Quote from: Novastar;567056(I could have sworn Ladybird was a woman, Ben...)

I thought Ladybird was actually a guy, despite the handle. Ladybird? Guy or girl, please?

Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;566957Am I crazy, or is it an absolute necessity to spell out what a role-playing game is (even to the uninitiated)? Is it useless page filler?

I think that:

(1) The roleplaying hobby and industry would be healthier if more RPGs were written to be accessible to new players. This would mean including a section on "What is an RPG?", but it also means including a detailed description of the game structures necessary for actual play.

(2) Since the vast majority of RPGs do not include a description of the actual game structures necessary for play, the little "What is an RPG?" blurbs they do include are completely pointless wastes of space.

If the rest of your game requires that the reader has already mastered the techniques of running and playing an RPG, then the audience for your book does not require a definition of the medium.

Quote from: Benoist;567089I thought Ladybird was actually a guy, despite the handle. Ladybird? Guy or girl, please?

Definitely a guy!

Thanks for the feedback, all. I was curious if it was a shared sentiment, or simply just me being a bit grumbly. Here's my first draft in the ZWEIHÄNDER book about what I feel is a role-playing game. Obviously, I am a bit biased but I would appreciate any constructive criticism. If I've missed the mark, please tell me.

I'd like to believe I am a pretty good writer...but before you begin tearing it apart, please realize that this is a rough draft and hasn't even made it into the hands of my editor:

-------------------------------

Most readers will already be familiar with tabletop role-playing games and how they work. For the uninitiated, a role-playing game is very similar to improvisation. It is not so different than a game of pretend - an interactive story where you drive the action, drama and suspense by taking on the role of someone else. A group of people create alternate personalities called characters, developed using a script of rules similar to the book you’re holding in your hands right now. Players are actors within a story, portraying an alternative personality using first and third person perspectives. They speak with one another as these personas and rely on a Gamemaster (sometimes referred to as a GM) to presents the world their characters live in. The Gamemaster produces the exposition as a storyteller, playing the part as author of the world the characters inhabit and the non-player characters they interact with. The GM also referees the decisions players make within the game as their characters, acting impartially and fairly, advocating no one position. The Gamemaster must be imaginative, because they’ll often be called upon to make up details and information about the world and other people within it on the fly. Players can change the outcome of the story by making decisions “in-character”; meaning, using the persona they’ve created for themselves. These decisions drive the challenges within the story, resolved with most tabletop role-playing games by using dice. The GM will adjudicate the results of these dice rolls and produce a narrative that encapsulates what players’ characters are experiencing. Experienced Gamemasters will develop an ongoing story arc, persistent in that the game world is impacted by the choices players make in-character, whether they be small or large. Oftentimes, they will create their own gaming world (called a campaign world), encapsulating themes they feel best represent the fantasy world players interacting within. Some Gamemasters may adopt elements from popular television shows, author an alternate history derived from our own world, borrow stories from popular fantasy novels to produce their own version or use published campaign worlds from other role-playing publishing studios.

Most people have no idea what an RPG is.
On the occasions I discuss this hobby, occasionally people have heard of DnD (and think it's some sort of boardgame or something), but mostly people have no idea what RPGs ARE or how they work.

It's not like it's going to kill you to have to skim past a few pages explaining what an RPG is and TBH they usually write what an RPG is from THEIR game's POV anyway. TRy reading the blurb from say DnD compared to white Wolf's Vampire. Quite different.

If you want to be able to bring more people into RPGs (other than via introduction from friends or Gamer parents showing their kids) then they need to be accommodating to newbies.

tldr;
RPGs are still an unknown, they needs an intro.

Quote from: danskmacabre;567151Most people have no idea what an RPG is.

Yet despite this most people have played an RPG at some point in their lives.

The thing that throws new players off is not the subject, but the details surrounding RPG gaming. Even simply the different kinds of dice used are a bigger barrier than not understanding what roleplaying is.

And no other form of game has a section which tells you what it is beyond maybe a blurb on the back of the package. Why should RPGs be any different?

Quote from: chaosvoyager;567160Yet despite this most people have played an RPG at some point in their lives.

I donot agree with this statement. Based on my experience, most people have NOT played an RPG ever in their lives (well tabletop RPGs anyway).
and it's probably increasingly less so with PCs, consoles, facebook etc etc..
Occasionally I meet someone (usually a 30+ person) who said they had a go in college or knew of people who played that sort of thing.

QuoteThe thing that throws new players off is not the subject, but the details surrounding RPG gaming. Even simply the different kinds of dice used are a bigger barrier than not understanding what roleplaying is.

