Quote from: CitrusMagic;751855Have you ever tried to teach a non gamer how to roleplay? Like total newbs to the concept of RPGs. Im not asking to be sarcastic or anything its an honest question.

Yes... well... as 'newb to the concept' as a person can be with so many video games using similar elements.

QuoteI think we as gamers tend to forget that Chargen is overwhelming to an honest beginer and also meaningless since their choices mean nothing as they have nothing to base it on.

See, that right there is bullshit. It's only 'overwhelming' if the person teaching them is stressing the stupid optimization angle... the Numberwang crap.
That's NEVER been the approach that I've used and seldom has anyone tried to teach me a game from that angle.
No, what you say is, "Want to play a game of make-believe?", "What sort of character would you like to play as?"... and then you maybe make suggestions of well known characters in popular media that might fit the game setting. Most of the time there's no need.
The 7yr old I played Mermaid Adventures with got the idea right off. She knew precisely what sort of mermaid she wanted to be. Some pre-gen mermaid wouldn't have cut it.
It's just 'make believe'... that's all RPGs are... with a bit of rules to keep people honest and fair. Everyone has already done it as kids. It's not some lofty tower of secret knowledge or exalted pursuit of art. Approach it as 'play' and not as 'rules' or 'mathwank' and EVERYONE gets it.

I remember 4e's CCG power cards... wow was that a terrible idea. Still have the pack I got for free. Somewhere out there are people who were that detached from how the hobby works that they thought shoehorning that idea was good.

I suspect them to have failed upwards into greater management — or politics — because I'm that jaded.

Quote from: Simlasa;751895Yes... well... as 'newb to the concept' as a person can be with so many video games using similar elements.

It bears repeating that the vast, vast majority of video games with RPG elements that bother with chargen at all have an extremely quick and easy procedure that is largely automated for the player. One to three choices from a handful of options, all made with simple buttons clicks and less-than-a-paragraph descriptions in non-technical language. No picking skills, no picking powers until you're well into the game, and certainly no extended reading session. The longest part of this process for most people is choosing facial features, an entirely aesthetic activity.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;751898It bears repeating that the vast, vast majority of video games with RPG elements that bother with chargen at all have an extremely quick and easy procedure that is largely automated for the player. One to three choices from a handful of options, all made with simple buttons clicks and less-than-a-paragraph descriptions in non-technical language. No picking skills, no picking powers until you're well into the game, and certainly no extended reading session. The longest part of this process for most people is choosing facial features, an entirely aesthetic activity.

Keep in mind that in many CRPGS large chunks of the rules are picked up as you go and learned from reading the item, spell, or skill descriptions as opposed to in the manual. Quite a few CCGs did that later as well. The rules are on the cards as it were.

Quote from: Haffrung;751813Pretty much. I can't for the life of figure out why so many people who obviously want WotC to fail with Next are shedding so many crocodile tears over their 'disappointment' with the Starter Set.

It's not just here, but on RPGNet too (although that's an entirely different group of people who hate WotC for entirely different reasons). Why do people who are clearly emotionally invested in the prospect of WotC failing with Next pretend to have even the barest shred of objective concern about the game's success? Something about D&D seems to tap into an abyss if unreason. I don't see it in any other hobby (though granted, D&D is by far the geekiest of my interests, so maybe this kind of passive-aggressive obsession is not all that peculiar among geeks). A sociologist could have a field day with D&D online edition wars.

I totally agree.  Its not like its hard to tell the difference, either, between those who genuinely would like Wizards to succeed but feel great trepidation either based on things they've heard or on having felt betrayed before; and on the other hand those who feign deep concern but are very obviously gleeful with the notion of taking down D&D in general or WoTC in particular.

Quote from: Benoist;751824

Quote"
Paizo = Full FREE Game ...then buy what you want!
WOTC = Gimped Starter set, then pay $$$ for the full game."

And that's the truth.

Nope. That's actually just about the precise opposite of the truth.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;751898It bears repeating...

No it doesn't. The question wasn't about whether they were new to 'chargen in TTRPGs' it was 'newb to the concept of RPGs'... the idea of playing a game as a single character with distinct powers and abilities. Any kid whose got a Playstation gets that idea. Anyone who has played 'make believe' gets that idea.

And so what if CRPGs have quick/simple chargen? I'm not going to just plop a new person alone in a room with a book, I'm gonna walk them through the process from the viewpoint of them creating whatever sort of character they'd like to play. Their imagination comes first, the rules interpretation of that comes second.

Quote from: Simlasa;751826I'm not hating any of those things... what I'm hating is the idea of buying a 'starter' set where 'starter' doesn't mean 'start playing' it means 'start figuring out what else you need to play'.
I can buy an actual game for $20... I don't need to shell that out for a preview of a coming attraction.
If it turns out to be a complete game there'll be nothing to hate. Simple enough.

