I have no idea why Rolemaster is sometimes made fun of and called "chartmaster" when we also have 1st ed AD&D. Sadly, I don't have a copy with me, but I once (many years ago) read the whole thing (all three books) pretty thoroughly and posted some......interesting observations on RPG.net

Anyway, one thing that really baffles me was the many tables in the books, some of them seeming rather, shall we say, unnecessary at best. Or did you actually use them? I'm talking about tables such as the Multiple Miners Table (listing type of rock vs race of miners), the infamous Random Harlot Table, the Spy Failure table, and others. Did these ever come to practical use?

I think I might have used the mining table in a dwarf fortress themed game.
Hey, Daztur, did we do that?

Depending on the campaign any of those tables could be interesting, useful, or even vital.

As for the oft trotted out harlot table. Actually it is a sub encounter for the random town encounters, along with the random drunk one. The harlot one is a misnomer as its is a deliberate mix of prostitutes, pimps, and just generally flirty women, or even thieves out to lure victims. Considering that section is patterned after Lankhmar and specifically mentions it. Probably makes sense in context.

Also the tables are great for solo play when no DM is handy, or when the DM just needs a quick idea.

Other than modern day prudery, I've never understood the flak the random harlot sub-table gets. You seriously think that a fantasy city wouldn't have prostitutes?  So why wouldn't they be on an encounter table?

It's funny how almost every sign of "sin" has been scrubbed from modern RPGs, almost like it was written by Ned Flanders, except of course, you have PC stuff, like gay marriage and transgendered characters. But prostitutes? Topless women? Unacceptable.

And the big difference between AD&D and Rolemaster is that the random tables are an integral part of Rolemaster's combat system.

In the DMG, the tables are just to help the GM. They (except the to hit and turning undead table) aren't really needed to play, just to generate encounters, flesh out dungeons or rooms, or in the case of the mining table, to help with construction time for strongholds.

One of the ways that the game has changed since the '70s is that you have fixed groups. In the old days, very early days, you'd have a DM (or two) running a dungeon and the world around the dungeon and you'd' have people constantly dropping in and out, with some players having multiple characters. Time would always be moving, so when someone wanted to build a castle or their own dungeon, you couldn't just handwave it away.

In modern terms, early D&D games were more like sandbox MMORPGs, with each DM running his own server.

If you look at early Dragons, there was a column called "Mapping the Dungeons". It was to help people find DMs running games like that.

By the 80s, that was pretty much over, games moved to a more fixed group, story based game (like single player computer RPGs)

Quote from: Trond;849105unnecessary at best

They're necessary, I think, because they are a model of how to develop your own gaming world. Each table says something specific about the implied AD&D environment (which may or may not match up with how a particular DM wants to run his game), and thus creates a whole world without a bunch of boring-ass fluff. For instance, the random city encounter table includes stuff like spectres and illusionists. This says a lot more about Gygaxian cities than the sort of crap in the preface to WoD games. Further, it's useful for ideas, even if you disagree with parties of adventurers getting accosted by a spectre in city. In the very least, you can make your own table and get rid of all the crap you don't like. A narrative would basically be useless if you didn't like the initial premise.

To answer the question, I'm sure I've used all those tables at one time or another. And then I got a lot better at running games and was able to make it all up myself because I understood their initial intent.

Quote from: Cave Bear;849108I think I might have used the mining table in a dwarf fortress themed game.
Hey, Daztur, did we do that?

Yeah, I used the chart about how fast each race could dig through rock etc.

Yes, I use them. So much so that I wrote my own book largely consisting of expansions to those and other tables. My larger goal is to keep track of the results that come up in preparation and play and gradually build up a campaign world that is uniquely my own. Sure, not everything could be used in every single game but part of the enjoyment I get out of it is knowing that stuff exists. I don't much enjoy a whole bunch of fluff handed to me on a plate, I prefer to have tools to generate it myself. If something like mining comes up, I like to have a crunchy bit to refer to, which IMO only adds to the verisimilitude of the campaign. You should see my Traveler campaign - I play that mostly solitaire and have so many tables for every conceivable situation I couldn't even begin to put them all together in a way that would make sense to anyone else, which is fine since I'm not concerned about anyone else.

Quote from: JeremyR;849122Other than modern day prudery, I've never understood the flak the random harlot sub-table gets. You seriously think that a fantasy city wouldn't have prostitutes?  So why wouldn't they be on an encounter table?

It's funny how almost every sign of "sin" has been scrubbed from modern RPGs, almost like it was written by Ned Flanders, except of course, you have PC stuff, like gay marriage and transgendered characters. But prostitutes? Topless women? Unacceptable.

I think you miss the point. The rissibleness of the random harlot is for the same reasons you don't really need a list of 20 different pole arms.....

In truth I have used the mining table and most others at some point.

The worst table in AD&D is the random PC height and weight table. Nothing upsets a player as much as learning their barbarian is 5'2" and weighs 90lbs or the one playing the sexy ninja assassin babe who turns out to be 5'1" and 130 lbs.......

Yeah, I'm not going to protest the presence of prostitutes in a setting. They're pretty common in virtually all real cultures after all. One of my favorite games, Artesia, has far more sex in the background material than D&D. Still, the way it is listed in 1st Ed AD&D makes me chuckle. Maybe that's intentional.

The multiple miners table was what really made me scratch my head though.

Also: comparing to Rolemaster, in RM the tables are used all the time, but they are actually quick to use when you get used to it. Years ago I was in a group that played RM and 2nd ed AD&D (not 1st ed) and RM was generally faster (except character creation if I remember correctly). Both systems definitely had some rules hiccups if you ask me though.

Quote from: Trond;849610Yeah, I'm not going to protest the presence of prostitutes in a setting. They're pretty common in virtually all real cultures after all. One of my favorite games, Artesia, has far more sex in the background material than D&D. Still, the way it is listed in 1st Ed AD&D makes me chuckle. Maybe that's intentional.

The multiple miners table was what really made me scratch my head though.

Also: comparing to Rolemaster, in RM the tables are used all the time, but they are actually quick to use when you get used to it. Years ago I was in a group that played RM and 2nd ed AD&D (not 1st ed) and RM was generally faster (except character creation if I remember correctly). Both systems definitely had some rules hiccups if you ask me though.

1: I got stopped by a prostitute on my way to my hotel at GenCon 2000. Later as was prepping to leave at the end was stopped by a beggar (claiming his bike was broken down and needed money.)

2: The DMG was trying to cover as many things as possible. Hence some of the odder tables. Or tables at all. Tools in place if someone needed them.

3: The probable big difference is that the majority of the AD&D tables are for the most part either pre-adventure prep aids. Or very situational. Of you never visited a town or city then youd never need that section for example. And a DM did not have to use it anyhow. It even states it is there for when the DM wants a quick encounter when nothing is prepped. All optional. Even the roll itself did not have to be accepted if it did not fit.

I've probably used most of the tables at some point or another.

I'm thinking I need to start using my 1e DMG with my 5e game. 5e is lacking in encounter tables and a lot of the other handy 1e DMG tools.

Quote from: S'mon;850889I'm thinking I need to start using my 1e DMG with my 5e game. 5e is lacking in encounter tables and a lot of the other handy 1e DMG tools.

The 5e DM is supposed to tailor them to the locale or situation. Hence no generic tables.

But the map gen stuff is definitely lacking in 5e, least so far.