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I've never been.

Seems like a shopping expedition. I've seen the vids of people washing through the facility.

Never seen a great game run there, which would be a draw for me.

GenCon should be this epic yearly event, teasing adventures and great GMs that would make me travel across country.

I don't see the draw. At all.

Thoughts?

I've never been - but Origins is a lot of fun. But - it's local for me, so it doesn't require a ton of effort on my part.

I have heart from people who have been to both - Origins for the gaming, and GenCon for the event. GenCon just looks too crowded to be a lot of fun.

Quote from: Theory of Games;1098258I've never been.

Seems like a shopping expedition. I've seen the vids of people washing through the facility.

Never seen a great game run there, which would be a draw for me.

GenCon should be this epic yearly event, teasing adventures and great GMs that would make me travel across country.

I don't see the draw. At all.

Thoughts?

As of 2001 which was the last GenCon I could attend ohhhh yes gaming was quite prominent and unless they have lost their minds, it still is prominient. They just also devote a huuuuuuge area to vendors as well and part of that area is also various publisher stalls. The vendor area gets alot of vids because it is about the most fantastical part of the con. The rest is fairly mundane gaming youd see at about any convention with gaming. Toss in lots of board games and a few palour games or LARPs and theres even more. And then theres movies nearly 24/7 (unless they got rid of that) and gaming about 24/7 too.

Gencon is epic just due to scale.  Vendors demoing games was a big thing that I really enjoyed.  Large numbers of obscure vendors was also something I liked.  What I didn't like was how challenging it was to find pick up games if you're not a social butterfly.  In that area scale may work against it a bit.  There was likely a whole area that specialized in pickup games that I just never found.  
I liked it best as a group activity where three to five friends go.

I forget the exact year, but I went in 200X and it was fine. The vendor's hall / art gallery was absolutely massive, and I had to walk across it way too many times. But overall the conventions space, including the adjoining mall and hotels, was at least easy to navigate and I never felt too crowded. And I did sign up for some games. I had a couple complaints, though.

1) My focus is tabletop RPGs. I figure that the same kind of gaming should be kept physically located together as much as possible. But no. I signed up for a couple one-shots one day, and didn't know that they were in entirely different hotels. I had 10 minutes after the first game finished to take 3 skyways(hotel > convention center > mall > another hotel) to my next game. I made good time(again, not too crowded), and I walked a lot faster back then than I can now, but even then I definitely wasn't quite on time. I apologized, gave a quick explanation, and the GM was nice about it. But man, that was frustrating. I didn't know until I got my tickets and saw the printed locations that this was the case.

2) The official tabletop gaming schedule ended at either 5 or 6pm. I know they have gaming of some sort at all hours, but for any type of gaming to end so early in the day at a dedicated gaming convention seems incredibly messed up to me. When we found out there was nothing left to sign up for that day, my friend and I tried heading over to Games on Demand. It sounded like the kind of thing that'd be ongoing, but even they closed at that time. One GM there was nice enough to run a short(<30 minute) session of a sort-of board game based on the Dread(the one with Jenga) horror RPG, so the long walk there wasn't a total waste. The scenario was even based on a Dread scenario I'd been a part of at Dragon Con the previous year, so that was kind of surreal.

I'm used to Dragon Con's schedule. For the stuff I'm into - at DC they call it "Non-Campaign RPGs," which I think means RPG sessions that aren't part of something with Living or Society in its name - they have four 4-hour blocks every day from 9am to 2am, with a 1-hour break from 5 to 6. At Gen Con, this kind of gaming was over for the day when at Dragon Con they were just taking a short break. Finding this out when I went to buy tickets for more games really took the wind out of my sails.

I'm a proactive con-goer, so I'd put out feelers on various RPG communities beforehand and organized some unsanctioned game sessions and other meet-ups, but if I hadn't, I dunno . . . but yeah, if you care about new releases, announcements, and seeing a ton of your favorite game designers, it definitely beat any other convention I've been to in that department. By quite a lot, even.

I haven't been to GenCon or GaryCon; but I have attended dozens of large conventions since 1998.

No thanks.

The airport experience just plain sucks.  The airline and airplane experience sucks too.  Dealing with rental cars or cabs is a little bit of a headache, as well.

The hotels either hosting, or located close to a popular event jack their prices up; and sometimes have no availability, weeks in advance.

My tired old knees aren't capable of walking on hard floors all day, for 2 or 3 days straight.  I'm past being able to do that anymore.  Thank God for YouTube, and Amazon; in addition to my local gaming stores.

If I had a bunch of RL friends who were into it and roaring to go... well, most anything would be fun with that qualification.
But I don't... so GenCon would me, Billy NoMates, wandering the aisles, wanting to buy more than I can afford (or need).
At best I could go by the LotFP booth and scream adoringly at Raggi... and be a fanboy dork in the DCC tent.

Otherwise, nope... no relevance for me at all, and that's the only 'relevance' I really care about.
Some little local con, that wasn't run by cretins (local history), would be much more my speed.

Went in 2016.  I thought it was pretty awesome.  I may take the kids next year, but I think as much for the spectacle and event as for any gaming or the like.  I went in sort of blind, knowing nothing of reserving games, buying tickets, etc.  It was a bit overwhelming, but I liked it.  I would like to go again, but it seems like a 3-5 year thing rather than every year,  want to try a smaller con next.