It is by any sane person's definition a complete game.

Quote from: Benoist;751840Which happens to completely miss the fucking point of a role playing game and turns it from a game of your imagination into a consumerist item with limited replay value. From an open model into a closed one. And in case you're a bit thick too, the main point here is not the limited replay value in and of itself; it's the actual missing of the entire fucking point of role playing games in empowering their users in the first place. So ... fail. Again.

Thank you.

Ok, never mind the fact that if you live anywhere but Burkina Faso or the Disputed Zone where internet doesn't exist, you can in fact create characters with this game, and thus have EVERYTHING you need to run any number of campaigns you want to run forever (with 2 MORE levels than the almost relic-like D&D Basic set of old had).  Never mind that. Let's take a look at your statement: are you seriously saying "creating a character is the entire fucking point of role playing games"?

So you mean the Denners were totally right? Its been about charop the whole time?
But by that logic shouldn't the "point" then be about having 20000 feats and point-buy options and advancement-trees so that you can map out precisely how your guy will look at level 20 before you've rolled his first stat?

Because if not that, I don't get what you're saying here.  The precise argument that many use against how "limited" Old-School D&D character creation is, is what you are now using against the Starter set.  They claim that old-school D&D sucks because you can "only ever make one fighter". There's no way to individualize the character, because we all know that individualizing the character is about what mechanical options you get to pick from or generate, right? Is that really what you're saying?

Because I think if I have 5 pregen characters, I hand them out to total newbs at random, and I tell them "Ok, this is a Dwarf Fighter, that's a human cleric, etc. But now you have to decide how they act and what they like and what they think and how they make decisions and how they feel about things.." then THAT, dude, is the ENTIRE FUCKING POINT of Roleplaying games.

The set-up Wizards has chosen will let a group of kids do exactly that, from the moment they open the box. AND it will also let those kids then go on to create characters, and theoretically keep playing this game forever, with everything they need just in the box, without having to ever buy another product again if they don't want to.

That, to me, is the TOTAL FUCKING OPPOSITE OF CRIPPLEWARE.  Its something we should be praising WoTC to the fucking rafters for. It means they actually got the point this time, and it also must have been a pretty bold and scary move for them, from their point of view: they're betting on actually giving people a game that gives them everything they need for $19.95 (and yes, typing out a URL, which people are suddenly pretending is an immense hurdle because.. what.. we all know 12 year-olds today have no idea how to use the internet and hate to be online??).  Instead of going with the (failed) technique of giving them half-a-game and then demanding they pony up money for the full experience, they're going to give them a full game and then trust that game will be awesome enough the kids will want to pay more for other stuff.  That's really what they always should have been doing, but we should still be impressed because its been so very long since they had really tried doing it this way.   If they only manage to actually promote the starter set in the right ways and to the young-teen demographic, it might even bring a whole new generation into the hobby.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Simlasa;751905Their imagination comes first, the rules interpretation of that comes second.

There's only so far imagination can take you when you're plowing through race, class, skill, spell, power and equipment selection for four or five people in the same session at the same time.

Four or five people who are new to this style of play and are used to getting into a video game RPG quickly and dealing with the complexity and options later.

Four or five people who are rarely going to bother reading any of the material before the first session in this day and age. Certainly not for something they aren't completely sold on yet.

Quote from: Simlasa;751895No, what you say is, "Want to play a game of make-believe?", "What sort of character would you like to play as?"... and then you maybe make suggestions of well known characters in popular media that might fit the game setting. Most of the time there's no need.
The 7yr old I played Mermaid Adventures with got the idea right off. She knew precisely what sort of mermaid she wanted to be. Some pre-gen mermaid wouldn't have cut it.
It's just 'make believe'... that's all RPGs are... with a bit of rules to keep people honest and fair. Everyone has already done it as kids. It's not some lofty tower of secret knowledge or exalted pursuit of art. Approach it as 'play' and not as 'rules' or 'mathwank' and EVERYONE gets it.

You do realize you just described the exact fucking angle this starter set seems to be promoting right? Lets play make believe, here are a few rules to do it. take these stats already done (pregen) give it a name and personality and go! Last time I checked pregens dont come with personalities or anything, and guess what if they do then just change it, its all imagination right?
 when you taught these total non gamers in this way (which is the same way I use by the way) you didnt get glazed looks when they had to look over a feat list to figure out if Frodo had dodge or awarness. Or if Conan should take climb or swim?

Its just in my experience that many people get slightly overwhelmed in chargen in modern systems if they have to chose more than say a name and what they hit stuff with. Not all but many.

