Quote from: One Horse Town;255812This is the other weak thing that gets brought up in these discussions. Because there is an objection, it is 'knee-jerk moralism'.

It is an interesting comparison, though. Because some folks who took their religion pretty seriously back in the Eighties had heard that D&D included evil magicians and summoned demons, they arrived to the conclusion that it must be denounced as an artifact of "satanic devil worship." Now actual gamers who are only familiar with Maid from forum discussions such as this seem to be talking about how it must just as obviously be a game about "underage maid rape" because it involves (possibly) underage characters and (optional) seduction rules. The whole thing is blown out of all proportion in exactly the same fashion.

Quote from: GrimGent;255815It is an interesting comparison, though. Because some folks who took their religion pretty seriously back in the Eighties had heard that D&D included evil magicians and summoned demons, they arrived to the conclusion that it must be denounced as an artifact of "satanic devil worship." Now actual gamers who are only familiar with Maid from forum discussions such as this seem to be talking about how it must just as obviously be a game about "underage maid rape" because it involves (possibly) underage characters and (optional) seduction rules. The whole thing is blown out of all proportion in exactly the same fashion.

I should point out (as i did in the original Maid thread here) that i don't include that game in what i'm talking about here. Not for me and a little creepy, to my eyes, but not the same thing at all. Well, the translation anyhow.

One Horse Town: Author of RPG is only providing tool, the actuall creative process starts at the table, among the players... we don't usually call gun industry responsible for murders commited by gun.

Quote from: Fritzs;255820One Horse Town: Author of RPG is only providing tool, the actuall creative process starts at the table, among the players... we don't usually call gun industry responsible for murders commited by gun.

Try again.

Edit; I keep forgetting this is your second language. I'll distill what i'm saying down even further. "If the outcome of play at the table is constrained by the limits on outcome that the author has included (positive reinforcement, mechanics driving a particularly focussed upon play element or omnipresent theme, etc) - the author is responsible for those results. If the outcome of play at the table is not constrained by limits from the author - the players are responsible for the results."

To me, that sums up the difference between system matters guys and most tradional games. Neither is objectively better or worse than the other. But what you do with your work and the outcomes it promotes are another matter. Notice, that by mechanics, i do not simply mean resolution mechanics, but specifically those elements meant to encourage certain behaviour and outcomes at the table.

Quote from: Fritzs;255790Just reading this Pundy's blog made me wonder if our (or your, because Pundy apparently count me as RPG hating swine) is really so fragile it can't snand any change in it's norms. Do you think, that RPGs are endangered and they need our protection? And why?

Unfortunately, I cannot read the current Pundit blog entries. The strange color choice of some kind of orange text on blacl is too rough on my eyes.

Pundit, it world be REALLY nice if you could change the current color settings on the blog.


- Ed C.

Quote from: One Horse TownIn an interactive medium such as RPGs, the author has no such control as to how his creation will eventually be used - therefore, the buck stops with him as to how the tone of the game turns out.

In an tool industry, such as hammer-making, the company owner has no control as how his tool will eventually be used-driving the nail or crushing the skull. Of course if it wasn't hammer but guns, one can predict they will be used for killing people, but still, it's the one who pulled the trigger, who is responsible, not the one who made the gun.

While system does matter to some degree (to use the tool example, gun is batter at killing people than hammer, but it's quite hard to drive the nail with it) in the end it's the players responsibility, not the authors.

Quote from: One Horse TownThe author of the book has a responsibility in creating his work. He can write those scenes (and actors play them) in many different ways. He might be trying to get a point across, he might be making a commentary, or he might be doing it for shock value or 'titilation' alone - those are called exploitation movies or 'crap' movies & books.What happens is guided by the author. It is a non-interactive medium.

Something, the author has no control over is how, the audience interprets his work. While we might agree, that, there is some common things, that everyone (or wast majority) must see, still there is a lot opened to interpretation, so it is perfectly possible, that while the author was making a commentary, the audience might read it as something made just for shock value.

Koltar: Just copy it and paste it into blank txt file using notepad. It's not the most professional solution of these problems, but it's fast and it works...

It's worth pointing out that the rape example is a poor choice for showing the IC/OOC divide. Raping PCs is an infamous way to break up a group. I play in a group that's comfortable with a fairly high level of grit and nastiness, including rape. While none of us are too bothered by it, some of the guys have had problems over the years with bystanders or sit-in players taking it the wrong way. One dude's girlfriend was pissed off at him for a week or so after she walked in midway while his evil PC was raping some NPC, frex. We're now much more careful about how we present the game when there are non-players around (We also play in a slightly more private setting - a bachelor apartment instead of a jointly-owned apartment or house).

