This is a site for discussing roleplaying games. Have fun doing so, but there is one major rule: do not discuss political issues that aren't directly and uniquely related to the subject of the thread and about gaming. While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion, sockpuppeting (using multiple and/or bogus accounts), disrupting topics without contributing to them, and posting images that could get someone fired in the workplace (an external link is OK, but clearly mark it as Not Safe For Work, or NSFW). If you receive a warning, please take it seriously and either move on to another topic or steer the discussion back to its original RPG-related theme.

Author Topic: Is RPG Optimization Psychosis?  (Read 11159 times)

BronzeDragon

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 244
Re: Is RPG Optimization Psychosis?
« Reply #15 on: December 31, 2020, 08:08:12 AM »
I think the whole idea of "builds" is distilled essence of cancer.

People should play a character they envision, not be led by "whatever gives the most bonuses" (as the old text file about Munchkins put it) into playing something that makes no sense.

I remember the height of the 3E fuckfest where people would say shit like "I'm playing a Fighter 3/ Paladin 2/ Divine Cocksucker 4/ Monumental Retard 8!" without stopping for a second to think what the fuck that actually meant in the world.

Now, if you truly want to play a Half-Dragonfaggot/Half-Tooth Fairy Arcane Wizkid/ Master of the Forces/ Assassin of Furries, and that happens to make sense in the world you're adventuring in, hey....more power to you. But that sort of shit would never fly at my table.

A completely different matter is a guy that wants to play his Fighter and then proceeds to choose the best possible options for his goal in terms of feats/skills/equipment. That is fine, and even hardcore roleplayers will often give their character the best possible chance of surviving combat encounters so they can get to the roleplaying they desire.

Something that happened more than 20 years ago comes to mind, though. A player in one of my Birthright campaigns rolled up a Mage, and he ended up with a couple of really low scores. He decided, very consciously, to put his 4 in Con. He was playing a Khinasi, so he also got a -1 to that, so he ended up with a Con of 3. This meant he was going to roll a D4 for HP and 75% of the time he'd end up with 1 HP for each level.

Well, that campaign went all the way to 17th level, and this guy, despite deliberately putting his mage in harm's way, simply could not get himself killed. At 17th level, he had 21 hit points. The character retired at the end of the campaign, a legend in our group. Had the player optimized that character, he certainly would've put the 8 he had rolled in Con, and dumped the 4 in Str. That would've meant no penalty to HP, and I'm pretty sure the God of Dice would've made sure that character would've been blasted in the face by the first Orog they ran across and the legend would never have been born.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"It's not that I'm afraid to die. I just don't want to be there when it happens." - Boris Grushenko

HappyDaze

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • H
  • Posts: 5337
Re: Is RPG Optimization Psychosis?
« Reply #16 on: December 31, 2020, 08:15:37 AM »
He does have a point, Combat is only a third of the 3 pillars of the game.
You're being sarcastic again, right? Your overuse of sarcastic black type makes it hard to tell sometimes.

Anyway, if we're talking about D&D 5e, then combat is more like 5/6 of the 3 pillars of the game. The other 1/6 is optional.

Abraxus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2434
Re: Is RPG Optimization Psychosis?
« Reply #17 on: December 31, 2020, 08:19:17 AM »
He is shit.  Who wants to be a sub optimal character that constantly fails all the time?  No one wants to suck the dick of failure.

Seconded.

One of the comments posted sums up how I feel aboth him and his so called video:

Give me an optimizer over those who make a "flavorful" character that is useless at the table. Then complain that somehow other players who do the opposite and can actually contribute are "optimizers". Example they make a caster with low primary casting attribute then wonder why the spells they cast have no effect on opponents. Make a low Str Fighter then wonder why they don't hit or do as much damage as the player that does the opposite. Enjoy gaming in your bubble.

These kind of players piss me off to no end as they make shitty character choices for their characters. As the above make them as flavorful as possible then can do nothing at the table and rather than accept the responsibility of their personal choices, it's everyone else fault for being optimized. I can for example complain that it's not my fault for being diabetic because I won't stop eating sugar. Somehow it's the fit and  healthy people fault that I am diabetic. If you want to make the Wizard with the 10-12 Int don't cry, bitch or complain when the spells have no effect or not as effective as the player who takes a 16-187 int.

No, but people who complain about optimization or "powergamers" are low intelligence lunatics who like to blame their personal failings on other people, and their words can be safely ignored without anything of value being lost.

