I started roleplaying back in 1978 with nothing more than a copy of Judges Guild's Ready Ref Sheets, a set of dice, and third hand advice on what role playing was. Oh and the unbounded enthusiasm of youth. I had a hoot.

Looks to me that the starter set (plus the ubiquity of the Internet) will do just fine for its purpose.

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;751926Just to sprinkle a little oil in the fire:

Just rename the box Dragonlance Starter Set, a box without character creation but pregens (Tanis, Raistlin, the whole bunch).
Now rename the Tyranny of Dragons series to Dragons of Despair, Dragons of Hope, ...

Of course the adventures would be playable with the Starter Set alone.

Try to view the criticism from that angle.

Epic post. Troll Pundit by name dropping Dragonlance.

Sweet!

The 4e red box came with instructions for downloading a free adventure pdf. Maybe they used the results from that and decided that enough people who bought the red box also downloaded the pdf and figured the gimmick was worth trying again.

Quote from: Benoist;751859Without guys like me, you would NOT have had Next in the first place, because everyone would be singing kumbaya about 4e still.

Maybe that's their problem - you/everyone else that thought 4E was a shitty RPG were vocal enough to get it cancelled in record time.

I'm reasonably sure 4e failed because it was a poor replacement for D&D, not because some guys were loud about it on the internet.

Yeah, but the whiners need to blame someone...

Quote from: kythri;752215Yeah, but the whiners need to blame someone...

and the other whiners need to take credit :-P

Quote from: RPGPundit;751919It was a combination of reasons, which included maximizing the affordability of the starter set, a conscious choice of making the starter set in-the-box something that would be as straightforward as possible for total newbies to just pick up and play, and also because the FREE online content is not just some kind of afterthought but will be part of the main strategy for D&D overall.

I don't disagree with you Pundit in general but I think maybe, just maybe (and only time will tell which of us is righter) that they might be throwing away dollars to save pennies: the starter set with those chargen rules included put in a retail space like Target or Wal-Mart or even Toys-R-Us would, to my mind, have been ideal.

Now if better brains than yours or mine looked at that and said "That's not a viable area for us to try and compete for shelf space in," well, obviously what I said doesn't apply, I just wonder (and none of us will ever know short of getting an NDA'd job at WotC/Hasbro marketing) if they looked at that angle.

My concern over the way the Starter Set is being offered comes from there, not from a desire to see WotC stumble and fall (quite the opposite, and I'll say why momentarily), but from a place where I'm worried that this wasn't in fact a missed opportunity.  Now they may still target those retail spaces!  They may put the product there, it is, of course, advertised as a game-in-a-box, ready to play thing, and it is.  Something in the box that says "Hey if you want to make your own characters and have your own adventures, go here...www.wizards.com/dnd/etcetera"  just might work.  Up to level 5 could be endless hours of gaming for some folks without ever thinking about "Oh well I want a new character" etc.

And the point, regarding me and WotC and why I don't want to see them fall is they complete 180' they did to get to where they are now: all old editions re-released.  PDFs re-released.  4e defenestrated, and essentially what amounts to 5e: The Apology Edition being released, something stripped utterly of 4e's ... 4e-ness, and instead a game that looks a lot like RC + Moldvay Basic + some 3e-stuff (inverted armor classes, feats - although one can argue I think that feats have always been with D&D and the term itself and hard codification and feat trees came with 3e).

So...yeah.

I am sure Hasbro's CEO wept every night as he read oldschool blogs. He was probably literally shaking from anger over being misunderstood by grognards.

Quote from: rincewind1;752222i am sure hasbro's ceo wept every night as he read oldschool blogs. He was probably literally shaking from anger over being misunderstood by grognards.

trigger warning: Gygax

my preferred pronouns are: Ken/kin/kender.  Respect them.  It's not my job to educate you, cisgrog!

Quote from: thedungeondelver;752223trigger warning: Gygax

my preferred pronouns are: Ken/kin/kender.  Respect them.  It's not my job to educate you, cisgrog!

After seeing "transnigger", this isn't even funny anymore .

WotC obviously wants the Grognard's money back, and it's cool - I like the old D&D much more than I like 4e. But it wasn't the quality of old D&D that brought 4e down, it was the lack of qualities in 4e.

To say that RPGsite, K&K or Dragonsfoot brought down 4e is foolish as hell, because people who are the target, who are interested in 4e don't go to those places, so they'll be not persuaded by them to stop buying 4e.

Quote from: Rincewind1;752224After seeing "transnigger", this isn't even funny anymore .

WotC obviously wants the Grognard's money back, and it's cool - I like the old D&D much more than I like 4e. But it wasn't the quality of old D&D that brought 4e down, it was the lack of qualities in 4e.

To say that RPGsite, K&K or Dragonsfoot brought down 4e is foolish as hell, because people who are the target, who are interested in 4e don't go to those places, so they'll be not persuaded by them to stop buying 4e.

Yeah, in spite of everything (and things I've said) I am inclined to agree.  Edsel flopping has little to do with the sex appeal of a deSoto.

cisgrog

I love it.  And I'm stealing it :-)

Quote from: Raven;752212I'm reasonably sure 4e failed because it was a poor replacement for D&D, not because some guys were loud about it on the internet.

+1

If people bought it and said, "wow, this is good D&D," it would now be near the end of its cycle instead of already dead and buried.

4e is a really cool game that has almost nothing to do with D&D.

BTW, did everyone suddenly forget how to make a character for D&D?  The six ability scores, race, class, armor, weapons, hit points, skills/spells/other advantages, alignment, and a name.  Even if people forget that recipe, I'm sure it will be given passing mention in the starter box.  Plus, the pre-generated PCs are all the guidance one needs - unless you're a total noob, in which case, just use the pre-gens!

I'm glad there's a cool introductory adventure included.  That's the tricky part.  Generating a character is easy.  

VS