Quote from: Simlasa;1098293At best I could go by the LotFP booth and scream adoringly at Raggi... and be a fanboy dork in the DCC tent.

That's like the entire point. That and buying more than you can afford/use. The DCC booth was cool.

Is it relevant? Well WotC doesn't seem to think so. You could get 5e books all over the place, but WotC was strangely absent.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1098326That's like the entire point. That and buying more than you can afford/use. The DCC booth was cool.

Is it relevant? Well WotC doesn't seem to think so. You could get 5e books all over the place, but WotC was strangely absent.

Any ideas why that is?  They were not there when I went, and pathfinder has a HUGE presence

Quote from: oggsmash;1098331Any ideas why that is?  They were not there when I went, and pathfinder has a HUGE presence

  WotC has been absent from GenCon for the past several years; their stated reason is that they figure the fans are more interested in gaming than in having them do presentations or show off new product.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1098335WotC has been absent from GenCon for the past several years; their stated reason is that they figure the fans are more interested in gaming than in having them do presentations or show off new product.

  Seems they would set up games and run them the way the pathfinder ballroom(s?) do then?

Quote from: oggsmash;1098331Any ideas why that is?  They were not there when I went, and pathfinder has a HUGE presence

Paizo is a major sponsor of Gencon while WotC is not.

I suspect that WotC would rather Gencon fail and then make their own dedicated D&D/MtG con. Or WotC plans to step up after Paizo falls.

WotC may still be burned that Gencon didn't need them during the 4e era.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1098326That's like the entire point. That and buying more than you can afford/use. The DCC booth was cool.

But is it worth the $$$ I'd spend doing it, when I can pretty much do all those things online throughout the year?
It seems to me that many of the benefits of a con have been met by social media and online gaming.

I still take gaming friends to GenCon every year, but haven't attended since 2011. It is too big, expensive, and messy for me, even though I'm close enough to drive home every day. For gaming it is very relevant and attendance is running well over 70,000 unique visitors a year now. I just happen to prefer running Old School tabletop games in a smaller venue, more friendly and much less hectic. I hate searching for parking, driving in congested traffic, and detest being financially gouged by other businesses just  to enjoy my game design services and recreational hobbies. Just to attend a Convention I drop $500 for three days on hotel rooms and food, and this doesn't count transportation costs. For the same price for attending one convention, I can run games in my home games room for an entire year. I liked Origins, but found the woke crowd dissing on too many of my favorite former Origins staff members, so declined to attend this year on that count.

Quote from: Simlasa;1098395But is it worth the $$$ I'd spend doing it, when I can pretty much do all those things online throughout the year?
It seems to me that many of the benefits of a con have been met by social media and online gaming.

The benefit of the con is Discovery. People you would have never looked at have booths that you can walk past.

The spectacle is also fun and meeting RPG designers in the flesh.

Oh and some people like demoing board games, some of which haven't been released yet.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1098456The benefit of the con is Discovery. People you would have never looked at have booths that you can walk past.

Meh... I get that by trawling through the gaming blogs and the pages of DTRPG.

QuoteThe spectacle is also fun and meeting RPG designers in the flesh.

Meh again... except for Raggi and the DCC crowd I'm not enough of a fanboy to care about meeting RPG designers.

QuoteOh and some people like demoing board games, some of which haven't been released yet.

THAT does sound like fun... maybe I should go to a board game convention?

Quote from: Simlasa;1098461THAT does sound like fun... maybe I should go to a board game convention?

If we're being honest with ourselves, Gencon is predominantly a boardgame/wargame convention that also has RPGs. The former two actually make money.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1098464If we're being honest with ourselves, Gencon is predominantly a boardgame/wargame convention that also has RPGs. The former two actually make money.

Really, the main reasons for my lack of interest is that it just sounds like a HUGE hassle for what I'd get out of it. Something smaller, and closer to home... possibly better focused on things I'm specifically interested in, would be a better use of time/financial resources.

I have no interest in attending Gencon. The RPG market segment that Gencon serves isn't part of the market I'm interested in, and Gencon is too big, too much hassle, and too broad in focus. If I'm going to attend a convention, it will be a much smaller convention that has a focus on the games I'm interested in.

GenCon is a Woodstock type event for nerd hobbies; as is ComicCon as well.

Go just so you can say you've been; and also to prove to your family that this really is a hugely popular hobby.  It can't give enough gaming return for the financial investment required to make the trip from far away, in my opinion.

I've been to a couple of GenCons in Lake Geneva, a couple in Milwaukee, several in Indy. I go mostly for the shopping and for the chance to talk to some folks I know in the industry.

What I don't get is this: GenCon keeps outgrowing its venue (which is why it kept moving) yet is continually adding in non-RPG content. Why is that?

I mean, if I was outgrowing my space I don't think I would have so much anime or comic book or other stuff at the convention. It's supposed to be a GAMING convention. If you look at the booths you will see some that sell sci fi movie products, or Ren Faire garb, or even board games. Then the convention is so big that you have to go through a lottery system in order to maybe win the chance to buy hotel space. That's just crazy.

GaryCon is better. Heck, we have several tiny conventions near Chicago (COD Con, Opportunity Attacks) or Madison (GameHole Con) that have more of an RPG focus. I just don't get why GenCon has to fill up with non-RPG content.

Ima gonna hijack ...

The start of a series of posts about GenCon.

Back in my day milk cost $.25!