This guy gets it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2020, 08:20:53 AM by sureshot »

HappyDaze

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • H
  • Posts: 5337
Re: Is RPG Optimization Psychosis?
« Reply #18 on: December 31, 2020, 08:39:23 AM »
One thing that does bug me about optimizers is when their tendency to only focus on the mechanics and ignore the fluff/flavor of a campaign world. If I'm running in Warhammer's Old World but I (for some idiotic reason) want to do it with the full range of D&D 5e rules, then the asshole hard optimizing a Winged Tiefling Hexblade Warlock is going to find that character to be suboptimal in surviving regardless of its game stats and cool powers. These types of optimizers want the world(s) to accept any choice they make because it's only the numbers that *should* matter in their eyes. Sadly, WotC has been steadily making things easier for them with worlds full of tolerance for every weird fucking thing. No thank you...I'll stick to the Old World (and with WFRP too, as I learned earlier this year that D&D 5e doesn't really do what I'm looking for in a fantasy game).

BronzeDragon

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 244
Re: Is RPG Optimization Psychosis?
« Reply #19 on: December 31, 2020, 08:50:15 AM »
Example they make a caster with low primary casting attribute then wonder why the spells they cast have no effect on opponents. Make a low Str Fighter then wonder why they don't hit or do as much damage as the player that does the opposite. Enjoy gaming in your bubble.

I agree that in the situation as is (i.e. 5E dominating the market), that is a bad thing to be doing, crippling your character intentionally.

What I do object to is a system built around the idea that if you don't have a superb stat in your primary characteristic, you're not just subpar, you're shit.

Before 3E, if your Mage had a 14 Int, he would only really encounter problems if your campaign reached 16th level (which the majority of campaigns never did). A Fighter with 12 Str was perfecly viable, since a 17 was only a +1 to hit and dmg. A Cleric with a Wis of 13 was almost as effective as one with 18 in it (sure, a few bonus spells up to 4th level and protection against mind-affecting spells, but the Slay Living of the first cleric hit just as hard).

5E math seems to be designed around characters wih at least a 16 in their primary attribute. They have literally made it so everyone must be heroic in order to be effective.

Now, knowing that, it's a good idea to not fuck your character up by putting a 12 into your primary, but I still prefer the previous design.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2020, 09:08:31 AM by BronzeDragon »
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"It's not that I'm afraid to die. I just don't want to be there when it happens." - Boris Grushenko

Charon's Little Helper

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 689
Re: Is RPG Optimization Psychosis?
« Reply #20 on: December 31, 2020, 09:21:39 AM »

Before 3E, if your Mage had a 14 Int, he would only really encounter problems if your campaign reached 16th level (which the majority of campaigns never did). A Fighter with 12 Str was perfecly viable, since a 17 was only a +1 to hit and dmg. A Cleric with a Wis of 13 was almost as effective as one with 18 in it (sure, a few bonus spells up to 4th level and protection against mind-affecting spells, but the Slay Living of the first cleric hit just as hard).

5E math seems to be designed around characters wih at least a 16 in their primary attribute. They have literally made it so everyone must be heroic in order to be effective.

Now, knowing that, it's a good idea to not fuck your character up by putting a 12 into your primary, but I still prefer the previous design.

That's a system complaint though.

The video appears to be blaming the players for actually playing said system and having "badwrongfun" in a game totally unrelated to him.


Myself - I enjoy the optimization game, but I don't want to be "that guy" either, so I generally optimize sub-par concepts and/or support characters.

I prefer systems where the skill ceiling & skill floor of character builds are close enough that no one at the table feels useless, but I do enjoy having some amount of system mastery benefit as well. There's a happy medium there that I like. (And which I've aimed for in my own system.)
« Last Edit: December 31, 2020, 09:25:38 AM by Charon's Little Helper »

BronzeDragon

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 244
Re: Is RPG Optimization Psychosis?
« Reply #21 on: December 31, 2020, 09:27:05 AM »
That's a system complaint though.

The video appears to be blaming the players for actually playing said system and having "badwrongfun" in a game totally unrelated to him.

Yeah, like I said in my first post, I think optimizing your character to do well in the system is fine.

My objections are entirely based on the "progression" that game systems have gone through in the last 20 years, making good stats more and more relevant and thus eliminating the unlikely hero (or making him extra unlikely).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"It's not that I'm afraid to die. I just don't want to be there when it happens." - Boris Grushenko

mightybrain

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • m
  • Posts: 454
Re: Is RPG Optimization Psychosis?
« Reply #22 on: December 31, 2020, 09:37:39 AM »
System mastery is, in a sense, the opposite of character optimisation. Anyone can save the kingdom with Super-paladin 2.0, but it takes a master to do it with a randomly generated peon.

