Linky. (http://privateerpress.com/iron-kingdoms/iron-kingdoms-preview-video)
The circle is now complete.
Kick-ass D&D 3.x/d20 steampunk fantasy setting --> crazy money-making miniature wargame --> stand-alone RPG with system based on the miniature game's.
Plenty of hype but not much info, sadly. But I just thought I'd drop this here and see if anyone's excited.
For a bit of polemics: IK looks and feels quite a bit like Warhammer Fantasy to me. Will the IK RPG compete with WFRP 3e, the way Pathfinder competed (successfully) with D&D 4e? Will disgruntled WFRP 2e players flock to IK? Discuss.
Not to keen on needing 4 books for the setting options to be complete.
Quote from: The Butcher;512687Linky. (http://privateerpress.com/iron-kingdoms/iron-kingdoms-preview-video)
The circle is now complete.
Kick-ass D&D 3.x/d20 steampunk fantasy setting --> crazy money-making miniature wargame --> stand-alone RPG with system based on the miniature game's.
Plenty of hype but not much info, sadly. But I just thought I'd drop this here and see if anyone's excited.
For a bit of polemics: IK looks and feels quite a bit like Warhammer Fantasy to me. Will the IK RPG compete with WFRP 3e, the way Pathfinder competed (successfully) with D&D 4e? Will disgruntled WFRP 2e players flock to IK? Discuss.
Looks good. With the original manuals fetching ridiculous prices on Ebay, I must say this is welcome.
For your polemos:
Iron Kingdoms isn't like Warhammer Fantasy at all. The overall tech level is higher and superstitions don't run as rampant. It's a completely different feel.
The RPG will not compete with WFRP 3e. Is that even on anyone's radar? I don't think anyone here actually collects that, the faves seem to be 1e and 2e (2e personally).
Warhammer players tend to react with disdain towards Warmachine. Very little crossover between groups, I've found. Usually only hardcore wargamers will actually bother to care about the difference, as they have their own models for each game.
I've found most roleplayers could give two shits and a fuck what game I run, as long as it's not WFRP 3e.
The setting feels different, and I'm not even into the miniatures game.
I'm waiting for it. Hopefully, I'll have money when it comes out.
Well, they certainly have the money to do an RPG with high production values, get it into gameshops and support it with miniatures.
This wasn't anywhere on my radar, but I'm interested.
It sounds like it will use the same basic system as the wargame, just with more stats and combat options. I don't know how much granularity the wargame has, but 2d6+stat doesn't strike me as that fine a scale.
Quote from: CRKrueger;512696Well, they certainly have the money to do an RPG with high production values, get it into gameshops and support it with miniatures.
This wasn't anywhere on my radar, but I'm interested.
It sounds like it will use the same basic system as the wargame, just with more stats and combat options. I don't know how much granularity the wargame has, but 2d6+stat doesn't strike me as that fine a scale.
It's not that fine a scale, but does it really need to be?
The wargame's mechanics aren't arcane at all.
The stat sheet looks something like this (there's extra stuff but this is the meat):
- Ranged Attack
- Melee Attack
- Armor
- Defense
These numbers will have some basic values, such as these for a normal trooper:
- Ranged Attack (RAT 5)
- Melee Attack (MAT 6)
- Armor (ARM 12)
- Defense (DEF 15)
So it's like this. In order to effect an attack, you roll (2d6+RAT) for Ranged attacks and (2d6+MAT) for Melee attacks, targeting your opponents defense. In the case of our trooper here, he'd need to roll 9 on 2d6 to strike an identical trooper with a sword. (2d6+MAT 6 vs. DEF 15)
To roll damage, take a look at the weapon stats. These are easy, just a range (if applicable) and a Power. For melee weapons, add your power to your strength score. Take your Power (or Power+Strength) and add to 2d6 (just like the attack) but this time target armor. For each point you beat the armor score by, the target suffers 1 damage to his life meter (swirl).
So, a sword has like power 3 and your trooper has 4 strength, so he rolls (2d6+7) vs. Armor 12. If a trooper has 1 life point (and they mostly do) that means in order to kill his opponent, he needs to roll 6 on 2d6. (2d6+(P+S=7)) vs. ARM 12).
That's the wargame. The RPG will probably be similar. I for one am happy the mechanics are less burgeoning that the story material. I figure some of you self proclaimed "old school" guys probably could appreciate that.