Quote from: One Horse Town;255821I'll distill what i'm saying down even further. "If the outcome of play at the table is constrained by the limits on outcome that the author has included (positive reinforcement, mechanics driving a particularly focussed upon play element or omnipresent theme, etc) - the author is responsible for those results. If the outcome of play at the table is not constrained by limits from the author - the players are responsible for the results."

To me, that sums up the difference between system matters guys and most tradional games. Neither is objectively better or worse than the other. But what you do with your work and the outcomes it promotes are another matter. Notice, that by mechanics, i do not simply mean resolution mechanics, but specifically those elements meant to encourage certain behaviour and outcomes at the table.

I'd basically agree with that -- though to be clear, it's not like traditional games never encourage certain behavior.  But this is quite different from RPGPundit's argument in his blog.  His argument is that (1) story games are increasingly sexualizing RPGs; and (2) that sexualizing a hobby will lead to its being reviled.  

Are you also saying that any sexualized material in RPGs is bad?  If not, what RPGs are you saying are bad?  

I'd disagree with both of Pundit's points.  Based on my experience, if I pick up a random traditional RPG and a random story game, I'm about equally likely to find mildly sexualized material (i.e. racy pictures, a seduction skill); and also about equally likely to find rare actual references to sex.  

Moreover, some of my favorite RPGs are sexualized -- like the James Bond 007 RPG, Teenagers from Outer Space, and Macho Women With Guns.  I do disapprove of a lot of sexualization, but it's not that I find any sexualization bad.  It can be badly done, but it's not inherently bad.

Quote from: One Horse Town;255794The hobby will be that fragile if the preponderance of fringe interests being made into RPGs by certain types gain ground, yes.

Quote from: One Horse Town;255794Now, you might think that's an exaggeration, and frankly, it is. But it is for this reason that i've constantly 'canvassed' against that other game we all know about. Games that force you into fucked-up territory via the text, actual plays, rules and tone are vastly different to games where that sort of stuff could happen. Add to this the tight focus of storygames and if you decide to focus on a controversial subject, then you have no-where else to go with the material.

Quote from: One Horse Town;255794So why have you chosen that controversial subject?  A) Wanting to gain infamy, B) To cover a lack of talent, C) Amorality, D) Cynical marketeering.

E) All of the above.

Quote from: One Horse Town;255794Now imagine a con visited by press where we have a game on rape, sodomy & necrophilia, a game on incest (yes, i've seen this discussed) a game on cannibalism (ditto), a game on the holocaust, a game where you play doomed boy scouts, white power fantasies, the game where you roll for penis size and the other far worse stuff like squirrels. All these games are tightly focussed on their subject matter and leave (despite the defense to the contrary) you little wriggle room when compared to tradional games, to leave that focus aside. You have to make an effort.

Corrected your typo.

Quote from: One Horse Town;255794I don't want to walk into a mainstream con and find that. I don't want folk who are curious about RPGs to walk into a con and find that. You want that shit? Do it at home away from the rest of the hobby. You don't want 'faux morality' and 'prudish' behaviour in reply to your 'game'- don't post sick details on public message boards.

Cabin-squirrel.

Bill

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;255791The Maid rpg reminds me of that guy at the con who wished aloud he could grope random women's breasts, and some stupid woman said, "you can grope mine", and then the thing spread to the whole fucking con, with women ending up having to wear badges saying "yes, you can ask to touch" or "no, you can't." (Just search around LiveJournal for talks about this.)

Was he a madman...or a genius?

(edit: just joking - I don't think it was actually a good idea).

Roleplaying has always been a haven for dorks and social misfits, and it always will. Chase them away and you kill the industry, because people with "real lives" and girlfriends usually have better things to do with their time then pretend to be Legolas, Lancelot, and Merlin killing Smaug.

Don't game with them if you don't like them, but if you think that gaming can survive without their sweaty palms and allowance money, you're just a tad naive.

Quote from: GrimGent;255815...because it involves (possibly) underage characters and (optional) seduction rules.

Wait...what? Really?

Quote from: Age of Fable;255848Wait...what? Really?

What, haven't you been following the whole furore over the "Likes Them Young" trait or the brief bit in the example of play about a ten-year-old maid being humiliated by her master? Anyway, the point I was making is that while the game may include either of those things (underage characters and seduction rules), there's no necessary connection between them in play.

All this is really dumb. After all the Elmore, Caldwell and Mongoose art is there any doubt that this hobby isn't sexualized ? Let's not forget Exalted....wait nearly any White Wolf game. And still the hobby just keeps humming along. I mean really, does anyone here honestly think that the storygame crowd or the Forge with their games that have zero appeal to the majority of gamers will have any affect on this hobby ? Most times it's gamers themselves that give the hobby a bad name and not the games they play.

Regards,
David R