This is a site for discussing roleplaying games. Have fun doing so, but there is one major rule: do not discuss political issues that aren't directly and uniquely related to the subject of the thread and about gaming. While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion, sockpuppeting (using multiple and/or bogus accounts), disrupting topics without contributing to them, and posting images that could get someone fired in the workplace (an external link is OK, but clearly mark it as Not Safe For Work, or NSFW). If you receive a warning, please take it seriously and either move on to another topic or steer the discussion back to its original RPG-related theme.

Author Topic: Is RPG Optimization Psychosis?  (Read 11154 times)

VisionStorm

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2184
Re: Is RPG Optimization Psychosis?
« Reply #75 on: January 02, 2021, 02:56:05 PM »
We either roll in front of each other - in the first session, or for online games we use an online roller. So there's no real way to cheat other than using loaded dice.
Sure there is; suicide the character you don't like by doing stupidly dangerous things. Repeat until you get a result you like. Takes longer, sure, but you'll get what you're looking for eventually... you'll just annoy the rest of the group if you keep doing it too much.

Which is why the notion of Point Buy and Arrays are so popular in modern systems. It saves a lot of time and frustration by just letting the players start out with a PC they actually want to use while also preventing other forms of cheating (because the GM can easily do a "check sum" of the scores and they don't have to break from the rest of the PCs to watch them roll in the middle of a session because their last character died to make sure they aren't massaging the results).

I know random stats is a huge part of the OSR experience... and that's just one of many reasons I'm NOT an OSR fan. In my three and a half decades of experience the only thing random stat rolls are good for is stories of funny PC deaths as those who rolled crap run through PCs in ridiculous ways until they get one that doesn't suck (and the occasional even funnier story of a crap PC that a player keeps trying to suicide and fails because the dice keep saving them).

Personally, I prefer to skip that step and just get on with an actual campaign where we're playing real characters and not collections of stats we haven't even named yet because we're not sure they'll survive their first session. If I wanted THAT I'd play a more in-depth board game; same tactical decisions, no pretenses that they're actual characters with drives and goals making in-universe decisions instead of cardboard cutouts you're waiting to see if its worth even slapping a name onto.

Hell, EVEN Palladium Books; godfather of never changing core mechanics; has acknowledged how nonsense completely random stats are in RPGs. Their second edition Robotech RPG (the one with The Shadow Chronicles as part of it) actually lets you choose one of eight arrays (based on which stat you want to be highest) where the variance is, for example; Fast Reflexes and High Dexterity: I.Q. 1D4+10, M.E. 1D6+9, M.A. 1D6+8, P.S. 1D6+9, P.P. 1D6+19, P.E. 1D6+9, P.B. 1D6+10, Spd 1D6+17.

So the absolute WORST you can possibly do with that is; IQ 11, ME 10, MA 9, PS 10, PP 20 (+3 to strike/parry/dodge), PE 10, PB 11, Spd 18.

The absolute best is (remember 15 or less is no bonus); IQ 14, ME 15, MA 14, PS 15, PP 25 (+5 to strike/parry/dodge), PE 15, PB 16 (30% charm/impress), Spd 23.

Basically, the clamp on best/worst is now +2 to strike/parry/dodge (or about +/-5% from the average result) if you decide on that build.

If even Palladium Books is abandoning completely random rolls for an almost pre-determined result (it's Palladium, they can only bend so far), that just about says it all.

I've always been iffy on random ability scores and have only grown to dislike them more over the years. They provide too much variability IMO--way more than I believe exists IRL (granted, ability score values have always been kinda subjective, so it's hard to say what range of points, precisely, truly exists IRL)--and I don't like wide disparities between characters in terms of raw competence or power in my game. So I've moved more towards arrays over time.

In a d20 derived system I'm currently working on, I decided that all characters will have a base score of 10 in all abilities, with one ability starting at 14, and two starting at 12. Then your Race, Class and Subclass (which is similar to AD&D 2e Kits) selections grant you a +2 to one related ability score, each (I kinda stole this idea from PF 2e, by the way). That way all characters start with decent, but not overly high scores in their abilities that are somewhat related to their race and background, and ability scores can be determined relatively quickly.