I'm not a fan of the wargame (plays too much like a CCG for me) but I do like the setting/miniatures and would be curious about the RPG... maybe buy it for ideas/reference with a different set of rules.
As mentioned, the setting is quite different than WFRP but that would be my first choice for system to use, a matter of taste... if I could figure out a good way to do Warcasters.
I wonder how system neutral the 3 none rulebooks will be? i may be interested in them if they dont have a ton of rules and stuff cluttering up the world info.
I never really got into the wargame, but the Iron Kingdoms setting for d20 was absolutely kick-ass. I'll give their new RPG a try when it comes out.
Ed Bourelle works for Privateer Press. That's cool.
That's the guy who had Skeleton Key Games and a terrific mapper (he did all the Ptolus maps). Nice person too.
Does anyone know if Privateer Press will continue supporting the d20 Iron Kingdoms setting or will it all go over to their house system?
Quote from: Blackhand;512704It's not that fine a scale, but does it really need to be?
It doesn't need to be, and I can definitely roll with simple, it's just that when the ranges are so small, that leaves little room for character growth, fighting styles, magic items, all the little things. WFRP1 for example, took 1d6 and busted it out to d100, which left room for little bonuses here and there you could tinker with.
Quote from: jeff37923;512728Does anyone know if Privateer Press will continue supporting the d20 Iron Kingdoms setting or will it all go over to their house system?
They've stopped supporting the D20 game mechanics in No Quarter a while ago, iirc, but the setting is the same one as Warmachine/Hordes, isn't it?
Quote from: CRKrueger;512741They've stopped supporting the D20 game mechanics in No Quarter a while ago, iirc, but the setting is the same one as Warmachine/Hordes, isn't it?
Yup, same setting as the wargame.
Some additional info:
Quote from: Lost Hemisphere Blog- The RPG has a heavy miniature focus for combat
- There are no immediate plans to convert the Witchfire Trilogy to the new IKRPG system (sounds like a job for the fans!)
- There will be a new campaign book instead with a new story
- All classes will have inherent bonuses to make them comparable to warcasters in performance, so no "Jedi's sidekick syndrome"
- Character creation is a fluid system. They estimate an hour at most to make your character, with "no calculus required".
- No initial plans for a digital release, but it's being explored
Quote from: CRKrueger;512731It doesn't need to be, and I can definitely roll with simple, it's just that when the ranges are so small, that leaves little room for character growth, fighting styles, magic items, all the little things. WFRP1 for example, took 1d6 and busted it out to d100, which left room for little bonuses here and there you could tinker with.
Not for hundreds of fighting styles no, but a few would be nice. There are several levels of power in the wargame, not just flat troopers.
The numbers in some cases go quite high, and other factors than just the 2d6 roll must be considered, such as "Power Attacks" and skills such as Dodge, Tough and Parry.
Quote from: Blackhand;512690Iron Kingdoms isn't like Warhammer Fantasy at all. The overall tech level is higher and superstitions don't run as rampant. It's a completely different feel.
The RPG will not compete with WFRP 3e. Is that even on anyone's radar? I don't think anyone here actually collects that, the faves seem to be 1e and 2e (2e personally).
You're probably right, waht similarities exist between the two settings are fairly superficial. Nonetheless, most geeks are a tad more superficial, and more easily distracted by shiny things, than they're willing to admit. ;)
Quote from: Blackhand;512690Warhammer players tend to react with disdain towards Warmachine. Very little crossover between groups, I've found. Usually only hardcore wargamers will actually bother to care about the difference, as they have 1their own models for each game.
Interesting. I expected some crossover.
Quote from: Blackhand;512690I've found most roleplayers could give two shits and a fuck what game I run, as long as it's not WFRP 3e.
:rotfl:
I like steampunk, and I heard good stuff about this system, so I may give it a try. But as a replacement for Warhammer? Nah. Most people still play 2e, and some madmen like me stick to the best edition (1e). 3e is for the New Kids On The Block.
Dude in video: "I think [the IK setting offers] a lot more types of adventure than are usually afforded by your typical fantasy roleplaying games."
Really? With a straight face, even.
That aside, Privateer makes good stuff, and I wish 'em the best.
Quote from: The Butcher;512766Interesting. I expected some crossover.
Actually for about a year I've been on a Warmachine recruitment drive here at the club. It's hard to get someone into a wargame, especially if that person already plays GW wargames (GW games are expensive). Trust me, I know.
There's just something about Warmachine that seems to rub most Warhammer players the wrong way. I had this problem for a long time, and it's mostly nailed to the fact that most people only have time and money for one miniature fantasy world with all the gubbinz.
