Perhaps it is that we hope against hope that if there is enough outrage they'll rethink repeating a bad decision that hurts the entire hobby.

Even mmorpgs know that making your own character is one of the most awesome things about gaming and lead with it.  Yes they pretty much keep it to pick a name, pick a class, pick a race.  Huh, reminds me of Dungeons & Dragons, the most popular rpg on the planet, funny that.

Quote from: Benoist;751840Which happens to completely miss the fucking point of a role playing game and turns it from a game of your imagination into a consumerist item with limited replay value. From an open model into a closed one. And in case you're a bit thick too, the main point here is not the limited replay value in and of itself; it's the actual missing of the entire fucking point of role playing games in empowering their users in the first place. So ... fail. Again.

Thank you.

Are you going to make me list all the early TSR D&D modules that included pregens in them? And I guess my buddies who let me make up characters for our last AD&D adventure I ran because they don't have time for that stuff these days have missed the entire point of roleplaying games?

Man, I gotta bookmark this thread for the next time the 'your character isn't what's on his sheet' meme erupts out of the grognard jihad.

Quote from: Simlasa;751838So what you're saying is there's STILL no rules for character generation in the box? Yeah, gimped. Purposefully kept short of being a fully playable game (because fully playable RPGs include chargen).
It's a fucking $20 appetizer.

To be cleqar and slightly less frantic than some (funny though :') )

You do not need a charcter generation system to start playing a game.

As have been noted you can sit down take a pregen and play.
If this is your first ever game, ie you are a starter, then this is probably a good idea.
Just like when you play Arkham Horror you don't need to make up your own character or when you play Talisman you accept one of the premade characters.
So far so good right?

Now if there was no way for you to make new characters without spending 50 bucks then that might be "crippleware" because making up your own PCs is definitely part of the whole RPG thing. But if the company give you access to a free resource to enable you to add that to your game to keep on playing with the rules in that box set but with your own characters (which cost you nothign and are fully compatible with the future game line as it develops) then I can't see it as crippleware.

Like I stated earlier I would have put the character book in the box and charged 10 bucks more and also sold the character book stand alone for 10 bucks but WotC are giving it away for free instead. There are lots of reasons they might be doing this -
i) The character book would cost money to edit etc into a single book format - just taking the character section of the PHB avoids that - no extra costs
ii) The fans would cry foul if the box set contained a chunk of stuff that was just repeated in the PHB because they would decry that they were paying for stuff twice
iii) For new players, 9 or 10 years old, who have no experience of RPGs just taking a premade character and getting started might very well be the best option as an introduction to play. I suspect the adventure will feel like a "choose your own adventure book" as well to a degree because you want the kids to open the box, decide who is DM, divy out the characters and then start playing and not have the DM kid have to take away a 64 page book and read through it at length interpret a load of rules and then reconvene all his mates for a game.
iv) The character section is probably going to be c. 50 pages (15% of the PHB). Adding that to a box set with c 120 pages of stuff increases weight and shipping by a hefty % so then they have to charge more even if they were going to give that stuff away for free anyway. Someone at WotC worked out that a $20 entry point was where they wanted to be to get the casual purchase to be.

So in short to the grognards... this isn't aimed at you. It's a starter set. Before you judge put yourself in the shoes of a 10 year old who's only exposure to RPGs is killing folk in Rennaisance Italy or shooting Russian separatists from a long way away on his console.

Quote from: David Johansen;751844Perhaps it is that we hope against hope that if there is enough outrage they'll rethink repeating a bad decision that hurts the entire hobby.

Even mmorpgs know that making your own character is one of the most awesome things about gaming and lead with it.  Yes they pretty much keep it to pick a name, pick a class, pick a race.  Huh, reminds me of Dungeons & Dragons, the most popular rpg on the planet, funny that.

Now you're just being purposely obtuse.

As far as I can tell the Starter set is for one of 2 groups.

A) People who have never played an rpg before, had no idea dice came in shapes other than a cube, complete newbs.    

B) People who have some experience with rpgs and want to try out the 5th edition rules, in a simple affordable way. Everything you need to play is there, its a full game just with pregens.  Its a full game, like any other game you might buy: Munchkin, Heroquest, Decent you get the idea. Also there's some free PDF content.Its not crippleware because its the rules, same ones in the PHB and you will need to know those to play.

People In group A in my experience do not want complication. Nothing glazes over a persons eyes like too many options that mean nothing because they have no idea how to play. The best way to learn is by doing, not by having someone tell you how to make a PC, which is what has happened almost every time I've played with brand new people trying Chargen in a complicated system like Pathfinder.