On a side topic...I always hated the way that Palladium handled their ability scores, TBH. It uses more scores than I think are necessarily and most of them have absolutely ZERO impact in the game unless you have a score of at least 16, making them completely pointless, then if you roll a score of 16, you get an extra 1d6, which means you always skip the bonus that 16 gives you, unless you get it from one of the dozen skills that boost your stats.

Well, considering that wasn't talking to you, nor do I care what you've said... whatever...

Who you were addressing is irrelevant, since you were making broad proclamations on the topic in general that Shasarak never brought up either. And you did mention "many of you" in the part I bolded from your post, which presumably includes me, so you were talking to me or at least about me in passing. So my point still stands. :P

Eirikrautha

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1266
Re: Is RPG Optimization Psychosis?
« Reply #76 on: January 02, 2021, 03:41:46 PM »
What actually happened was that one player decided he didn't like his rolls and just flat out threw it away and rolled another. The second wasn't significantly better than the first and the rest of us mocked him for doing it. He's not tried it again.

It's not cheating as such: just exposing your immaturity as a player to the rest of your group.

If I roll bad stats (and I do, a lot) it's disappointing, but you make do with what you get. That's the game.
IIRC, there's no written rule that you have to play any character you generate (whether by a random or non-random method).
Very true.  Sometimes we'd 3d6 down the line.  Sometimes we'd 4d6 drop the lowest.  Sometimes we'd rearrange, sometimes we'd play them in order.  For a while we had a DM who'd let you roll 3d6 in order until you got a set you liked.  Some folks would roll for a half an hour at the beginning.  Whether this was based on the rules or not didn't matter.  It was all dependent on what kind of game we wanted for that campaign.

But the most "building" we did in the early editions was decide we might multi-class or dual-class in a few levels.  And, as I mentioned above, even our better statted characters were far more defined by what happened during play than any choices we made before starting.

HappyDaze

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • H
  • Posts: 5337
Re: Is RPG Optimization Psychosis?
« Reply #77 on: January 02, 2021, 04:23:40 PM »
IIRC, there's no written rule that you have to play any character you generate (whether by a random or non-random method).

I have the Mentzer Red Box Player's Manual to hand:
Quote
Now find your highest Ability Score.
If it is less than 9, you should roll all the
Scores again. You may keep the character
if you wish, but he or she probably
won't be suitable for dangerous adventuring!
However, before you discard the
character, ask your Dungeon Master
what to do. Your DM might prefer that
you play the character you rolled, especially
if you are an experienced player.
If two or more Ability Scores are less
than 6, the character may have problems
later on. This type of character should
also be discarded, unless the DM says
otherwise.
You can adjust the' Ability Scores in
step 3 (Exchange Ability Points), but first
you must decide what Class your character
will be.
Still doesn't mean you have to play them. DM's preferences should be considered,  and so too should players' preference.  After all, a DM needs playerss' preference to remain the DM of that group.

TJS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • T
  • Posts: 796
Re: Is RPG Optimization Psychosis?
« Reply #78 on: January 02, 2021, 04:39:03 PM »
We either roll in front of each other - in the first session, or for online games we use an online roller. So there's no real way to cheat other than using loaded dice.

I know random stats is a huge part of the OSR experience... and that's just one of many reasons I'm NOT an OSR fan. In my three and a half decades of experience the only thing random stat rolls are good for is stories of funny PC deaths as those who rolled crap run through PCs in ridiculous ways until they get one that doesn't suck (and the occasional even funnier story of a crap PC that a player keeps trying to suicide and fails because the dice keep saving them).
You'll likely get a story now of some 'awesome' character someone once played that could only have been generated by rolling dice.

Razor 007

  • Razor 007
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1319
Re: Is RPG Optimization Psychosis?
« Reply #79 on: January 02, 2021, 04:54:08 PM »
I am not a fan of playing with characters of vastly different power levels, outside of the martial vs caster construct.  I do not like the concepts of Feats, Feat Trees, or Optimization Builds.  That stuff turns into a game of Superheroes, instead of Heroes.

I say at Level 1:

Give Fighters a +1 to Hit, +1 to Damage, and +1 to Saves (Except Saves vs Magical Effects)

Give Casters a +1 to Hit with Ranged Spell Effects / Attacks, and a +1 to Saves vs Magical Effects (Because of their time spent studying / researching / observing the effects of Magic).