That's most people. I like all kinds of wargames, so our Warmachine clique has been growing inside our Warhammer groups.
To summarize: Warhammer players don't generally get into Warmachine, but every Warmachine player I know is a Warhammer player. Crossover achieved.
I'm cautiously optimistic. Loved the setting, and the art is second to none, but heavily miniature focused could be a killer, depending on how they implement it.
Still, I think it's a good move. 3rd edition never quite seemed to be a good fit for the Iron Kingdoms.
This is one of those games that's not really aimed at roleplayers exclusively. It may have started as D20, but now Warmachine is it's own thing.
This game will pander to players of Warmachine who already own miniatures, much like other crossover tabletop wargames such as Warhammer.
Interesting, a decent number of Warmachine players I see here are ex-Warhammer players sick of GW. There are a lot of people who do both though.
The big difference I see between PP and GW is that PP actively supports their RPG line with minis, even making Witchfire minis.
I'm hoping this game is more like WFRP1, a true RPG as opposed to Inquisitor.
Quote from: CRKrueger;513164Interesting, a decent number of Warmachine players I see here are ex-Warhammer players sick of GW. There are a lot of people who do both though.
The big difference I see between PP and GW is that PP actively supports their RPG line with minis, even making Witchfire minis.
I'm hoping this game is more like WFRP1, a true RPG as opposed to Inquisitor.
No, that's incorrect. They don't support any rpg since Iron Kingdoms went out of print years ago. Those minis you are talking about were the first ones made, and eventually what gave birth to the wargame Warmachine.
GW has more support for RPG due to the massive amount of models available that aren't specifically used for the wargame.
And this game will be NOTHING like the rejected Asperger's therapy that was Inquisitor.
Quote from: Blackhand;513199GW has more support for RPG due to the massive amount of models available that aren't specifically used for the wargame.
Umm, name one?
Quote from: CRKrueger;513219Umm, name one?
Yeah, I'd like to hear that response as well - although I certainly grant I've been out of the "GW Hobby" for a few years now and know full well Blackhand plays.
Quote from: CRKrueger;513219Umm, name one?
I thought GW's production of minis for RPG went out around the time of 6e.
I didn't say they made RPG miniatures, just ones that aren't specifically used for the wargame. You can use any miniature you can find in the wargame.
Many of these aren't specific units therein.
Start with this page and work yourself out (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat500016a&rootCatGameStyle=).
Miniature gaming is an immense hobby and there are a lot of pages like this. If you pay attention to the seasonal minis they offer, some are usable in the wargame (like the new 25th anniversary Crimson Fist standard bearer) and some are not (the space dwarf from WD subs last year).
Quote from: CRKrueger;513219Umm, name one?
There are miniatures for characters from Inquisitor.
And White Dwarf advertises FFG books.
Inquisitor is the wrong scale, unless you're doing everything in 54mm.
White Dwarf has always advertised anything that has to do with GW's IP, no matter what company makes it.
I love love love the IK setting. I really do.
However I am disheartened that the rules are done in house as PP has proven again and again, that they are not capable of making good rules or achieve even basic design goals.
When they switched from first to second edition it was because some things had become obsolete and there were ridiculous threat ranges involved where you could shoot beyond the enemy's deployment zone in certain cases. They wanted to change that, yet second edition is ALL about huge threat ranges. *sigh*
Quote from: DominikSchwager;513725I love love love the IK setting. I really do.
However I am disheartened that the rules are done in house as PP has proven again and again, that they are not capable of making good rules or achieve even basic design goals.
When they switched from first to second edition it was because some things had become obsolete and there were ridiculous threat ranges involved where you could shoot beyond the enemy's deployment zone in certain cases. They wanted to change that, yet second edition is ALL about huge threat ranges. *sigh*
I don't think you've ever played Warmachine, and if you have, you've never played another wargame. They didn't change a ridiculous amount of rules in the edition switch.
Warmachine's weapon ranges are ridiculously small, but the game itself is actually quite tight. We've been running a campaign for the last few weeks, and it's not our first Warmachine rodeo.
Why would you be mad you could shoot into your opponent's zone? That's a newbie thing to say.
Long range in warmachine: 16" on a Heavy Barrel and you can augment that to 20" with a spell.
Long range in Warhammer 40,000: 72" on an Earthshaker cannon. Also, normal engagement range is 24", well into your opponent's deployment zone.