People in group B can read the basic rules, maybe run the adventure once with pregens, and then do one of 2 things: Download the PDF for Chargen or figure it out on their own using basic rpg know how and also come up with their own content. You know like every single person that has ever played a basic form of DnD usually ends up doing. You know the reasons DnD like B/X is praised, for its simple structure from which to hang your own house rules and ideas off of. Yeah that. If you cant figure out one of those 2 things then maybe you belong in group A.

Either way the Starter set seems to fit what you need, and all for $20.

Quote from: Haffrung;751846Are you going to make me list all the early TSR D&D modules that included pregens in them? And I guess my buddies who let me make up characters for our last AD&D adventure I ran because they don't have time for that stuff these days have missed the entire point of roleplaying games?

OK. This is SUCH a moronic statement that just comes up to muddy the waters when the matter of fact is that the OD&D set of 1974, the Holmes set of 1977, the AD&D PH of 1979, the Moldvay-Cook set of 1981, and the Mentzer set of 1983 each came up with character gen that I will just ask you to go fuck yourself. Fuck you and your ignoramus bullshit pretending to know what it is you are talking about when you in fact have no fucking clue or pretend to have no fucking clue (intimating if true that you consider the people you are talking to to be fucking morons in the first place) in order to make up LIES out of thin air. Fuck that partisan "I'll just support Next because FACTION" bullshit.

I don't have a problem with WotC. Or Next. I want them to succeed. I have a big problem with fucking assholes such as yourself who transform every criticism of a game system you have already given your heart and soul to as being problems themselves. You are doing exactly what the hardcore 4e gamers were doing at the time it came out, and it is absolutely AWFUL in terms of actually getting people to sympathize for your standpoint. It just makes you look like a moron, a troll, a douchebag, and ends up unselling people on your game of choice who would have otherwise considered playing it. YOU are the problem here, buddy. Go fuck yourself!

NOBODY here has a problem with pregens, which INDEED have been a part of the game (not in boxed sets, but in modules) from close to day one. The ACTUAL point is that you don't have to do one or the other. You can do both, and there is no sane reason to not include character gen in an introduction set to the world's premier role playing game, unless of course you understand fuck all about role playing games in the first place.

As in: Which happens to completely miss the fucking point of a role playing game and turns it from a game of your imagination into a consumerist item with limited replay value. From an open model into a closed one. And in case you're a bit thick too, the main point here is not the limited replay value in and of itself; it's the actual missing of the entire fucking point of role playing games in empowering their users in the first place. So ... fail. Again.

That's the point. Thanks again. :hatsoff:

Quote from: CitrusMagic;751849As far as I can tell the Starter set is for one of 2 groups.

A) People who have never played an rpg before, had no idea dice came in shapes other than a cube, complete newbs.    

B) People who have some experience with rpgs and want to try out the 5th edition rules, in a simple affordable way. Everything you need to play is there, its a full game just with pregens.  Its a full game, like any other game you might buy: Munchkin, Heroquest, Decent you get the idea. Also there's some free PDF content.Its not crippleware because its the rules, same ones in the PHB and you will need to know those to play.

People In group A in my experience do not want complication. Nothing glazes over a persons eyes like too many options that mean nothing because they have no idea how to play. The best way to learn is by doing, not by having someone tell you how to make a PC, which is what has happened almost every time I've played with brand new people trying Chargen in a complicated system like Pathfinder.

People in group B can read the basic rules, maybe run the adventure once with pregens, and then do one of 2 things: Download the PDF for Chargen or figure it out on their own using basic rpg know how and also come up with their own content. You know like every single person that has ever played a basic form of DnD usually ends up doing. You know the reasons DnD like B/X is praised, for its simple structure from which to hang your own house rules and ideas off of. Yeah that. If you cant figure out one of those 2 things then maybe you belong in group A.

Either way the Starter set seems to fit what you need, and all for $20.

Exactly

Quote from: jibbajibba;751847...because making up your own PCs is definitely part of the whole RPG thing.

So it follows that a boxed set without chargen IS NOT A WHOLE RPG... right?

Doesn't matter if you can find it online, in a shop, tatooed on the head of a blind prophet... it's not in the box. The box is not complete. That was done on purpose... for some reason that smells more of corporate scheming more than it does concern over confused players.
And no, pre-gens are not in of themselves a bad thing... keep those in the box too.

Quote from: Simlasa;751853So it follows that a boxed set without chargen IS NOT A WHOLE RPG... right?

Doesn't matter if you can find it online, in a shop, tatooed on the head of a blind prophet... it's not in the box. The box is not complete. That was done on purpose... for some reason that smells more of corporate scheming more than it does concern over confused players.