Hmmm certainly when I have introduced RPGs to newbies, I have to start from scratch what an RPG is.  They almost always assume it's just basically a boardgame like monopoly, but with a fantasy flavor or something.
Actually I guess the initial perception is it's something like the "Talisman" boardgame.

QuoteAnd no other form of game has a section which tells you what it is beyond maybe a blurb on the back of the package. Why should RPGs be any different?

Because RPGs are really unlike other types of games (board games, cards games) they need to be explained from the ground up.

No. Let's be honest: Your customer base, will hate it, unless its somehow a miraculous version no one has ever managed to write that will draw players like flies.

Quote from: Silverlion;567182No. Let's be honest: Your customer base, will hate it, unless its somehow a miraculous version no one has ever managed to write that will draw players like flies.

Will hate an intro to RPGs blurb, like over a few pages?
Heh I hadn't even thought about it until this thread came up.
Why is is such a Drama?  can't people just turn the pages and carry on as normal?
Saying "No, the customer base will hate it" is a pretty all encompassing and general statement IMO.
RPGs are a niche hobby to the extreme and publishers should make the core rules of a product as noob friendly as possible, well unless they're making a product specifically targeted to a core experienced RPG customer base, in which case sure exclude an intro if you like and whatever other noob friendly material as well, but then you will probably have a small customer base.

Quote from: Silverlion;567182No. Let's be honest: Your customer base, will hate it, unless its somehow a miraculous version no one has ever managed to write that will draw players like flies.

What customer base? Silly people that post on forums?

Quote from: Sacrosanct;566972I agree 100%.  I've never understood why it's such a turnoff for so many experienced gamers.  I mean, some people get downright offended by it.  No, I'm not trying to belittle you.  This is for the new people.  Just skip the page if you want.

I agree - but I think deep down many experienced players get offended because these explanations are just different enough from their own perspectives that they believe its misleading newbies.

I usually read these. Sometimes they reveal something about the new game that should have been included in other parts of the game.

Quote from: Ladybird;567125Definitely a guy!

O thank god...

(farts)

Quote from: danskmacabre;567186Will hate an intro to RPGs blurb, like over a few pages?
Heh I hadn't even thought about it until this thread came up.
Why is is such a Drama?  can't people just turn the pages and carry on as normal?

You'd think so, but yeah. I've seen it. People are tired of being told what it is--after the fifth or sixth book its just noise to most people, but a few people react to noise differently, and sometimes quite negatively.Partly since they've read someone's version of this all before--just as good or bad, as the one in any new game book that is being planned.


Let us not even talk of game-fiction

QuoteRPGs are a niche hobby to the extreme and publishers should make the core rules of a product as noob friendly as possible, well unless they're making a product specifically targeted to a core experienced RPG customer base, in which case sure exclude an intro if you like and whatever other noob friendly material as well, but then you will probably have a small customer base.

How many new players does the game alone bring in? How many have you seen brought in? Most of those I've seen brought in were either surges in the 80's and 90's (White Wolf), and many of them were brought in by others, not the the writing in the games themselves. It masses into a lot of dead trees in the long wrong, or wasted bits in the e-forms. Its a waste of space for most people, which could be better used by play aids.

Quote from: Silverlion;567410You'd think so, but yeah. I've seen it. People are tired of being told what it is--after the fifth or sixth book its just noise to most people, but a few people react to noise differently, and sometimes quite negatively.Partly since they've read someone's version of this all before--just as good or bad, as the one in any new game book that is being planned.

I try to avoid basing my decisions on the complaints of annoying whiners.

Quote from: chaosvoyager;567160Yet despite this most people have played an RPG at some point in their lives.

The thing that throws new players off is not the subject, but the details surrounding RPG gaming. Even simply the different kinds of dice used are a bigger barrier than not understanding what roleplaying is.

And no other form of game has a section which tells you what it is beyond maybe a blurb on the back of the package. Why should RPGs be any different?

If by RPG you mean "create a character and go kill ten rats", then there have been quite a few people who have played an RPG.

However, a bit of perspective:  

• There are about 300 milllion people in the U.S.
• If every WoW sub was from the U.S., that's still a touch over 3% of the population.  
• Since WoW is a global phenomenon, and Blizz never releases where their subs come from, it's pretty reasonable to assume that maybe 5 million subs are from the U.S. which means less than 2% of the population plays an MMORPG like WoW.
  
• Even factoring in games like Skyrim, I think it's safe to say that the population of the U.S. that has played a video game version of an RPG is around 5%.

So no, most people haven't played RPGs.  Considering that I know quite a few people who still think D&D is "that nerd game" or "that Satanic game", I'd say that a "What is an RPG?" is very much warranted.