I'm local to Indy and work/park nearby, so travel costs are essentially $0 for me. For my family of four the costs were: $484 - 4 x 4-day badges, $180 - Event Tickets

That's $664 to play in seven games, or about $23 per game per person ... plus, of course, I've purchased the right to enter the dealer hall and buy more from the vendors.

Most events are charged at $1 an hour, in 2-hour increments, so a 5-hour game is $6. That's the GenCon fee. On top of that, a DM can up charge for the ticket. So a 2-hour game that normally costs $2 (the GenCon cost) could have an additional $2 (or whatever) charged by the DM and they get to keep the money. Once example is TrueDungeon, charging $80 for a 2-hour ticket. Baldman Games, running 5e for WTC, charges $3 an hour, so a typical 4-hour experience (the usual for a con RPG game) runs you $12 a person.

My Schedule had two up charges:  Call of Cthulhu Game charging $2/hour/a person and an AD&D Game charging the same. Both were among the worst game experiences I had at GenCon. Comically bad.

I can afford this. It also sticks in my craw for some reason. I would not be surprised if it has something to do with expectations, since that seems to be a theme with me. But it also feels like I'm being ripped off.

The Cthulhu games was comically bad (next post) and only lasted two hours, meaning I paid $4/hour instead of $2. For one of the worst RPG experiences I've ever had.

I don't have a point. I think I'm talking about my feelings. Bu something feels wrong. Maybe I think GenCon is high cost and low value. Maybe the con is no longer GenCon but more of a DragonCon/ComicCon sort of con and I've not adapted.




Game 1 - AD&D, $8 ($32 total) 4h

This was a classic module. I suspected problems right away when I saw the milk crates full of books and the large player count. I was further altered by what I might call loudmouth or braggart DM conduct. I'm sure we've all encountered the type. They talk about TPK's and glories from days past. And they do it over an over again. A lot. This had me apprehensive before the game. What we got was a VERY slow game. We made it through two encounters in four hours. There were secret notes galore from the DM. Each one seemed to take an eternity, at least five minutes each, if not more. There were LONG DM pauses while they looked things up in books and so on. At one point random treasure, a LOT of random treasure, was rolled up. Like "You find a body, it's a 21st level archmage. An human, about 35 you think, with grey eyes and blond hair dressed in a green robe with a purple cloak." And then a LONG list of equipment ... which then became just magical equipment, thank god. A lot of dead high-level bodies with mega magic items. We then needed to level our characters to continue, about 90 minutes before the game was over. Before this game, if I were to describe a stereotypical bad AD&D game, this would be it. Some of this would be appropriate for a home game but not a con game. But, the vast majority was just a bad DM who thought they were a great DM. Again, classic AD&D adventure, 2 encounters. It was obvious that at least half the table was miserable. Five players made excuses and left before the end of the game. This was put on by a third party DM group and the DM was older.

Game 2 - B/X - Stonehell - No upcharge 4h

Another game with a large player count, but in contrast to the first game the DM was very good. Able to conduct the game in a fast-paced manner, control the table, allow everyone to get a turn and so on. We explored a decent amount of the dungeon. The DM knew the dungeon having run it quite a bit, and didn't get bogged down looking things up or in table issues. This was a good old school game with a decent mix of player types. I feel like everyone had engaged and had a good time with a lot of old school play style going on. This was an independent DM, and younger.

Game 3 - Wild West - No upcharge 4h

Some guys homebrew system which initially had me agape at the complexity of the character sheet. It ended up being a lot like BRP/CoC though, with it's long list of skills, etc with Hard and Extreme checks. We were to rob a stagecoach. It was VERY open ended, with what seemed like a just a goal and little to be railroaded by. There were not many players, just one more besides us, who we elected leader of our gang. He was a good player. I think we all enjoyed ourselves, including the DM, who did a good job responding to our (and our leaders) old school antics. "First, we derail a traincar full of widows and orphans as a distraction, ot, barring that, burn down the schoolhouse after locking the doors."

Game 4 - Wild Skies - No upcharge 2h

An indie game where, it turns out, we're all anthropomorphic animals in a Utopian version of the US during the 30's. (And we stayed out of WW1? What's up with that?) If I'd known the animal thing beforehand I wouldn't not have bought tickets, memories of Ironclaw/jadeclaw games dancing in my head ... but, we were the only players and the DM was not creepy and did not present the setting as a creepy one. The game was VERY fast and loose, my daughter commented later that there were no failure consequences, which made it hard to enjoy. "You just keep rolling till yo succeed, whats the point?" Indeed Little Girl, (who I need to find a new nickname for since you're 20 now), Fiasco might be a fun activity but it doesn't fit my definition of a game. Anyway very face-paced DM, almost abstracted, I think because of our no-nonsense almost meta play style during the game. DM did a good job.

Game 5 - DCC - No upcharge 4h

It's DCC. I've yet to have a bad DCC DM and DCC is perfect for one-shots and con games. The DM was decent, keeping things moving and fun. The other players were decent also. I played a thief. Never play the thief in DCC; it must be the most boring class. My wife was dressed like a cleric that day so she played the cleric. It was a good game.