I dont even care overmuch one way or the other 5ed wise. I'd like it to succeed so more people can start the hobby with a nice simple in print ruleset. I can also definitely see how it might get fucked up like 4ed.

either way its clear everyone thats lasted this long into the thread has already made up their mind one way or the other.

Quote from: RPGPundit;751655Precisely. Ultimately, what you want is products aimed at DMs that will allow the game to maintain some sanity.  When you orient your line toward players you get the "Book of Amazing +5 Swords" followed up by "The Book of More Amazing +10 Swords".

:rotfl:

Which the DM then decides to include in the game or not.

Quote from: trechriron;751755Really? I think there's some very interesting and well done things going in with with the OSR. I was not speaking as if "people who make OSR or clones are stealing from D&D". I was speaking more of the miserly cheapness I'm picking up on. Pirating stuff is popular, I believe the people whining are also cheap, therefor I make a joke about them pirating stuff because even the OSR prices (many being free...) are too expensive...

For some, the issue has nothing to do with price. If I decide to get a starter set, it will be because I want one, and I will support my FLGS and buy it at retail price because I appreciate them being there to sell it to me.

The decision to buy in the first place will be based on whether I think the makers of the product actually get what rpgs are all about. If I'm not sold on that, then I don't really want the product at any price. Does that clear anything up?

Quote from: Simlasa;751826I'm not hating any of those things... what I'm hating is the idea of buying a 'starter' set where 'starter' doesn't mean 'start playing' it means 'start figuring out what else you need to play'.
I can buy an actual game for $20... I don't need to shell that out for a preview of a coming attraction.
If it turns out to be a complete game there'll be nothing to hate. Simple enough.

Exactly

Quote from: Haffrung;751846Are you going to make me list all the early TSR D&D modules that included pregens in them? And I guess my buddies who let me make up characters for our last AD&D adventure I ran because they don't have time for that stuff these days have missed the entire point of roleplaying games?

Man, I gotta bookmark this thread for the next time the 'your character isn't what's on his sheet' meme erupts out of the grognard jihad.

A module is a complete roleplaying game?

Check your ears, the shit from your brains is starting to leak out of them.

Quote from: CitrusMagic;751855Have you ever tried to teach a non gamer how to roleplay? Like total newbs to the concept of RPGs. Im not asking to be sarcastic or anything its an honest question.
I think we as gamers tend to forget that Chargen is overwhelming to an honest beginer and also meaningless since their choices mean nothing as they have nothing to base it on. However I've found they are much more receptive to actually playing and then become more interested in chargen once they know the game.
Im fully understanding of peoples views on WoTC due to past record hell I agree most of the time but I do hope that the starter set really is just that, a way to start with 5ed. get to know the rules, try it out and go from there.

Chargen only becomes overwhelming once you start requiring 900 pages of rules to pretend to be an elf.

Moldvay basic covered the whole deal in 64 pages for players AND DMs. If you are convinced that you need dozens of mechanical widgets to make your own character then I see the issue.

How many people completely new to rpgs think that they would need over a dozen dial and switch doodads to make their own character if some more experienced player didn't convince them of that?

It is likewise the same with game rules. All that needs to be explained at the start is that you are playing the role of (insert character name), play begins in the town of (town name), what do you do?

That formula still works for new gamers today.

Quote from: RPGPundit;751908That, to me, is the TOTAL FUCKING OPPOSITE OF CRIPPLEWARE.  Its something we should be praising WoTC to the fucking rafters for. It means they actually got the point this time, and it also must have been a pretty bold and scary move for them, from their point of view: they're betting on actually giving people a game that gives them everything they need for $19.95 (and yes, typing out a URL, which people are suddenly pretending is an immense hurdle because.. what.. we all know 12 year-olds today have no idea how to use the internet and hate to be online??).  Instead of going with the (failed) technique of giving them half-a-game and then demanding they pony up money for the full experience, they're going to give them a full game and then trust that game will be awesome enough the kids will want to pay more for other stuff.  That's really what they always should have been doing, but we should still be impressed because its been so very long since they had really tried doing it this way.   If they only manage to actually promote the starter set in the right ways and to the young-teen demographic, it might even bring a whole new generation into the hobby.

RPGPundit

Okay, but why leave what the game needs to have any considerable replay value only online?
Was it a matter of cost? Was it a matter of not having enough time to write character creation rules for newbies? Was it both? What do you think about exactly this question that many have reasonably asked so far?

It was a combination of reasons, which included maximizing the affordability of the starter set, a conscious choice of making the starter set in-the-box something that would be as straightforward as possible for total newbies to just pick up and play, and also because the FREE online content is not just some kind of afterthought but will be part of the main strategy for D&D overall.

You guys may want to note what Wolfgang Bauer wrote in the interview he gave to the Escapist: the Tyranny of Dragons adventures can be playable using only the Starter Set.