The difference between wargames and rpg's is that wargames are designed to be competitive, and roughly even balance between matches. RPG's don't do that.
For your information, 2 editions of a wargame in 10 or so years is pretty fucking good. Hell that's good for an RPG, and you definitely do not run into the same problems with RPGs that scream a new editions, yet you buy new ones anyways.
By this logic you should HATE with a passion every publisher who ever touched D&D or another 3+ edition game.
Quote from: Blackhand;513744I don't think you've ever played Warmachine, and if you have, you've never played another wargame. They didn't change a ridiculous amount of rules in the edition switch.
Warmachine's weapon ranges are ridiculously small, but the game itself is actually quite tight. We've been running a campaign for the last few weeks, and it's not our first Warmachine rodeo.
Why would you be mad you could shoot into your opponent's zone? That's a newbie thing to say.
Long range in warmachine: 16" on a Heavy Barrel and you can augment that to 20" with a spell.
Long range in Warhammer 40,000: 72" on an Earthshaker cannon. Also, normal engagement range is 24", well into your opponent's deployment zone.
The difference between wargames and rpg's is that wargames are designed to be competitive, and roughly even balance between matches. RPG's don't do that.
For your information, 2 editions of a wargame in 10 or so years is pretty fucking good. Hell that's good for an RPG, and you definitely do not run into the same problems with RPGs that scream a new editions, yet you buy new ones anyways.
By this logic you should HATE with a passion every publisher who ever touched D&D or another 3+ edition game.
I was well on the way to be a top 10 player in the german warmachine circuit when university got in the way. Considering that players ranked 78 and 79 made top 10 on gencon I think that says a lot about how competitiv that circuit is. While you americans sit around in one town and play among each other, we travel to a lot of different tournaments, which makes our meta a lot more evolved and a lot more competitive. I also played other wargames on tournaments. So, yes, I have ample experience. Likely a lot more than you ever get in your little club, playing with your friends in "campaigns".
So, that much for your "experience" and mine. Then, there is a fundamental difference between shooting into deployment zones in the different games and that my complaint wasn't actually about shooting into deployment zones. It was about PP setting a design goal and then failing horribly at achieving it.
Also, I never complained about them making a new edition, I complained about them not doing what they set out to do with the new edition.
Also, your examples show that you actually know jack (pun intended) about Warmachine. Yes, an unaugmented Defender has only 21" threat, with caine it is only 26", also true. But let's face it, nCaine is a subpar caster in the current meta, especially when you compare him to eCaine and his 30" "I don't care that you are invisible or behind a wall of jacks" threat or eHaley and her what? 27" 2 Defender shots with 2 focus for boosts? And that is Cygnar, the faction notorious for having lost the threat range game. Shall we try again with someone like Skorne or Khador?
Between good players warmachine was turned into a game of chicken... of course in the american meta one only looks to the P+S of the weapon to determine who is boss...
Quote from: DominikSchwager;513885I was well on the way to be a top 10 player in the german warmachine circuit when university got in the way. Considering that players ranked 78 and 79 made top 10 on gencon I think that says a lot about how competitiv that circuit is. While you americans sit around in one town and play among each other, we travel to a lot of different tournaments, which makes our meta a lot more evolved and a lot more competitive. I also played other wargames on tournaments. So, yes, I have ample experience. Likely a lot more than you ever get in your little club, playing with your friends in "campaigns".
So, that much for your "experience" and mine. Then, there is a fundamental difference between shooting into deployment zones in the different games and that my complaint wasn't actually about shooting into deployment zones. It was about PP setting a design goal and then failing horribly at achieving it.
Also, I never complained about them making a new edition, I complained about them not doing what they set out to do with the new edition.
Also, your examples show that you actually know jack (pun intended) about Warmachine. Yes, an unaugmented Defender has only 21" threat, with caine it is only 26", also true. But let's face it, nCaine is a subpar caster in the current meta, especially when you compare him to eCaine and his 30" "I don't care that you are invisible or behind a wall of jacks" threat or eHaley and her what? 27" 2 Defender shots with 2 focus for boosts? And that is Cygnar, the faction notorious for having lost the threat range game. Shall we try again with someone like Skorne or Khador?
Between good players warmachine was turned into a game of chicken... of course in the american meta one only looks to the P+S of the weapon to determine who is boss...
I think you're a little off base with our "American Meta". We don't sit around in our little towns, but crossing state lines
is a pain. We're actually pulling in guys from a few hundred miles away with our tournament games. The "campaigns" are structured as league games to keep everyone playing, not as one-off story games.