Game 6 - Call of Cthulhu - $8 ($32 total) 4h

This game lasted 2 hours, and was presented by a premier group. It was COMICALLY bad. Another loudmouth/braggart DM. Then the game started and he kept falling asleep during almost any pause. He could have been drunk, with some slurring, in the early afternoon. He spent long amounts of time looking mundane things up, like the stats for a specific pistol a player had. He literally read one entry after another in the adventure. As in we were in the entryway of the house, players announced which rooms they were going to, and he then ready the Dining Room entry, obviously the next entry in the text of the adventure. He would read the DM text like "When the players search they will find ..."  He literally said that, multiple times. Then he left and came back energized. Too much so. He had a member of the group go crazy and attack people, starting with me. The guy did 7 of 9 HP, then the DM said I went in to shock and took four more and died. Then he attacked other players, killing more. Then he announced tentacles coming out of places, grabbing people, which resulted in more deaths. Then the two last people shot someone who suddenly appeared on a tower and the DM said " You won." Not really any investigation at all. Over in two hours. I've played in some REALLY bad con game but this may have been the worst. The DM was older. It's a shame, CoC usually makes for a good con game.

Game 7 - AD&D- No upcharge 5h

A classic 3rd party adventure from the early days. Using AD&D, complete with weapon length, speed, and armor class weapon mods, printed on the sheet. This had me freaked out. Using that shit in a con game is essentially performance art. Fortunately, it didn't happen. The DM, a younger guy, ran the game well. Fast, fun, old school playstyle. There were 5 players who were just over 21 or so. They were among the best old school players I've ever played with. Creative, inventive, non bogged down in stuff, able to have a good time. They said they'd been playing first edition all week. There was another player, a loudmouth braggart. Cleric charges for healing. Self-aggrandizing statements, etc. It was bad enough we almost left just a few minutes in to the game. I'm glad we didn't though, the other group was very good and fun.

I clearly have a problem with the loudmouth/braggart type. Or,maybe, I've learned to be cautious around them, as a warning sign of experiences to come. My two bad games, which were both REALLY bad, came from established DM organizations and all had ticket upcharges. I don't want to emphasize the older DM thing too much, but it's just another data point on the "ought oh" scale. A DM who is too focused on themselves and/or the rules instead of the flow of the table, especially at a con game, is what the real issue is. I'm sure there are older DM's who have never left the AD&D system who are good.

All of this over analysis is directed at reg next year. The most terrifying microsecond in existence as you push the submit button exactly at noon, hoping that you get some decent game. But it starts weeks before, as you build your wish list of events ,trying to push the percentages of good games to add. Reg during GenCon is close to impossible, with long lines and it very likely that you'll find four seats open for a six seat RPG. "Learn to play" RPG games tend to be the starter adventure from the core book, run by a volunteer.

Quote from: bryce0lynch;1098498Ima gonna hijack ...

The start of a series of posts about GenCon.

Back in my day milk cost $.25!

Your experience makes me glad that my city's con is much, much smaller.

I just got back yesterday from my second gen con and it was a blast.  Played a couple of rpg games with fantastics storytellers and the vendors hall is a wonder in itself.  Worth every dime.

GenCon looks to be turning into yet another pop culture convention, they're just doing a shitty job of it.

Quote from: Theory of Games;1098258I've never been.

Seems like a shopping expedition. I've seen the vids of people washing through the facility.

Never seen a great game run there, which would be a draw for me.

GenCon should be this epic yearly event, teasing adventures and great GMs that would make me travel across country.

I don't see the draw. At all.

Thoughts?

When I went, every single game I played was incredible. Best GMing I've had in my life. And...not a single game was even at the convention center. All were people I knew from online, running a game in the lobby of a hotel nearby. Not that I felt my ticket was worthless as I enjoyed the convention floor, but technically none of my games were at a location where I actually needed a badge to play.

I'd never go to GenCon without some friends that wanted to go too. I went to a couple in the Milwaukee days, and a decent number of them in Indianapolis. I'd have to say it took me a couple/few times to work out how to best experience it.

1.) The Dealer's Hall is a thing at all of these game & comic book conventions. It can be fun to either pick up the new hotness or dig for something in the hall, but it can also be a slog and the worst thing, as this is where the crowds are worst. I will swing through once, then consider it something to re-visit as a filler if I can't come up with anything better to check out. The internet means you're less likely to find cool old stuff for a decent price here than in the old days, but if you swing through the auction/consignment room you might get lucky.
2.) I've given up buying event tickets, I just grab some generic tickets, browse the catalog and jot down options I might consider trying. Finding scheduled games (of unknown quality) is just a huge pain and something they could improve.
3.) "Games on Demand" has been a pretty reliable way for me to walk up and try some games. They kick off a set of games every 2 hours (for 2 to 4 hour blocks), but the games do lean very indie and story-gamey. I like trying out these games, as I never get to play them anywhere else, but you have to be flexible and willing to give something a shot, or your preferred game may fill up and you'll have wasted your time seeing if you get in on a game.
4.) An open BattleTech game or some board games are also a decent option. Bad rando-RPers are less likely to ruin games of this sort.
5.) You can also find some nice seminars, authors talking about things, game companies talking about upcoming products, etc. These are nice and laid back.
6.) From the Dealer's Hall, Games on Demand, or just random wandering around and socializing, you can sometimes get yourself into some after-hours/off-the-books style games. Like, a lot of companies, at their booths, if you dig their game you can sometimes find out they have someone or are aware of someone running games of their stuff you can get in on.

So, for me, a typical day has something like: I immediately abandon my friends and go solo. Maybe 1 seminar? 2 to 3 RPG sessions (one of which will be in a hotel at night, if not with others, with the friends I came with). A bit of Dealer's Hall wandering. Eating out with friends I came with (usually just dinner, sometimes lunch too). Assorted things like stopping by the Circle Mall for something, or playing some arcade games in a room might happen.