Give Thieves a +1 to succeed at all Thief Skills; and no other bonuses, outside of their class skills.
I need you to roll a perception check.....

Kyle Aaron

  • high-minded hack
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9487
  • high-minded hack
    • The Viking Hat GM
Re: Is RPG Optimization Psychosis?
« Reply #80 on: January 02, 2021, 05:20:57 PM »
Didn't watch. But here's the thing: we have point-buy, and we have random roll.

If you have point-buy, players will naturally try to get as much as they can for the points they have. They'll optimise. This is hard-wired into humans, that's why if 1 thing in the store is $100 and 2 things are $150, you get 2 - even though you actually only needed 1. That's why after the lockdowns took away commuting and gave my wife 2 hours a day to do things other than get dressed for work and walk to the train station, wait for the train and take the train to work, she's not keen to go back - she has 2 more hours to spend, and wants to spend them as best she can - the other 14 waking hours are already accounted for in work, kids, and so on.

Humans are creatures who want to best spend limited resources, like time, money and character points for "builds". Given limited spending, we look to optimise that spending, get as much as we can for it. This will always happen, and many game writer's and game master's hours have been wasted trying to stop players doing it.

But if they use random roll, that sidesteps the whole problem - assuming you consider it a problem. There's nothing to optimise during character generation. "Roll 3d6 down the line, choose the class you qualify for. Write it up."

Now, depending on the game system, there may be some optimisation later on with feats and skills as prerequisites for other feats and skills, and so on. So again, choose a different system, and avoid the entire problem.

The last point is that whatever system you use, you as game master have to emphasise to players that they're in a party of adventurers - they work together. The individual character doesn't have to be optimised for any and all situations, they just have to be good at 1 or 2 things - it's okay if they're crap at other things, because someone else in the party will be good at it. This is true of real world "adventurers who wok in a party" - soldiers. You don't expect the medic to be a crack shot, and you don't expect the machinegunner to be much of a medic.

This is a mindset thing, and unfortunately players' minds have been polluted by generations of computer games with a solo character who, by virtue of being on their own, simply has to be good at everything, and star vehicle movies with Mary Sue characters, like Tom Cruise's guy in the Mission Impossible movies. So the game master has to emphasise this to players, and construct scenarios which reward individual specialisation backed up by teamwork.

So: random roll, and teamwork. And then optimisation becomes impossible, irrelevant, and not desirable.
The Viking Hat GM
Conflict, the adventure game of modern warfare
Wastrel Wednesdays, livestream with Dungeondelver

Shasarak

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4032
Re: Is RPG Optimization Psychosis?
« Reply #81 on: January 02, 2021, 05:45:28 PM »
The fact that I play 5e far more than OSR wouldn't even phase them.
Either that or try a more forgiving game like 5e or something.

Dude...reading is fundamental...

Dude, thats the joke.

People that cant handle OSR....play 5th.
Who da Drow?  U da drow! - hedgehobbit

There will be poor always,
pathetically struggling,
look at the good things you've got! -  Jesus

Mishihari

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • M
  • Posts: 989
Re: Is RPG Optimization Psychosis?
« Reply #82 on: January 02, 2021, 05:56:08 PM »
The fact that I play 5e far more than OSR wouldn't even phase them.
Either that or try a more forgiving game like 5e or something.

Dude...reading is fundamental...

Dude, thats the joke.

People that cant handle OSR....play 5th.

You should put "I use black font for sarcasm" in your sig.  I understand your posts so much better since you made that comment.

BoxCrayonTales

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • B
  • Posts: 3313
Re: Is RPG Optimization Psychosis?
« Reply #83 on: January 02, 2021, 06:07:51 PM »
If designers don't like optimization, then they shouldn't design trap options.

Just play an ultra rules light system like RISUS or something.

Pat
BANNED

  • BANNED
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • ?
  • Posts: 5252
  • Rats do 0 damage
Re: Is RPG Optimization Psychosis?
« Reply #84 on: January 02, 2021, 08:21:59 PM »
If designers don't like optimization, then they shouldn't design trap options.