Must be nice with all those Euro countries conveniently located within a few hundred miles of one another, you can really get in some play time all over the place. Try that shit here in the states and see how long it takes you to get to Gen Con from the Southwest.
The rest of what you said is drivel. You were complaining about stupid shit that's not actually real. Your numbers you give for stats are wrong. All of them, everything you said about the Defender (from the range to number of possible shots) and the PP competitive circuit here (which is not managed by PP but rather by our club).
How would you know what the design goals for Warmachine Prime, Mk II were? You don't seem to know that much about it other than what you can squeeze out of a few paragraphs from a Google search and apply gamer intuition to. At least it seems that way, because all that is bullshit, I say again.
Oh yeah did I mention our club hosted several wargaming tournaments last year, including ('ard Boyz) - for the state? As in - the only one. I know that may not sound like it's a big deal - but in our geographic area that amounted to a convention. Our sphere of influence stretches about 150 miles in most directions, and get a lot of players from Texas. In fact, our turnout was greater than the large hobby stores in the biggest city in our state.
With so many Eurobitch players, how do your hobby centers handle them all? The way it's described there are thousands of rabid gamers, but in the states it's nothing like that in this area.
You don't give examples about what exactly those design goals are that you are mad about, other than the ones you have already given and decided were not the issue.
I think that says a lot about you Europeans.
BTW, for your information I use Lt. Caine. It's all about placement and timing, baby - just like most other things. People who claim ridiculous things like your entire post make me sick.
Defender moves 5, shoots 16 (21), 2 for TE on itself (23), 2 for TA (25) and 2 for TE on the enemy, makes 27". That costs 4 for tele and 3 for TA, which means, thanks to the Squire Haley can boost that twice. The second shot obviously comes from TA. Really? You even play Cygnar and don't know one of the basic bread and butter combos.
Also, if nCaine is successful in your local meta (and 150 miles is what... not even 300 kilometers, that is like not going to tournaments that are just around the corner), then you play with either people who go infantry heavy (we like to call them MKI players) and/or people who can't position their warcaster properly.
That, to use your words, says a lot about the rest of your post.
And I gave an example about the design goal, it was lowering threat ranges. They stated that, actually came out and said so, yet threat ranges grew. And once more, I am not mad about any design goals, I only state:
Privateer Press is not good at making rules. To support this claim I use one of their stated design goals "make threat ranges smaller" and apply it to MKII, which has a plethora of high threat ranges. Ergo, they didn't achieve their design goal, ergo, they are not good at making rules.
Also, your post doesn't make me sick, it makes me smile and giggle ^^
I still don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
Literally none of that made sense. TA? TE?? You're talking some shit right there buddy.
You also assume we used the top lists off the net and aren't smart enough to come up with surprise combos.
Maybe some of that makes sense, by 1st ed standards, but you need to get a Mk II book before you start talking about it. Some of that shit doesn't work like that anymore, most notably Tele. You can't use that as threat range.
Max range you can get on the defender is 20". That's with nCaine's spell Snipe.
I have no fucking idea what the rest of those acronyms mean. Presumably nothing.
Also, how many tournaments within 300km do you actually attend? Really? Damn son. That's some travel.
Quote from: Blackhand;514013I still don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
Literally none of that made sense. TA? TE?? You're talking some shit right there buddy.
You also assume we used the top lists off the net and aren't smart enough to come up with surprise combos.
Maybe some of that makes sense, by 1st ed standards, but you need to get a Mk II book before you start talking about it. Some of that shit doesn't work like that anymore, most notably Tele. You can't use that as threat range.
Max range you can get on the defender is 20". That's with nCaine's spell Snipe.
I have no fucking idea what the rest of those acronyms mean. Presumably nothing.
Also, how many tournaments within 300km do you actually attend? Really? Damn son. That's some travel.
Yes, I agree. You don't know what the fuck I am talking about, and you have no clue what the fuck you are talking about.
I regularly attended weekend long tournaments which were quite a bit farther away.
Also, TA is of course temporal acceleration and TE is of course Telekinesis. None of that comes "off the net" and I never assumed it would after all you don't need the net to put eHaley and a single Defender into the list. Do you now? So stop with the strawman.
And no, nothing of that comes from first edition. That was ALL MkII.
