhuman PCs altogether.

I can come up with more but I gotta run.

D&D is awash with inbuilt setting assumptions.  It's part of what I like about it, but is also frustrating when seeking for a more "generic" system, because thanks to so many of those inbuilt assumptions and tidbits it somehow always just feels like anothe D&D game we're just calling by another name.

These are D&D / WotC specific: beholder, gauth, carrion crawler, tanar'ri, baatezu, displacer beast, githyanki, githzerai, mind flayer, illithid, umber hulk, yuan-ti.

They're specifically exluded from the d20 SRD / OGL.

If you use them in another game their lawyers may cast Power Word Litigation on you.

Quote from: StuartThese are D&D / WotC specific: beholder, gauth, carrion crawler, tanar'ri, baatezu, displacer beast, githyanki, githzerai, mind flayer, illithid, umber hulk, yuan-ti.

They're specifically exluded from the d20 SRD / OGL.

If you use them in another game their lawyers may cast Power Word Litigation on you.

It says that on the Monster manual?
'Cause I didn't know?
But those weren't invented by Wotc, I think.

Levels
Escalating ablative hit points
Alignments
Classes, in particular fighters, thieves, warrior priests and non-religious magicians
Fire and forget spells

DnD is full of details which aren't particularly generic and give it a flavour all its own.  Now, odds are so would any generic fantasy system, but DnD certainly has plenty of things that recognisably make it DnD.

To be honest, if you look at 3e and compare it to past editions, the stuff that survived was the stuff that makes DnD DnD, and by and large they're not particularly generic fantasy things.

In answer to the original question though, no.  If I want a d20 fantasy game then DnD is the big beast and nothing else really fits a similar niche.

Burning Wheel D20?

The other non D&D line of tradition is
Runequest.
Divide percentages by five, and you have:

D20 Generic Fantasy

Quote from: UmaSamaIt says that on the Monster manual?
'Cause I didn't know?
But those weren't invented by Wotc, I think.

They didn't invent them, but Wizards does not make those critters available as part of their Open License.  Why they feel protective of the carrior crawler I don't know.

I'd say Mongoose's Conan.

Many fewer classes, no Vancian magic, different feel to combat, very very few magic items and no alignment.

That's a bunch of slain sacred cows right there.