TLDR: Scott Garibay, some Christian-SJW insider, says optimizing builds is "immature" and harmful to the RPG hobby. To the extent that optimizers should be removed, eternally!



Does he have a point or is he full of excrement?

I only watched about 5 minutes of the video. I don't give a shit how other people play their games, so talking about optimizers as some kind of movement (and doing the same to oppose them) means jack shit to me. At my table, optimizers are welcome--until they start telling others that they are doing things wrong. They then move to the "shut up" and, if not followed, to the "get out" phase. If someone else asks for their guidance on a build, more power to them (literally), but it has to be sough out advice or it's unwelcome.

Sorry, my eyes glazed over within the first minute.

He is shit.  Who wants to be a sub optimal character that constantly fails all the time?  No one wants to suck the dick of failure.

Quote from: Theory of Games on December 30, 2020, 11:53:32 PM
TLDR: Scott Garibay, some Christian-SJW insider, says optimizing builds is "immature" and harmful to the RPG hobby. To the extent that optimizers should be removed, eternally!

Does he have a point or is he full of excrement?

No he's full of shit. Some people.likento optomize, i dont, but there are games for them and games for me (both in terms of games meaning systems or games meaning individual tables.)

Quote from: HappyDaze on December 30, 2020, 11:59:43 PM
I only watched about 5 minutes of the video. I don't give a shit how other people play their games, so talking about optimizers as some kind of movement (and doing the same to oppose them) means jack shit to me. At my table, optimizers are welcome--until they start telling others that they are doing things wrong. They then move to the "shut up" and, if not followed, to the "get out" phase. If someone else asks for their guidance on a build, more power to them (literally), but it has to be sough out advice or it's unwelcome.

Exactly.  Why piss on their parade?  That style of play is fun to some people.  I can't stand these quasi-celebrity GMs telling people there is a "right" way to play RPGs

Eh. On the one hand, I really hate 'builds' and 'optimizing' in computer RPGS. If it's a game I like, I find a guide online and copy it so I don't have to fiddle with the boring min/maxing.

At the table top? Optimize all you want, but keep it to yourself. That shit puts me to sleep.

Quote from: Snowman0147 on December 31, 2020, 12:05:50 AM
He is shit.  Who wants to be a sub optimal character that constantly fails all the time?  No one wants to suck the dick of failure.

Greetings!

Hey Snowman! *Laughing* Sucking the dick of failure! Who wants to run a suboptimal character?

You know, I have often read of some people extolling the joys of playing characters with 8-12's across the deck. And I get the enjoyment that can come from having such a character struggle to survive, and gradually climb to being successful.

However--it's nice to do that, say once in awhile. Doing it all the time though, with every character like that? I have had some suboptimal characters before, of course--and it has a limited window as I mentioned of being fun and challenging. Damn, though, even with one such character, it doesn't take long at all when making skill rolls, attempting to fight, and attempting to actually accomplish something--and you come face to face with the reality with nearly every dice roll that you just plain suck. *laughing* I think that can get old, really fast.

Not saying I expect players or my own NPC's or my own player characters to have all uber stats across the board--but I am reminded that while we have in America a cherished cow of celebrating the "Common Man"--and rightfully so--the fact is, through history, great heroes, soldiers, warriors--they may have had common origins--but they rapidly transformed and demonstrated that they were anything but ordinary. Bumbling, clumsy farmers and shopkeepers die quickly, and in droves, unless they shape up real quick. They simply must discover within themselves competency, skill, and greatness, and bring it to the forefront very quickly, or they won't survive a season.

With adventurers, likened to rugged frontiersmen, soldiers, hardened mercenaries, epic heroes from myths, I always kind of assumed that most of the "suboptimal" people stay home on the farm, or stay at their shop or business in the city--and not forming ranks with teams of crazy, ruthless adventurers wandring out in the wilderness defending the kingdom from hordes of monsters and fighting dragons.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Theory of Games on December 30, 2020, 11:53:32 PM
TLDR: Scott Garibay, some Christian-SJW insider, says optimizing builds is "immature" and harmful to the RPG hobby. To the extent that optimizers should be removed, eternally!

Does he have a point or is he full of excrement?

Greetings!

Well, I watched the entire video. HEH. He is I'd say, 25% right, and 75% full of shit. Yes, "optimizers" are not holding the position of authority to tell anyone else at the game table how they *must* build their character. He's right in that sense--there are different goals, different preferences and play styles for everyone. It is not necessary for every character at the table to be absolutely optimized. There is room for lots of other different characters, built with different priorities. He's wrong though that this is somehow some kind of "movement" or ideology within the hobby that must be worked against, tolerated, pitied, or otherwise opposed. That is a tempest in a teacup! *Laughing* Back in the day, we used to call these kinds of people with these kinds of priorities "Min-Maxers" or "Hack and Slashers". That style of play, and approach to character building has always been in the hobby, from the earliest days--and likewise, there have also been players with many different priorities and play styles, which is fine and good. Let people be different, and enjoy the effing game.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Yes, yes, Herr Doktor... the "dick of failure" quip is now my signature... and it's funny because it's true.

Quote from: Snowman0147 on December 31, 2020, 12:05:50 AM
He is shit.  Who wants to be a sub optimal character that constantly fails all the time?  No one wants to suck the dick of failure.

Sub optimal characters are fine, you don't have to squeeze every last +1 out of a character you build and its also perfectly fine to have the "Ordinary man doing extraordinary things" situation. Building stats and skills based on the character background is good as well.

As long as a character is basically competent at their job then I don't have a problem with them in a game.

The problem comes when someone makes an incompetent or useless character that gets my character killed because the game was balanced for competent characters and someone isn't pulling their weight.

A Half-Orc Mage is fine, Half-Orc mage with int 8 is an amusing liability and the joke falls flat after the first time.

Not gonna lie - didn't watch the video.  Y'all said it was a waste of time and I believe you.

IMNSHO optimizing, unless you enjoy it as a mini-game, is a waste of time.  I write my adventures to make them challenging but winnable through good tactics.  If you've spent hours optimizing your PC, you can expect an interesting, challenging, and winnable game.  Same if you made your chars in 5 minutes.  Optimizing will not improve your chance of succeeding in the adventure because I design the encounters with the known power of the party in mind.  The only time it becomes a problem is when you have optimizing and non-optimizing players together, because the optimizers will outshine the others.  The best solution then is to get all the players to take the same approach.

He does have a point, Combat is only a third of the 3 pillars of the game.

As with a lot of things, some minimal optimization is playing the game.  It's people that can't see the forest for the trees that are the problem.  That includes the game designers with that issue.

QuoteIs RPG Optimization Psychosis?

No, but people who complain about optimization or "powergamers" are low intelligence lunatics who like to blame their personal failings on other people, and their words can be safely ignored without anything of value being lost.