Just play an ultra rules light system like RISUS or something.
Excluded middle. RPGs aren't vital equipment where failure could mean the death of millions, they're games played by and adjudicated by humans. While it's good design to reduce the number of traps, writing a game to avoid any at all is overkill, and tends to lead to overwritten, overly conservative tomes that read like contracts. While reading well isn't that important to RPGs, the rigid, remorseless design and the stifling of creativity needed to account for all possible unexpected interactions is a powerful negative.

mightybrain

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • m
  • Posts: 454
Re: Is RPG Optimization Psychosis?
« Reply #85 on: January 02, 2021, 08:43:44 PM »
Optimising a character has very little effect on the game (as a whole) since it's a team game and all it does is make some task more or less difficult for your party. If you make it too easy, you'll just sail through to something more challenging. If you make it too hard, you'll have to re-group and come up with some other plan. The game should balance itself.

Sometimes, "we have a hulk" works; sometimes it doesn't.

Eirikrautha

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1266
Re: Is RPG Optimization Psychosis?
« Reply #86 on: January 02, 2021, 08:44:16 PM »
If designers don't like optimization, then they shouldn't design trap options.

Just play an ultra rules light system like RISUS or something.
Excluded middle. RPGs aren't vital equipment where failure could mean the death of millions, they're games played by and adjudicated by humans. While it's good design to reduce the number of traps, writing a game to avoid any at all is overkill, and tends to lead to overwritten, overly conservative tomes that read like contracts. While reading well isn't that important to RPGs, the rigid, remorseless design and the stifling of creativity needed to account for all possible unexpected interactions is a powerful negative.

Plus, there's a balance between the desire to feel that your fate is mostly in your hands or the result of your decisions and the desire for some randomness so that outcomes aren't completely predictable (and therefore boring).  A game with completely equal options then feels like no choice matters (a complaint I hear sometimes about the classes in D&D 4e).  A game where the only differences between choices is the result of the die roll feels too random.  It's not easy to create meaningful choices that frequently succeed, but fail occasionally enough to feel satisfying.  Poor options may not be intentional, just the result of imperfect attempts to create that optimal "feel"...

Eirikrautha

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1266
Re: Is RPG Optimization Psychosis?
« Reply #87 on: January 02, 2021, 08:53:35 PM »
Optimising a character has very little effect on the game (as a whole) since it's a team game and all it does is make some task more or less difficult for your party. If you make it too easy, you'll just sail through to something more challenging. If you make it too hard, you'll have to re-group and come up with some other plan. The game should balance itself.

Sometimes, "we have a hulk" works; sometimes it doesn't.

That's the beauty of a system with a DM.  The DM can adjust (or not) the challenge of the tasks depending on the team's composition and level of optimization.  It's not like there are no monsters powerful enough to challenge a party at any level.  I would never advocate purposely invalidating a player's design by constantly creating situations where their abilities are counterfeited.  But some monsters are highly intelligent, and they most certainly would do their best to exploit the weaknesses of their opponents.  So sometimes the players shine, sometimes they struggle.  C'est la vie...

Kyle Aaron

  • high-minded hack
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9487
  • high-minded hack
    • The Viking Hat GM
Re: Is RPG Optimization Psychosis?
« Reply #88 on: January 02, 2021, 11:34:31 PM »
The issue with optimisation isn't finding sufficient challenge for the PCs, that's trivial. The problem with optimisation is how bloody long players take trying to optimise it, and how it leads to shitty play - because they become insanely protective of their optimised character, and won't co-operate as well.

In the dice lie freedom.
The Viking Hat GM
Conflict, the adventure game of modern warfare
Wastrel Wednesdays, livestream with Dungeondelver

Pat
BANNED

  • BANNED
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • ?
  • Posts: 5252
  • Rats do 0 damage
Re: Is RPG Optimization Psychosis?
« Reply #89 on: January 02, 2021, 11:46:58 PM »
The issue with optimisation isn't finding sufficient challenge for the PCs, that's trivial. The problem with optimisation is how bloody long players take trying to optimise it, and how it leads to shitty play - because they become insanely protective of their optimised character, and won't co-operate as well.

In the dice lie freedom.
It also severely curtails character options, because there's generally only a handful of ways to be really optimal.