Charon's Little Helper

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 689
Re: Is RPG Optimization Psychosis?
« Reply #23 on: December 31, 2020, 09:40:25 AM »
System mastery is, in a sense, the opposite of character optimisation. Anyone can save the kingdom with Super-paladin 2.0, but it takes a master to do it with a randomly generated peon.

In many TTRPGs, the character creation system IS the system mastery, or at least a big chunk of it.

VisionStorm

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2184
Re: Is RPG Optimization Psychosis?
« Reply #24 on: December 31, 2020, 09:49:34 AM »
One thing that does bug me about optimizers is when their tendency to only focus on the mechanics and ignore the fluff/flavor of a campaign world. If I'm running in Warhammer's Old World but I (for some idiotic reason) want to do it with the full range of D&D 5e rules, then the asshole hard optimizing a Winged Tiefling Hexblade Warlock is going to find that character to be suboptimal in surviving regardless of its game stats and cool powers. These types of optimizers want the world(s) to accept any choice they make because it's only the numbers that *should* matter in their eyes. Sadly, WotC has been steadily making things easier for them with worlds full of tolerance for every weird fucking thing. No thank you...I'll stick to the Old World (and with WFRP too, as I learned earlier this year that D&D 5e doesn't really do what I'm looking for in a fantasy game).

The problem lies in both, the designers, as well as people who insist on conflating ability selections, which by definition are strictly a mechanical component of the game, with their "RP". Stuff that's just for "fluff" and "flavor" or for "Muh AR PEE" and does nothing (or not much) mechanically should NOT exist as something that is codified in terms of the game rules as something you have to invest on and sacrifice your limited points (or "Feats", or whatever you get in the system to build your character) in order to write it in your character sheet. That shit belongs in your character's background, not as part of your mechanically components, which is what game abilities literally are.

That's where the problem from the players' end lies: this conflation of things that are strictly RP elements and should just be stuff that you discuss with your GM when defining your character's background with stuff that are necessarily mechanical elements that build up your character's abilities. The ONLY situation where that should be an issue is in terms of your character's abilities matching your character's purported role. So that if your character is a "Medic" then OBVIOUSLY you should have medical or healing skills or abilities as part of your selection, but the title of "Medic" itself should NOT be this mechanical game component that gives you nothing (or is mechanically crap) and exists just for "Muh AR PEE" purposes, but you still have to sacrifice points or select the correct ("but, muh gaem wurld") "class" to get.

Let "RP" be "RP" and take that stuff out of the ability selection process. And NO, codifying this crap as part of the game rules DOES NOT HELP RP. Writing garbage in your character sheet WILL NOT MAKE YOU RP BETTER. It only becomes a HINDRANCE to actual "RP", because you have to jump through hoops just to "AR PEE" shit out.

And on the designer's end there is the constant failure to make "flavorful" bullshit "Muh AR PEE" selections useful mechanically speaking. So that you end up being forced to take garbage and pretend that it's useful or adds "flavor" to you character cuz you WASTED a selection getting strictly for "Muh AR PEE", then complain that someone else does it better because (unlike you) they actually selected to stuff that's mechanically useful for what you wanted to do, or for the game in general. ALL game abilities should be useful to some extend or another, otherwise they're just a waste of space--both, in your character sheet, as well as in the game books--and they should not exist just for "Muh AR PEE's" sake, cuz that's what your character's BACKGROUND is for. If an ability does not give me anything, or if a class is complete garbage on its own, then it should either be modified to be useful or it should not exist at all. But "what about muh AR PEE?" should not be a reason to keep this garbage around.

Chris24601

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • C
  • Posts: 3326
Re: Is RPG Optimization Psychosis?
« Reply #25 on: December 31, 2020, 11:19:11 AM »
The problem lies in both, the designers, as well as people who insist on conflating ability selections, which by definition are strictly a mechanical component of the game, with their "RP".
I’ll admit, this was probably one of the harder things to get right in my own system. My ultimate solution was just to minimize the fluff associated with the mechanics down to literally just a pithy name for the ability.

For example, one ability that can be selected is called “Nothing to See Here” that lets you use your Presence stat in place of Reflexes for Stealth checks (which, depending on relative scores may be superior to gaining skill with Stealth or which might be stacked with skill in Stealth to allow an otherwise mediocre reflexes PC to be good at going unnoticed).