Like, it won't change your life, but if you can get out somewhere with your friends for a long weekend, play a couple/few games a day, and don't get bogged down too heavily with the crowds, and have a room close enough to walk from, it can be a fun way to blow a weekend. I live about 4.5 hours away, so that's do-able. I wouldn't fly for it. I think you'd have just as much fun at large RPG Cons that aren't GenCon, with the added benefit of easier lodging logistics and less crowd issues.

Anyways, that's my personal experience.

GenCon stopped being relevant when they started getting political and eschewed gaming.

How is gencon political? It came off pretty neutral when attending

Quote from: Radiofreedeath;1098531How is gencon political? It came off pretty neutral when attending

Yeah, I agree. Some folks are grouchy "culture warrior" types that gotta make everything about that, like the Christian that makes sure you know they don't celebrate Halloween (because Satan or whatever). I mean, there are literally thousands of gaming events and tons of gaming companies there. To say GenCon "eschewed gaming" is just weird nonsense.

I have always wanted to go to Gen Con but it seems like now Paizo Con would give a much better gaming experience.

Quote from: Radiofreedeath;1098531How is gencon political? It came off pretty neutral when attending

It's largely not, but there have been some events in recent years that aren't super great. To tar the entire event(at least at this point) is serious overkill. To say they've eschewed gaming, however, is to lose touch with reality altogether.

Quote from: Radiofreedeath;1098531How is gencon political? It came off pretty neutral when attending

Its increasintly bleeding into the edges. Last year had all sorts of problems that individually were small or just annoying. But together paint a picture of a larger problem brewing. Which is becoming more apparent outside the con this year. WOTC may not have a presence at GenCon or so they claim. But they sure throw their weight around there.

Quote from: GeekEclectic;1098548It's largely not, but there have been some events in recent years that aren't super great. To tar the entire event(at least at this point) is serious overkill. To say they've eschewed gaming, however, is to lose touch with reality altogether.

I am starting to wonder if the political stuff we are seeing at GenCon and other cons is not a symptom of the con itself. But symptoms of various "woke" publishers and agenda groups leveraging things.

Quote from: NeonAce;1098538To say GenCon "eschewed gaming" is just weird nonsense.

I know this is in a different context, but I want to talk about that, as well as the "Pop Culture Con" comment from earlier.

It FEELS like the con has changed and it's now not about gaming. It's about marketing, hype, industry connections, commerce and pop culture. It's is ABSOLUTLY the largest con with the strongest gaming culture but it doesn't feel like a "playing games" culture but rather a "games adjacent" culture. All of the major attendance cons seem to have morphed in to "I'm a big con with a strong focus on X", where X is gaming, video games, comics, etc. IE: pick the one your con has its roots in. But it's not longer about X, it's morphed in to some other slightly adjacent culture.

You can absolutly go to GenCon and play games and have fun, but it absolutly feels to me like the con has drifted as its gotten larger.

I believe the adjacent culture is 'convention culture'... Welcome to con con 2020!

Quote from: bryce0lynch;1098580I know this is in a different context, but I want to talk about that, as well as the "Pop Culture Con" comment from earlier.

It FEELS like the con has changed and it's now not about gaming. It's about marketing, hype, industry connections, commerce and pop culture. It's is ABSOLUTLY the largest con with the strongest gaming culture but it doesn't feel like a "playing games" culture but rather a "games adjacent" culture. All of the major attendance cons seem to have morphed in to "I'm a big con with a strong focus on X", where X is gaming, video games, comics, etc. IE: pick the one your con has its roots in. But it's not longer about X, it's morphed in to some other slightly adjacent culture.

You can absolutly go to GenCon and play games and have fun, but it absolutly feels to me like the con has drifted as its gotten larger.

Yeah, I don't feel like "It's not about gaming", but acknowledge the drift. I think it's just an inevitable byproduct of size & popularity. Like, you see a punk rock show in some odd-ball venue with maybe 40 people, and there is a local scene, and it has a certain feel. Then you go to the Van's Warped tour and your favorite punk band is playing on the sponsored "Sunny D Stage" and a hired sexy model in a Motorhead t-shirt is offering a rad Verizon wireless plan, and some people are into your thing, but other people are kind of tourists. Likewise with like a San Diego Comic Con, and now there's movie studios and non-comic interested people might come to catch a glimpse of a famous actor, and it's not about finding Steve Gerber at a small dingy table gushing about Howard the Duck or whatever. Basically, anything, once it reaches a certain level of popularity, attracts businesses & tourists that weren't originally a part of the thing, and it can shift or dilute the thing.

Also, Vincent's point is totally part of the deal. It seems like every "geek hobby" convention that has its roots in a thing eventually kinda becomes a little bit all of the things. Your Anime, RPGing, Comic Booking, & Star Trekking blurs across all of the conventions and CosPlayers aren't gonna miss a chance to get out.

This thread pretty much covers the start of where GenCon went all pear-shaped. (https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?31945-Gen-Con-to-Possibly-Leave-Indiana-politics)

GenCon is not relevant. It's a legacy experience now.  

The internet has made communication between publishers and gamers very easy. Nobody has to go to GenCon to learn what the "hot new game" might be. That was a thing 20+ years ago. Not anymore.

Nothing sold at GenCon is unique. You can buy everything from the same publishers and vendors online, often cheaper.