And for the record. The threatrange on a defender with nCaine is 25" (actually 26 with push, but it is kinda daft to have 2 heavies with nCaine ^^). Movement is part of the threatrange. Also, you should perhaps crack a rulebook or read some of your Cygnar cards before you continue that discussion, son. Or do we need to go over eHaley's card (and others?) spell by spell and I explain it to you, son? There seems to be some need for that.
Quote from: DominikSchwager;514064Yes, I agree. You don't know what the fuck I am talking about, and you have no clue what the fuck you are talking about.
I regularly attended weekend long tournaments which were quite a bit farther away.
Also, TA is of course temporal acceleration and TE is of course Telekinesis. None of that comes "off the net" and I never assumed it would after all you don't need the net to put eHaley and a single Defender into the list. Do you now? So stop with the strawman.
And no, nothing of that comes from first edition. That was ALL MkII.
And for the record. The threatrange on a defender with nCaine is 25" (actually 26 with push, but it is kinda daft to have 2 heavies with nCaine ^^). Movement is part of the threatrange. Also, you should perhaps crack a rulebook or read some of your Cygnar cards before you continue that discussion, son. Or do we need to go over eHaley's card (and others?) spell by spell and I explain it to you, son? There seems to be some need for that.
Sorry I didn't answer yesterday, I was busy actually playing Warmachine.
So lets talk this over, shall we?
Here's what I'm getting from you:
"Privateer Press' game does not function correctly because they have a shitty staff and don't understand how wargames should be played."Followed by:
"This specific army is the only way anyone playing this specific faction should ever field, this should occur to everyone without thinking about it. If not they are fucking stupid because this way that I run this army is the best."Both ideas are expressed in your posts, in as many words. However, in reality neither is actually an issue, as they are patently untrue.
You only cite this one warcasters' specific spells, which do not apply to anyone else in the game. You're really stretching your powers of tactical acumen, not to mention stifling your creative energies with silly ideas of "my army beats ur army no roll" bullshit.
Nobody's pushing anyone. There is no telekinesis. I'm not using Haley, or a Reinhold or a Squire like all the other cool kids at your games. That's just not being creative and who wants to play if everyone has the same army?
You're the only person talking about Haley. I'm with Caine and the game in general, but you seem pretty fixated on this one warcaster and what she's able to do. I could give a shit if you think she's best, or what her threat range is. She's not on my list and I can't use any of her powers if she's not my warcaster.
All those power attacks and spells are a waste of fucking time. I know you can do a lot of tricks when you set up your assassination run, but those are entirely situational, baby. Also, I don't really see that such attack runs have changed much at all in Mk II.
I know about all those things, what I'm wondering is how the fuck you think it's relevant to what we were talking about.
You're talking about an entirely different list - as if we all have to have the same list to do well. Is that idea comfortable with your competitive spirit? It must be, it seems to be the reason you no longer play Warmachine.
Did you lose to some other more effeminate eurotrash at one of those tourneys? You seem really bitter about the whole deal.
If you've attended all those tourneys and events you should know firsthand what I've picked up reading about other folks events before attempting to organize one. I know that certain lists pick up speed in the meta, it's like that with all games.
However, the list you are talking about is THE SAME FUCKING ONE that was pumped since MkII for being top tier. I don't think that's coincidence, hence the net comment. Anyone can build that army, but it's not bulletproof and I don't see it as an advantage. It just contains models I don't care for.
As proof this is all bullshit, I offer Gen Con Masters 2010 tournament results from Bell of Lost Souls (http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2010/09/warmachine-gencon-masters-2010-results.html). This is the first one after Mk II was released, just in case you were wondering.
Also, you started arguing about the placement during the beginning of the game then started talking about threat range for an assassination, which aren't really related.
Assassinations and the tactics that run up to them tend to take place between turns 3-5. Your bitch seems to be it's not confined to 1"/5ft squares with 2"/10ft reach and a maximum effective range of less than 12". Who the fuck wants to play that pussy game?
Do you even know what you're bitching about at this point or are you just barking aloud against ephemera?
ARF ARF!!
Your try to deflect has been noted. It didn't work.
You still have no clue about warmachine. I didn't bitch about a specific caster, I used one caster to show, that you have no clue, what your faction is capable of doing. I did so quite handily, seeing as it took you several posts to actually get it.
It went like this:
Me: Threat ranges got kinda ridiculous in MKII.
Blackhand: That's not true, even a Longarm only reaches 20" with one specific caster.
Me: That is factually wrong. Here is a quick and dirty example of how you reach much farther (and around a corner btw). It is only one of many examples.
