Quote from: HinterWelt;295378Unfortunately, this can be said of just about any mechanic by any designer.

I don't see it as unfortunate. I like RPGs with personality.

Quote from: droog;295381I don't see it as unfortunate. I like RPGs with personality.

However, from the point of view that Clash and I share, it is unfortunate. I understand your point though and to a degree I agree with it. To have a certain flavor to a game i what attracts me. However, I prefer that flavor in the setting where I find it more easily ignored, altered or emphasized as fits with the group's preferences. This is a part that I believe Clash and I differ on. He is better with system than I and is usually able to build his systems to be more neutral or optional than I do. Part of my "more trad than trad" thing.

Quote from: HinterWelt;295385However, from the point of view that Clash and I share, it is unfortunate. I understand your point though and to a degree I agree with it. To have a certain flavor to a game i what attracts me. However, I prefer that flavor in the setting where I find it more easily ignored, altered or emphasized as fits with the group's preferences.

Wouldn't this make it difficult to emulate a genre, then ? Just as how a recurring theme in CoC was the loss of sanity in the face of unimaginable horror and madness as a consequence of the use/abuse of power in UA, I assumed, clash was aiming for something similar considering the genre he was emulating - Patrick O'Brian novels but also the Horatio series.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: HinterWelt;295378I hate to say it though, Clash, but it is your interpretation, your view, your perspective, your philosophy that is informing that mechanic. It is the designer enforcing their philosophy through their mechanics. Unfortunately, this can be said of just about any mechanic by any designer. The real question becomes can it be molded to reflect the group play and should it?

No, actually. It is the designer enforcing the collective philosophy of the authors/directors of the genre he is emulating, not his own philosophy. Putting my philosophy in there would screw it up entirely.

-clash

Quote from: David R;295380Hmm. What themes of the genre are you trying to emulate and how is it reflected in the rules. (more or less what kyle said actually). I mentioned this earlier with regards to IHW.



Regards,
David R

In regards to In Harm's Way, these themes include: (as Kyle said) it is better to be loved or feared, but you can't be both (Honor/Practicality); High birth gives you a leg up (Influence); Fortune rewards the bold (Notice); and honorable scars are the marks of glory (Debilitating Wounds).

These are themes of the genre, but they are not *my* themes. They reflect nothing of me.

-clash

Quote from: David R;295396Wouldn't this make it difficult to emulate a genre, then ? Just as how a recurring theme in CoC was the loss of sanity in the face of unimaginable horror and madness as a consequence of the use/abuse of power in UA, I assumed, clash was aiming for something similar considering the genre he was emulating - Patrick O'Brian novels but also the Horatio series.

Regards,
David R

It depends on your method of emulation. You have basically two methods, System and Setting. Most folks can relate to system because it is quantifiable;i.e. CoC has a sanity meter. However, it is also an expression of your philosophy how you implement the mechanic. Do you view insanity as a strength or a weakness? Do you view insanity as a play ending issue? Now, you might say it is defined by the genre and it might well be, but it also can be an expression of how you view life;i.e. your philosophy. My views on insanity are much more...liberal...than some would have. I would not have it be a game ender and in some cases it would make you stronger, in some weaker. Another designer might make it a game ender. Another still might make it a detriment across the board.

However, as a setting element you allow the group to define it. More than that, you allow situational definition. To be sure, the two methods can and do overlap, a meter to indicate sanity followed by the player or group defining the form the insanity takes.

And of course, this is just my take on it. I could be wrong.

Quote from: flyingmice;295450No, actually. It is the designer enforcing the collective philosophy of the authors/directors of the genre he is emulating, not his own philosophy. Putting my philosophy in there would screw it up entirely.

-clash

No, actually, it is the designer enforcing his interpretation through his filter of the world view he holds. However, I think we are functioning with differing definitions of philosophy and world view so I will yield the point.

Quote from: flyingmice;295453These are themes of the genre, but they are not *my* themes. They reflect nothing of me.

Off course. I didn't mean to imply they did. See, this thread was about personal perspectives affecting the game. The fault may be mine. You responded to a comment off mine about themes in games ( a general comment), something Sett and I have brawled about before. In no way did I mean to imply that the themes in your published games were a reflection of your personal perspectives only that there were (IMO) themes in your games.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: HinterWelt;295456No, actually, it is the designer enforcing his interpretation through his filter of the world view he holds. However, I think we are functioning with differing definitions of philosophy and world view so I will yield the point.

Actually, enforcing is entirely the wrong word - a better word would be "enhancing". You could play in a campaign of In Harm's Way without any attention to these mechanics at all, and have a great time. A couple of my players have. Their characters still get better at what they do, they still advance, though slower, in rank, and they still can be effective at what they do.

As for the "personal filter" business, I call bullshit. Let someone who doesn't know me read the rules and from this derive my personal philosophy. I would laugh at the result. It may be a truth, but it's a meaningless and useless truth.

-clash

Quote from: David R;295458Off course. I didn't mean to imply they did. See, this thread was about personal perspectives affecting the game. The fault may be mine. You responded to a comment off mine about themes in games ( a general comment), something Sett and I have brawled about before. In no way did I mean to imply that the themes in your published games were a reflection of your personal perspectives only that there were (IMO) themes in your games.

Regards,
David R

OK - I was mixing up the two threads, David. This thread is about "your perspective on life" while yours wasn't. Apologies! Let me say then the themes I put into my games have little to no correlation to my personal perspective. I am going for genre emulation, and use the themes inherent in the genre, not themes which reflect me, my attitudes towards life, or my personal philosophy.

-clash

Actually, anything I would run currently would be far too nihilistic for anybody's liking. I could turn a game of Toon into something more depressing than a room full of goths on heroin.

There is a serious difference between "emulation of genre" and "primmadonna game designer imposing concepts".

writing a game about military operatives in vietnam, where the rules encourage thing like stress or have rules for drug addiction could be emulation of genre.
writing a game about vietnam where the PCs are mechanically obliged to commit atrocities would be Designer Fiat.

CoC's sanity rules are emulation of genre.
If someone redesigned CoC to make it impossible to use guns because CoC "isn't supposed to be about that" it'd be Designer Fiat.

Now, in Clash's particular games I've seen maybe one or two things that might be accusable as Designer Fiat, namely the idea that social class and IQ are inversely proportional values. However, to suggest that because he's incorporating the general elements of the Napoleonic Naval adventure genre he's engaging in Designer Fiat is just ridiculous.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;295564However, to suggest that because he's incorporating the general elements of the Napoleonic Naval adventure genre he's engaging in Designer Fiat is just ridiculous.

Like anyone suggested that.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David R;295580Like anyone suggested that.

Regards,
David R

I am glad you understand David even if you do not agree.