But GenCon is big, and people are drawn to big events. Size is the stamp of popularity.

As for quality of gaming, GenCon was shit both as a player and GM. But I checked it off the bucket list and got my "Been to Mecca" gamer cred, then did it again just in case I somehow missed the promised awesome. Nope. No awesome, just lines and crowds.  

As a GM, I've received so much better perks and treatment from small cons. I want to do DragonCon, but I'm hesitant to do another mega-con when the smaller cons have provided such better ROI for gaming fun.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1098712I want to do DragonCon, but I'm hesitant to do another mega-con when the smaller cons have provided such better ROI for gaming fun.

Dragon Con is fire, as the kids I work with say. If all you care about is the gaming, they've got scheduled stuff from 9am to 2am every day. And a pick-up game room that runs around the clock(getting to try out stuff w/ my friends at the Loony Labs table is still one of my fondest memories from years back). They shift stuff around every few years, though, so you'll need to look up where you need to go(or ask at one of the help desks), but it's not too bad. If you want to branch out, there's tons of other stuff to do, too, but you can absolutely go there and game through the whole weekend. I'm going just on Saturday. Gonna play a couple games, check out the swag in the dealer's hall, maybe check out the art exhibits, and then hit a party or concert(or both) before going to my friend's place to crash that night. Bam! And if we wake up early enough, my friends and I might go get dim sum on Sunday. That's not con related - just pointing out that there are at least a couple places in Atlanta that have dim sum, which is awesome!

Quote from: bryce0lynch;1098498SNIP

And all this time, I have been running con games for free like an absolute chump.

But then the only ones I still trust are small, focused affairs where the expectations are laid out openly and the event is focused on actual play. Those have worked pretty well for me.

I like football. A LOT. I run a football blog. Oh, look, the Superbowl is in town, maybe I should go? :) It's like that, at least for me, since it's literally two blocks from my office.

But ... there's also value in a diversity of game systems and DM's ... I just wish there was some floor on the DM quality and some ceiling on the costs. Plus, the dealer hall, at least in concept ...

ORIGINS is a better con for gaming, for when you FINALLY come visit us Melan ... although its probably easier to get someone at GENCON to pay your way.

Went once when it was in Milwaukee (2000 or 2001, can't remember). Really, really, liked Milwaukee and glad I went if for no other reason then that.

Not super into cons, but people were definitely gaming. Plenty of other stuff going on. Got lots of exercise roaming around everywhere.

Never been to GenCon. At a time I could have been very interested in visiting it. Today I don't bother any gaming conventions whatsoever. Having to deal with that many people? No thanks. I don't like "gamer culture" which seems to be the focus of this kind of conventions. I like gaming and ttrpg especially. And I came to the conclusion that the format of this hobby works pretty badly with gaming with random strangers for me. One bad apple in a group or as a gm and you are in for painfully long shitty experience. Especially since I am generally too polite to say screw this and walk away. And there's 9/10 there's always at least one bad apple in the barrel. That in combination with SJW infiltration of gaming conventions makes for what I would call an unpleasantly toxic environment.
.

Quote from: Teodrik;1098934Never been to GenCon. At a time I could have been very interested in visiting it. Today I don't bother any gaming conventions whatsoever. Having to deal with that many people? No thanks. I don't like "gamer culture" which seems to be the focus of this kind of conventions. I like gaming and ttrpg especially. And I came to the conclusion that the format of this hobby works pretty badly with gaming with random strangers for me. One bad apple in a group or as a gm and you are in for painfully long shitty experience. Especially since I am generally too polite to say screw this and walk away. And there's 9/10 there's always at least one bad apple in the barrel. That in combination with SJW infiltration of gaming conventions makes for what I would call an unpleasantly toxic environment.
.

This is largely how I feel about cons and public games as well. Not to mention, most of the big ones feel like I'm paying to stand in different lines the whole day. Physically pushing through crowds constantly isn't great either, usually I'm pissed off by hour two or three and have to escape for a smoke. This is all exacerbated by the fact that I don't often buy new things (because the stuff I use right now is what I like), especially not the types of products that get advertised and sold at cons, so there's really no general appeal in showing up at all.

Quote from: Teodrik;1098934Never been to GenCon. At a time I could have been very interested in visiting it. Today I don't bother any gaming conventions whatsoever. Having to deal with that many people? No thanks. I don't like "gamer culture" which seems to be the focus of this kind of conventions. I like gaming and ttrpg especially. And I came to the conclusion that the format of this hobby works pretty badly with gaming with random strangers for me. One bad apple in a group or as a gm and you are in for painfully long shitty experience. Especially since I am generally too polite to say screw this and walk away. And there's 9/10 there's always at least one bad apple in the barrel. That in combination with SJW infiltration of gaming conventions makes for what I would call an unpleasantly toxic environment.

I totally understand. However, the scene is quite different at small local or regional cons. Yes, you can still get suckass GMs and players, but I've been doing cons for 35+ years and my overall experience has been excellent (but my GenCons have been meh). My best experience with the highest ROI for fun have been the small cons and cons focused on specific games (like Palladium's Open House or 40k Game Days).

RPGs work really well for one shots with strangers IF everyone is there to game and not be an asshole...which fortunately is 80% of the time. And if you attend the same con a couple of times, the "strangers" become acquaintances and you get to know which tables to join and who to avoid. And often, those "acquaintances" become friends you game with between cons. Or marry in a few cases I've met.