Blackhand: I have no idea what you are talking about and all that stuff is probably MKI.
Me: No, read your card, it is all MKII and pretty basic.
Blackhand: Tries to deflect and fails.
Which brings us to this post.
And no, I was not beat by someone using eHaley, I actually like playing her. Like I said, it was an example. I was also not talking about a specific meta or anything like that, it was an example. And in my experience on tournaments player skills is what determines success and we have a couple of players who will win with whatever list they happen to bring.
Also the part you bolded is wrong. Again:
Privateer Press: Threat ranges need to go down in MKII.
Playtesters: These threat ranges get ridiculously long.
MK II: Game is dominated by huge threat ranges.
Privateer Press set out to achieve a certain goal, they did not do so, ergo they are not good at designing rules.
Don't get me wrong, I played with those rules on tournaments and had fun abusing them mercilessly. I especially enjoy telekinesis and its sheer brokenness and I still play warmachine.
That doesn't change the fact that PP didn't accomplish what they set out to do with their rules and I'd rather see someone with actual RPG experience try their hand at it.
And please, do us both a favour and stop with the strawmen and the desperate attempts at deflection.
I wasn't trying to deflect anything. Not sure what you mean by strawman. You're way more up on your internet-ese than I.
To all of what you said, whatthefuckever. You were talking specifics, and I'm pretty certain Privateer Press has RPG experience.
We don't have to talk about it anymore.
I think the real tragedy here is that you two are the only ones who apparently have any desire to talk WarMachine.
Quote from: VectorSigma;514310I think the real tragedy here is that you two are the only ones who apparently have any desire to talk WarMachine.
I hereby name thee Mad Arab VectorSigma, the one who shows uncomfortable truths that are not meant to be comprehended by Man.
Quote from: VectorSigma;514310I think the real tragedy here is that you two are the only ones who apparently have any desire to talk WarMachine.
So we have a thread to ourselves. I don't see a problem with that.
I just meant you guys came out of the gate claws out, could've developed into a great WM friendship. Or something.
Quote from: VectorSigma;514321I just meant you guys came out of the gate claws out, could've developed into a great WM friendship. Or something.
Oh, What Might Have Been.
Maybe hatred of a botched rpg version can reunite you. There is still hope!
(http://www.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/0903/fred-amp-barney-fred-and-barney-flinstone-rubble-bedrock-cav-demotivational-poster-1237657263.jpg)
Well I want to be Fred, Wilma is clearly the hotter wife.
Quote from: DominikSchwager;514397Well I want to be Fred, Wilma is clearly the hotter wife.
Go right ahead. Betty is easily triple her heat.
Quote from: Blackhand;514420Go right ahead. Betty is easily triple her heat.
!!!!
Quote from: VectorSigma;514310I think the real tragedy here is that you two are the only ones who apparently have any desire to talk WarMachine.
That's cuz the popularity of Warmahordeschine has fallen quite low in the past 3 years. Their MkII killed the game.
Sure they still have pockets of fans here and there, but the mass play they had circa 2007 will never be reached again.
Perhaps west of the Mississippi that is different and I gots no clue about overseas, but east of the Mississippi it's on the junk pile.
Maybe it's just my age showing, but 2007 doesn't seem like very long ago to me at all. It's kinda hard to make a ruling like that, since it's what...not quite five years?
Seems to be just catchin' on out here in the Southwest.
The game has been out since 2003.
Fun fact: the d20 IK RPG books which fetch obscene prices online, can be found here in Brazil in the bargain bins of game stores, and even regular bookstores and newstands... (Portuguese translations, naturally)
Quote from: Sommerjon;514436The game has been out since 2003.
Yeah, I know that. I was referring to your comment about 2007 being peak year.
Quote from: Sommerjon;514430Sure they still have pockets of fans here and there, but the mass play they had circa 2007 will never be reached again.
I'm starting to see elements of Forum Lurker's Syndrome in junior posters. We're having a bad outbreak here.
Quote from: The Butcher;514440Fun fact: the d20 IK RPG books which fetch obscene prices online, can be found here in Brazil in the bargain bins of game stores, and even regular bookstores and newstands... (Portuguese translations, naturally)
You know the four step profit plan, right?
Step 1: Buy a lot of them
Step 2: Sell them online as "Portuguese with English Instruction"
Step 3: ?????
Step 4: Profit
Quote from: Blackhand;514441Yeah, I know that. I was referring to your comment about 2007 being peak year.