Okay a few points again
i) its not a complete game its a starter set
ii) almost by definition the complete game can never be in a box set because it will include a myriadd of add ons and supplements - if the starter set had a book with 4 Classes but only humans would it be complete?

You can play an infinite number of games with a pregenerated PC. Infinite.

Folk have laid out a number of possible reasons why not starting with Char gen might be a reasonable idea for newbies.

Quote from: Simlasa;751853So it follows that a boxed set without chargen IS NOT A WHOLE RPG... right?

Doesn't matter if you can find it online, in a shop, tatooed on the head of a blind prophet... it's not in the box. The box is not complete. That was done on purpose... for some reason that smells more of corporate scheming more than it does concern over confused players.

Have you ever tried to teach a non gamer how to roleplay? Like total newbs to the concept of RPGs. Im not asking to be sarcastic or anything its an honest question.
I think we as gamers tend to forget that Chargen is overwhelming to an honest beginer and also meaningless since their choices mean nothing as they have nothing to base it on. However I've found they are much more receptive to actually playing and then become more interested in chargen once they know the game.
Im fully understanding of peoples views on WoTC due to past record hell I agree most of the time but I do hope that the starter set really is just that, a way to start with 5ed. get to know the rules, try it out and go from there.

Maybe some parallels

i) A mavel superheroes game with every single Marvel superhero ever from Spiderman to Cypher. But no rules for making up your own heroes. The tag line beng you can play any hero in the marvel universe... an rpg or not an rpg?

ii) You download a game for your phone some sort of roleplay thing it's great fun but you get bored with playing Greg the dwarf or the other 5 basic characters after a while. The company lets you download an add on that allows you to create any character you like. The download is free.  Crippleware?

iii) You use an art editing suite on your PC for creating maps. It's great but you need some custom brushes for doing mountains. You find out that the company has a downloadable patch that allows you to custom build your own brushes which is usually part of the expensive "professional edition". The patch is free. Are you being ripped off?

Quote from: Benoist;751840completely miss the fucking point of a role playing game and turns it from a game of your imagination

Everyone is so angry!

Rolling dice, picking a few feats and writing it on a piece of paper isn't the end all be all of creating a character. Investing a pregen with a unique personality and history all it's own through play can be just as meaningful and fun as coming up with one from scratch.

Quote from: Raven;751857Everyone is so angry!

To be clear, I am NOT angry at the game. I'll still pick up the three core books (the starter box is out the window, because it's obvious crap), judge for myself, play a few games, and so on. Just like I did with 3e (which I loved) and 4e (which I didn't like).

What really annoys me is those posters who keep taking the counter-point because [NEXT]. As in "I'm already sold to Next, I want it to succeed, so every criticism needs to be squashed before it hatches out."

Well news flash, people: I TOO would like Next to succeed. And me saying stuff like "The starter set is actually crippleware that does not sell the actual core value of role playing games" IS criticism that is aimed at raising awareness about what is so fucking brain dead wrong about this shit, and how it could be improved.

Without guys like me, you would NOT have had Next in the first place, because everyone would be singing kumbaya about 4e still. So FUCK YOU guys. My criticism is ACTUAL criticism, as in, "that's a flaw, right there". After, you guys are all welcome to turn it into some spite war of shit about those mythical "grogtards" you hate so much, but I sure as hell hope that other people are looking, people with actual brains, preferably, people who might have a clue as to what's so fucking wrong here.

Quote from: Benoist;751859To be clear, I am NOT angry at the game. I'll still pick up the three core books (the starter box is out the window, because it's obvious crap), judge for myself, play a few games, and so on. Just like I did with 3e (which I loved) and 4e (which I didn't like).

What really annoys me is those posters who keep taking the counter-point because [NEXT]. As in "I'm already sold to Next, I want it to succeed, so every criticism needs to be squashed before it hatches out."

Well news flash, people: I TOO would like Next to succeed. And me saying stuff like "The starter set is actually crippleware that does not sell the actual core value of role playing games" IS criticism that is aimed at raising awareness about what is so fucking brain dead wrong about this shit, and how it could be improved.

Without guys like me, you would NOT have had Next in the first place, because everyone would be singing kumbaya about 4e still. So FUCK YOU guys. My criticism is ACTUAL criticism, as in, "that's a flaw, right there". After, you guys are all welcome to turn it into some spite war of shit, but I sure as hell hope that other people are looking, who might have a clue as to what's so fucking wrong here.

Are you sure you aren't angry? That sounded angry. Especially the grown up sweary words in capitals.

Quote from: Benoist;751859So FUCK YOU guys.

Wow. Ok then.