And its true that SJW cultural poison has spread and depending on your locale, your local cons may already be lost causes. But maybe not.

Quote from: Shasarak;1098541I have always wanted to go to Gen Con but it seems like now Paizo Con would give a much better gaming experience.

If Paizo isn't paying you, they should. Shilling for them this hard has got to be worth something.

Quote from: Mistwell;1098985If Paizo isn't paying you, they should. Shilling for them this hard has got to be worth something.

What the hell man?  Did I sleep with your sister or are you just a natural asshole?

Quote from: Shasarak;1098986What the hell man?  Did I sleep with your sister or are you just a natural asshole?

Mistwell is a shill for WotC/DnD, so you are his favored enemy.

Quote from: Shasarak;1098541I have always wanted to go to Gen Con but it seems like now Paizo Con would give a much better gaming experience.

Maybe not - at Gen Con PAIZO and Pathfinder have taken over the Sagamore ballroom. That is where D&D 'ruled' from 2003 to about 2015.

Now it is all dozens of Pathfinder and Starfinder player groups having fun.

- Ed C.

Quote from: jeff37923;1098988Mistwell is a shill for WotC/DnD, so you are his favored enemy.

LOL right :) I am as much a shill for DnD as you are for Traveler I supposed.

I have no issues with Pathfinder. I'd play it, if my group wanted to. I just never see Shasarak ever, not even one time, say anything even vaguely questioning of anything Paizo does or anything vaguely less than overly enthusiastic about Pathfinder.

Quote from: jeff37923;1098988Mistwell is a shill for WotC/DnD, so you are his favored enemy.

Quote from: Mistwell;1098993LOL right :) I am as much a shill for DnD as you are for Traveler I supposed.

I have no issues with Pathfinder. I'd play it, if my group wanted to. I just never see Shasarak ever, not even one time, say anything even vaguely questioning of anything Paizo does or anything vaguely less than overly enthusiastic about Pathfinder.

Ah right, thanks Jeff, that is just what a WotC shill would say.

Which would probably explain the Mike Mearls underpants I guess.

Quote from: Koltar;1098991Maybe not - at Gen Con PAIZO and Pathfinder have taken over the Sagamore ballroom. That is where D&D 'ruled' from 2003 to about 2015.

Now it is all dozens of Pathfinder and Starfinder player groups having fun.

- Ed C.

Got any pictures of that?

Quote from: Melan;1098751And all this time, I have been running con games for free like an absolute chump.

Up-charging, from what I can tell, is an unusual thing to do at Gencon. I ran 8 games at last week's Gencon. I couldn't imagine charging for them on top of everything else. All sessions were 4 hours. All tables were sold out, so that's--what, almost 50 players? Everyone had a great time.

Quote from: Melan;1098751But then the only ones I still trust are small, focused affairs where the expectations are laid out openly and the event is focused on actual play. Those have worked pretty well for me.

Actually, other than the fact that GenCon had 70,000 people a day, so far as running games went it was a small, intimate affair. All the games were in their own quiet rooms of only 4 tables. It was rarely too noisy. The smaller cons I go to are usually all in one, ear-splitting room.

I can't speak for the games that happened in huge halls at Gencon, like the board and card games, but the RPGs were laid out to be downright cozy.


//Panjumanju

Quote from: jeff37923;1099001Got any pictures of that?

Yes, - if you bothered to search the posts I did last year - you will see Pathfinder tables filling the Sagamore room.
Here Lazy butt, take a look, from 2018, on 'here': https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?39377-Gen-Con-2018-THURSDAY-Photos-pictures-other-comments&highlight=gen+con+2018

Quote from: Koltar;1099051Yes, - if you bothered to search the posts I did last year - you will see Pathfinder tables filling the Sagamore room.
Here Lazy butt, take a look, from 2018, on 'here': https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?39377-Gen-Con-2018-THURSDAY-Photos-pictures-other-comments&highlight=gen+con+2018

Bolding mine.

Well, at least you got some good shots of cosplayer Carmen San Diego.....

Quote from: Panjumanju;1099048All the games were in their own quiet rooms of only 4 tables....but the RPGs were laid out to be downright cozy.

My friends who do D&D are always in a giant ballroom of noise and when I ran games at GenCon we were stuck in a rooms of a dozen plus tables and I wound up taking my groups to various other locales so we could hear each other. The only small-ish RPG rooms of 6-8 tables that I remember were assigned for game companies who were doing official games or demos.

Tell us more about these 4 table rooms! I'm glad to hear that's changed.

Four games in a room would be okay, depending on the other 3 tables.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1099061My friends who do D&D are always in a giant ballroom of noise and when I ran games at GenCon we were stuck in a rooms of a dozen plus tables and I wound up taking my groups to various other locales so we could hear each other. The only small-ish RPG rooms of 6-8 tables that I remember were assigned for game companies who were doing official games or demos.

Tell us more about these 4 table rooms! I'm glad to hear that's changed.

Four games in a room would be okay, depending on the other 3 tables.

Some points of disclosure:
* This GenCon was my first and so-far only GenCon, so my experience is limited
* GenCon is huge, I have no idea what goes at half of it (I didn't even make it to the stadium)
* I was in fact repping a company for their game (for whom I freelance) but the other three tables in the room were not

The 4 table rooms were in a hallway at the RW Marriot. Easy walk from the convention floor; starbucks on the way - not that I ever got through the line. Not all 4 tables were always occupied. Also - probably a lot more awesome than it should be - there was water, hot and cold, just outside the room. So I could make oatmeal and things. This was really important since I was in the room all day for two and a half days with only the food I brought.

