Quote from: trechriron;751755Let me be more clear. I feel like the hard core "D&D for life" grognard crowd tends to prefer older editions of D&D. There's some nostalgia here sometimes tinged with maybe some near-religious devotion. Which is cool. I'm a nerd after all so I can hardly criticize. Enthusiasm is the lifeblood of a hobby. This crowd also seems to appreciate low cost or free. They want some mileage out of a gaming product. The tight budgets are painted all over the membership cards.

I feel the jabs at the D&D 5e box set and approach are ignorant. You can buy a very inexpensive box set, download a free PDF, and play D&D. A complete game now for $12. Even better, you can use the thing as a true recruiting tool setting up DMs with groups of new players. It's a savvy approach and all the lamenting seems to be missing that point. It's very "but what about MY box set?". I'm listening to people complain that WOTC is not going to let them buy in to a whole game for $12 and walk away (which they could do actually). I keep hearing things like "why is this so hard?" "WOTC fails again..." which really chaps my ass. They haven't failed. If they are going to, we'll have to wait for several more months (if not the rest of the year) to determine that.

Where D&D goes, the hobby (and industry) follows. 1980 is behind us. The world has changed and will continue to do so. It's obvious WOTC has figured that out and is trying a new approach with a starter box set (and maybe even a Basic vs. Advanced game...) that capitalizes on current realities. In addition, the current reality is that WOTC needs to regularly sell stuff to stay in business. I cannot believe people with the tenure in this hobby that grognards have don't see that. It's like asking your local grocer if you can get a $12 vegetables for life card and then later (after he stupidly agrees) being surprised the store is closed. I don't believe the basic box set is targeted at grognards anymore because grognards are not a viable market (certainly not to the extent WOTC needs to remain solvent). The hobby can succeed without grognards.

It's likely going to HAVE to. (especially now with the prevailing attitude of the old forum-addled peeps all throwing up their arms in disgust) In many ways that's too bad. There's a lot of brain trust in the veterans. It would be a shame to see the "new" D&D move on without some of their influence on the new comers.

Don't make the mistake of believing the grognards who post on RPG forums are representative of the lapsed and long-time D&D players who WotC are hoping to bring back into the fold. Pissing and moaning about WotC and everything official D&D since 1986 is a hobby unto itself for a lot of forum grogs. The guys I know in the real world who have played D&D on an off for 35 years don't post on forums, have no idea what the OSR is, have no feelings about WotC one way or another, and are excited about 5E. The nerdfury of a couple dozen forum grogs around here won't mean any more to the ultimate success or failure of Next than the nerd fury of the couple dozen 4E system wonks who dominate the RPGnet forums.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;751782But heck, I'm not that invested in this starter anyway, and this whole debate feels like a bit of a sideshow. The final rules are what will save or sink WotC D&D.

Pretty much. I can't for the life of figure out why so many people who obviously want WotC to fail with Next are shedding so many crocodile tears over their 'disappointment' with the Starter Set.

It's not just here, but on RPGNet too (although that's an entirely different group of people who hate WotC for entirely different reasons). Why do people who are clearly emotionally invested in the prospect of WotC failing with Next pretend to have even the barest shred of objective concern about the game's success? Something about D&D seems to tap into an abyss if unreason. I don't see it in any other hobby (though granted, D&D is by far the geekiest of my interests, so maybe this kind of passive-aggressive obsession is not all that peculiar among geeks). A sociologist could have a field day with D&D online edition wars.

Quote from: trechriron;751755The hobby can succeed without grognards.

Based on my being on various grogesque forums for several years and hearing the term "nephew," "niece," and "cousins" thrown around much more often  than "my kids," "little hellions," and "embiggened poo machines" I think the hobby is a bit hindered by the forums bait grognards. Procreation and growing the hobby go hand in hand if you know what I mean.  This is not the case for all grognards though!

Quote from: Haffrung;751813Pretty much. I can't for the life of figure out why so many people who obviously want WotC to fail with Next are shedding so many crocodile tears over their 'disappointment' with the Starter Set.

So no one here has laid out any valid concerns? They all just want 5e to fail miserably? They have some reservations after plunking down hard-earned cash for previous shitty starter sets and it's just crocodile tears?

Quote from: Endless Flight;751818So no one here has laid out any valid concerns? They all just want 5e to fail miserably? They have some reservations after plunking down hard-earned cash for previous shitty starter sets and it's just crocodile tears?

Sure there are valid concerns. But let's not pretend there aren't people on the forums who desperately want Next to fail out of resentment of WotC or a need to validate their tribe/prefered edition. The people who hate that 4e was published, the people hate that it isn't published anymore, and the people who hate everyone who 'stole' the game from Gygax. It's a veritable rogue's gallery of haters.