I'm starting to see elements of Forum Lurker's Syndrome in junior posters. We're having a bad outbreak here.
I was a Press Ganger for 5 years.
Hell in it's heyday we had 7 PGs in a 60 mile radius, now... zero. We were having having tournaments 3 times a month, campaigns, open gaming, 80 people on average showing up to play in either the tournaments or campaigns or open gaming, you know cuz not everyone likes to play in tournaments or open gaming or campaigns. Before they even announced MKII people were already drifting away. So I started calling my old haunts and other contacts( I used to work for Ral Partha and GW back in the day, and did other demo work/playtest for other mini companies) Most places were seeing a decline or out right total stoppage of warmachine. Why do you think they came out with MKII? They knew people were leaving. Why do you think they made it an open test? To drum up renewed interest. Dom makes a good point about wtf were they thinking? They already knew that the 'experienced' players were leaving and needed either a renewed interest or a fresh crop of players. They couldn't keep all of the 'old guard', it's not how mini games work. When you add to that their model of a 3D-CCG which is what warmachine became(thats what happens when your owner was a card artist and your game designer was a painter for WotC's defunct Chainmail system) it's no wonder they are trying to ramp up interest, super heavies? wtf ever. Their RPG? hell they couldn't even produce a d20 version in any reasonable length of time. Lock & Load came out before the miniature game did. Their RPG is going to be a big fat failbomb.
They are gonna sell at least one (1) copy.
I have no doubt they will sell product. Maybe enough to cover their initial print run but not the total time investment. As a whole it will be a failbomb. Too many people got screwed with their d20 product.
Quote from: Sommerjon;514485I have no doubt they will sell product. Maybe enough to cover their initial print run but not the total time investment. As a whole it will be a failbomb. Too many people got screwed with their d20 product.
I couldn't disagree more.
Amongst my own club, Warmachine is catching more momentum since the announcement of the RPG.
I think it's going to be a nice addition.
Also, as an aside, I'd just like to make sure everyone knows about Colossals (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1N0NLykLyQ&feature=youtu.be). Across the board its better to get these games going if you're doing them all at once.
Time will tell who is right.
They have Colossals, the RPG, the Video Game, if they come out with a Bioware-grade CRPG, that would just about secure their IP for a while, then comes novels, and the eventual movie (provided they aren't idiotic about their IP like GW is.)
What does Colossals have to do with securing their IP?
I find it amusingly strange that GW was pandered, reviled, shit upon, etc about titans and their super heavies, yet good 'ol PP does it and they are the bestest evar.
Quote from: Sommerjon;514515What does Colossals have to do with securing their IP?
I find it amusingly strange that GW was pandered, reviled, shit upon, etc about titans and their super heavies, yet good 'ol PP does it and they are the bestest evar.
Nothing, I was just listing the ways they're expanding the IP bit by bit, it's the Bioware-grade CRPG by itself that would secure the IP.
On the issue of popularity I agree with Blackhand. WM is ridiculously popular and at least in my town we by far outnumber the warhammer players and Bayreuth is home to some 40k top players...
Quote from: Sommerjon;514515What does Colossals have to do with securing their IP?
I find it amusingly strange that GW was pandered, reviled, shit upon, etc about titans and their super heavies, yet good 'ol PP does it and they are the bestest evar.
Not everyone hates GW for all that they do.
Some of us actually want to buy their work.
Quote from: DominikSchwager;514521On the issue of popularity I agree with Blackhand. WM is ridiculously popular and at least in my town we by far outnumber the warhammer players and Bayreuth is home to some 40k top players...
Which is why I said I have no clue what happens overseas.
If it launches with the first book this year, I'll tie it in with the release of Colossals in the club!
Tell me, would you be interested in this scenario:
A band of adventurers working for the Protectorate, Cygnar, Ord, a mercenary contract in Llael or some other power infiltrate the Khadoran-occupied Llaelese countryside and play a huge part in the espionage and eventually first war the Colossals will take part in!
Yeah, I know that Colossals is for the wargame. However, there is a neat thing a lot of folk miss. The wargame and the RPG will have nearly directly translatable stats. You might have to convert the numbers, but it works wonders with other miniature games who have roleplaying games in those universes.
For example, WS3 in Warhammer Fantasy Battle translates to WS30-39 in WFRP 1e or 2e. Haven't seen the exact scale yet for Iron Kingdoms but it's very promising, meaning wargamers who already have material will have even more to work with.