Honestly it felt like the a smallest convention I've ever been to when it came to running tables, because I didn't go anywhere else until the games were done. Then I hit the showfloor to check in with out booth, and bam! more people than live in the city where I live. It was a bizarre juxtaposition.

Would game again.

//Panjumanju

I was at the starfinder hall at 11  and there were at least forty players.  Can confirm.

Quote from: Panjumanju;1099095Some points of disclosure:

You rolled a 20 on your GenCon.

What game were you repping? Pimp it!

Quote from: Spinachcat;1099142What game were you repping? Pimp it!

I work freelance for Pendelhaven Press as a writer and graphic designer. At GenCon I had a full dance card running their game, Fate of the Norns: Ragnarok, a viking RPG where you use runes instead of dice. Here's a link: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/112998/Fate-of-the-Norns-Ragnarok

Basically GenCon was me having fun running games for days. I was pleased to run an adventure module (someone called me a grogonard for saying "module" the other day) called Dead Man's Blade, which I wrote and laid out, and should be out in print and on DriveThruRPG any day now.

I legitimately have nothing but good things to say about Pendelhaven. They're good people.

//Panjumanju

I hope you will forgive me if I do not kneel before the almighty GenCon. The last time I attended I was made to feel unwelcome by staff and other attendees due to my disabilities. I go to other Cons large and small and I am treated well.

Quote from: dungeon crawler;1100291The last time I attended I was made to feel unwelcome by staff and other attendees due to my disabilities.

That sounds rough. I have some friends specifically interested in RPGs and disability studies. If you'd like to share what happened I'd be interested to know.

//Panjumanju

Quote from: Shasarak;1098541I have always wanted to go to Gen Con but it seems like now Paizo Con would give a much better gaming experience.

I would like to go to PaizoCon and Dundracon on the West Coast. Have heard good things (for the most part) about both shows, which means they seem to be well run and fun conventions.

Quote from: dungeon crawler;1100291I hope you will forgive me if I do not kneel before the almighty GenCon. The last time I attended I was made to feel unwelcome by staff and other attendees due to my disabilities. I go to other Cons large and small and I am treated well.

What happened? Im handicapped and have never had an issue with staff or attendees at any con and only seen one real occasion of attendees acting badly towards a handicapped player in all the many different cons been to.

Quote from: dungeon crawler;1100291I hope you will forgive me if I do not kneel before the almighty GenCon. The last time I attended I was made to feel unwelcome by staff and other attendees due to my disabilities. I go to other Cons large and small and I am treated well.

Really? I'd understand if you didn't want to answer, but what disability do you have?

It seems strange to me that, woke as Gencon is, they wouldn't be falling over themselves to accommodate you.

Quote from: dungeon crawler;1100291I hope you will forgive me if I do not kneel before the almighty GenCon. The last time I attended I was made to feel unwelcome by staff and other attendees due to my disabilities. I go to other Cons large and small and I am treated well.

What the heck is your disability?
Are you in a wheelchair?
Do you walk with a cane?
Are you Blind?
Are You Deaf?

Look in my photos thread - that cane or walking stick with me is not a prop affection - I really do have almost constant pain issues in my legs and knees. The actual staff and volunteers at Gen Con have always been good with me.

Only 'rude' people I see are average people in the crowd - usually younger ones that look at their cell phones too much.

- Ed C.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1101594It seems strange to me that, woke as Gencon is, they wouldn't be falling over themselves to accommodate you.

In my experience, game conventions and gamers were very accommodating to disabled gamers long before the fake caring outrage culture woke bullshit.

Many years ago, the elevators went down at a NorCal convention and I was running an 8pm to midnight game. Around 8:40,  an organizer told me a disabled gamer had wanted to join my game, but couldn't. My whole table didn't blink or hesitate when I said lets bring the game down to him and restart the session.

There was no "oh we're so virtuous", it was just gaming as usual, treating fellow gamers like new friends.

Quote from: Koltar;1101598What the heck is your disability?
Are you in a wheelchair?
Do you walk with a cane?
Are you Blind?
Are You Deaf?

Look in my photos thread - that cane or walking stick with me is not a prop affection - I really do have almost constant pain issues in my legs and knees. The actual staff and volunteers at Gen Con have always been good with me.

Only 'rude' people I see are average people in the crowd - usually younger ones that look at their cell phones too much.

- Ed C.

I walk with a cane due to nerve damage from my diabetes. I also must keep my emergency kit on hand at all times. I know this makes many people uncomfortable but it cannot be helped. At the time I had constant glucose monitor due to my chemotherapy for cancer and several people including some game masters told me to leave their table because of their discomfort when the monitor buzzed. The staff I talked to were not interested in the problem as they were overwhelmed. I never went back because other cons great me better.

Gen Con used to an important venue for the intro of new ideas and products , and a way to network.
In my opinion, the internet has replaced much of that.

IMHO, the main function of Gen Con now is "Gamer Versailles" or like  "Gamer Davos"

in other words, the purpose of Gen Con goers is to show off their wealth, and display their coolness,
by getting FIRST  into whatever is the new game or book.

so yes, Gen Con is still relevant, but carries a lot of subtext and overtones.

 (credentials: I've been to 5 gencons)