How does it work? Well, that’s up to you. Maybe it’s a Jedi mind trick, maybe you’re just really good at looking like you belong so no one pays attention to your walking down the hallway. The mechanical part is fixed, the RP is up to you.

The same goes for combat abilities; there’s a combat talent called “knock them around” that allows you to shift opponents you hit or knock them prone if you hit; but the how really depends on your character; a human might sweep the leg, a Minotaur might head butt them, a sprite buzzes around to throw them off balance, a dragon follows up its hit with a smack from its tail. Regardless of the RP reason, your PC is really good at knocking people around.

Sure, some things are harder to justify in multiple ways than others, but those are often very specific abilities you’re taking for a specific reason and, since there is no big fluff blurb attached to it, you’re usually taking it purely for the mechanics.

A similar hurdle was to just make it really hard to accidentally mess up a PC. This resulted in a lot of baselines just being hard-coded to not rely upon or minimize bad choices.

The basic to-hit bonus with skilled weapons, for example, is Strength+2 (min. 5). Unskilled weapon use is just Strength and has no minimum and Strength can range from -1 to 5 so, as long as you’re using a weapon you’re skilled with you’re hitting as if you had a 3 in Strength (damage will be less, but level bonuses to damage will eventually minimize the difference).

You would literally have to both tank your strength and use nothing but weapons you’re not skilled in to be completely useless. Even if you somehow accidentally started in this state, you could mostly fix it just by switching to a weapon you’re skilled in so the ONLY reason you could ever see this in game is if the player just wants their PC to suck.

Nothing can stop deliberate gimping, but I feel fairly confident in saying that my system has enough tools available that concept/RP should never have to be sacrificed for baseline mechanical effectiveness (also, because of this heavy optimization will also only yield a 5-10% performance increase over the baseline... enough to be an award, but not enough to completely eclipse everyone else playing either).


Ratman_tf

  • Alt-Reich Shitlord
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8330
Re: Is RPG Optimization Psychosis?
« Reply #26 on: December 31, 2020, 01:28:47 PM »
He does have a point, Combat is only a third of the 3 pillars of the game.

Yeah, but you can optimize the other aspects, like in Pathfinder stacking persuation to ludicrous levels.
The notion of an exclusionary and hostile RPG community is a fever dream of zealots who view all social dynamics through a narrow keyhole of structural oppression.
-Haffrung

Shasarak

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4032
Re: Is RPG Optimization Psychosis?
« Reply #27 on: December 31, 2020, 06:10:19 PM »
He does have a point, Combat is only a third of the 3 pillars of the game.

Yeah, but you can optimize the other aspects, like in Pathfinder stacking persuation to ludicrous levels.

So if you just optimise for DPR can you really even be considered to be optimising?
Who da Drow?  U da drow! - hedgehobbit

There will be poor always,
pathetically struggling,
look at the good things you've got! -  Jesus

consolcwby

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 345
  • Feel the despair!
Re: Is RPG Optimization Psychosis?
« Reply #28 on: December 31, 2020, 11:42:30 PM »
In the late 80's I was accused of being one of these "POWAH GAYMAHS", so I let the DM create a character for me. Then when, instead of fighting head on with my cleric or using healing spells, I used stealth and subterfuge - lying with a high cha, she blasted me FOR NOT PLAYING THE GAME AS INTENDED! (Of course, I was also one of the few people who would actually USE that damn 10' pole to poke around a dungeon with... which according to her was cheating! lol!)
Sigh.
So, I accused her of using her own pathos against me. She didn't know what the word meant and when I wouldn't tell her, she kicked me out. I was grateful for one thing: I was the first of many she gave the boot to! This is how I got my early 90s group going! Great to have something in common with other players!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------                    snip                    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                  https://youtu.be/ShaxpuohBWs?si

Snowman0147

  • Now Even More Frosty
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3085
Re: Is RPG Optimization Psychosis?
« Reply #29 on: January 01, 2021, 01:14:04 AM »
He is shit.  Who wants to be a sub optimal character that constantly fails all the time?  No one wants to suck the dick of failure.
The problem comes when someone makes an incompetent or useless character that gets my character killed because the game was balanced for competent characters and someone isn't pulling their weight.

A Half-Orc Mage is fine, Half-Orc mage with int 8 is an amusing liability and the joke falls flat after the first time.

That is what I meant by sub optimal.