Quote from: GameDaddy;751776...and just to note here. Pathfinder was originally released as a free PDF... The entire game. Then they sold a real dead tree copy.

So when folks here talk about ...how could the grogs let Wotc.... .

Wotc will do what WOTC does. Doesn't really have much to do with us. We will call them on it though, when they release a starter set, that is not a starter.

Paizo = Full FREE Game ...then buy what you want!
WOTC  = Gimped Starter set, then pay $$$ for the full game.

Yes, we'll call them on that. every. time. because the new players and GMs deserve better!!!

And that's the truth.

That the focus group got frustrated with character generation speaks poorly for the rules don't you think?

Quote from: Haffrung;751821It's a veritable rogue's gallery of haters.

I'm not hating any of those things... what I'm hating is the idea of buying a 'starter' set where 'starter' doesn't mean 'start playing' it means 'start figuring out what else you need to play'.
I can buy an actual game for $20... I don't need to shell that out for a preview of a coming attraction.
If it turns out to be a complete game there'll be nothing to hate. Simple enough.

Quote from: David Johansen;751825That the focus group got frustrated with character generation speaks poorly for the rules don't you think?

It does make you wonder. They obviously couldn't compact a simplified version of character creation inside a 32 page booklet. Does this mean that space is going to be taken by one of those poorly written choose-your-own adventures?

If I have to play a d20 system* (and I do), I'd kinda rather do Pathfinder based on this news about the D&D Starter Set.

*= the game mechanic, not the copyright.

Quote from: Mistwell;751785That's what happens when you leach from the industry leader under their licensing system.

Is that what Paizo did?  I thought Paizo stepped into the massive vacuum left by WotC as they willingly and by design abandoned the majority of their fans and their business partners leaving behind a publishing house they just told to go fuck off with nothing to publish besides an open system that WotC thought no one else would use?

The OGL was always holding the tiger by the tail, WotC let go.  All the 4e butthurt in the world isn't going to put that on Paizo.

Quote from: David Johansen;751825That the focus group got frustrated with character generation speaks poorly for the rules don't you think?

Uh, they didn't. That's just speculative musing by Robiswrong about why pregens might be the default mode of play for newbies using the Starter Set.

Keep in mind the goal expressed by the designers is for newbies to able to sit down and start playing within 15 minutes.

I see how this works now.

Just come in and post the same misleading ignorant bullshit over and over and hopefully the thread dies with your diarrhea clogging up the end of it.

OK.

I can do that too. Let me restate with some fire on the words. Hopefully the burning sensation in the pucker hole will have a cognitive enhancing effect to the "repeat the same shit" crowd.

The Starter Box Set is a tool geared towards DMs with 5 PRE GENERATED CHARACTERS that gives the DM everything they need to setup and play. Immediately. BAM. As in YOU OPEN THE FUCKING BOX, HAND OUT CHARACTERS, AND PLAY. THE. FUCKING. GAME. How is that gimped? Is the XBox gimped because it only has one controller and one game? Is Munchkin gimped because the box set has only 100 cards? Is marbles crippled because the nice lady at the toy store didn't sell you ALL THE MARBLES. EVAR?!?!?! How many fucking ways can we possibly illustrate it so you get it? Do I have to break out Visio and diagram this shit?

In addition, you can download a free PDF that includes character generation so you can make more characters. Or, if you're so inclined, share with your new players and have them make new characters. Or print it out, and wrap a fucking {COLOR OF YOUR CHOICE} RIBBBON around the sacred holy missing parchments and place them ever so gently into the symbolic icon of your CHILDHOOD FUCKING FANTASIES where you can now store said adequately-weighted placeholder for your fragile ego in a glass case for all to look upon and be AMAZED!  "Look!! The sacred box is NOW COMPLETE!! Hallowed be thy contents!!!"

If I don't come in every 3 pages or so and decry the NEXTantrums, kittens somewhere in the world die a horrible fiery death. I'm certain of it.

Quote from: trechriron;751836I can do that too...(snip)

So what you're saying is there's STILL no rules for character generation in the box? Yeah, gimped. Purposefully kept short of being a fully playable game (because fully playable RPGs include chargen).
It's a fucking $20 appetizer.

Quote from: trechriron;751836The Starter Box Set is a tool geared towards DMs with 5 PRE GENERATED CHARACTERS that gives the DM everything they need to setup and play. Immediately. BAM. As in YOU OPEN THE FUCKING BOX, HAND OUT CHARACTERS, AND PLAY. THE. FUCKING. GAME

Which happens to completely miss the fucking point of a role playing game and turns it from a game of your imagination into a consumerist item with limited replay value. From an open model into a closed one. And in case you're a bit thick too, the main point here is not the limited replay value in and of itself; it's the actual missing of the entire fucking point of role playing games in empowering their users in the first place. So ... fail. Again.

Thank you.