More on sources of this info:

Quote from: Thaumaturge;6304572Well, since I'm the one quoted, without attribution, on RPG Pundit, here, I figured I'd update the first post with more on where the information came from. I should have done this originally.

I grabbed BoardGameGeek's twitter feed. He attended ACD Distribution's 2014 Gamesday.

I wasn't there, but those are my sources.

Thaumaturge.

Quote from: Morrus;6304573I think lots of people grabbed BGG's twitter feed - I know I did, and Jon Bolding at The Escapist did, too.  It's a popular feed!  That aside, Mearls confirmed it too, so there's no doubt as to its veracity.

Quote from: Warthur;751706So, calling it now: there's going to be a complete Basic D&D game, either something that's 100% free to download or its own boxed set/book, which expands on the Starter Set without getting as complex as the Big Three books (whilst maintaining compatibility with them).

A complete Basic D&D box/book would be a good option. A free PDF of just PC Creation is a bad option (and something that was also possible under 3e and it didn't make that edition's Starter Set any less poor).

Quote from: thedungeondelver;751719The tell, as to where he's coming from in his frothing rage, is in the "stolen OSR games" comment.

Really? I think there's some very interesting and well done things going in with with the OSR. I was not speaking as if "people who make OSR or clones are stealing from D&D". I was speaking more of the miserly cheapness I'm picking up on. Pirating stuff is popular, I believe the people whining are also cheap, therefor I make a joke about them pirating stuff because even the OSR prices (many being free...) are too expensive...

Let me be more clear. I feel like the hard core "D&D for life" grognard crowd tends to prefer older editions of D&D. There's some nostalgia here sometimes tinged with maybe some near-religious devotion. Which is cool. I'm a nerd after all so I can hardly criticize. Enthusiasm is the lifeblood of a hobby. This crowd also seems to appreciate low cost or free. They want some mileage out of a gaming product. The tight budgets are painted all over the membership cards.

I feel the jabs at the D&D 5e box set and approach are ignorant. You can buy a very inexpensive box set, download a free PDF, and play D&D. A complete game now for $12. Even better, you can use the thing as a true recruiting tool setting up DMs with groups of new players. It's a savvy approach and all the lamenting seems to be missing that point. It's very "but what about MY box set?". I'm listening to people complain that WOTC is not going to let them buy in to a whole game for $12 and walk away (which they could do actually). I keep hearing things like "why is this so hard?" "WOTC fails again..." which really chaps my ass. They haven't failed. If they are going to, we'll have to wait for several more months (if not the rest of the year) to determine that.

Where D&D goes, the hobby (and industry) follows. 1980 is behind us. The world has changed and will continue to do so. It's obvious WOTC has figured that out and is trying a new approach with a starter box set (and maybe even a Basic vs. Advanced game...) that capitalizes on current realities. In addition, the current reality is that WOTC needs to regularly sell stuff to stay in business. I cannot believe people with the tenure in this hobby that grognards have don't see that. It's like asking your local grocer if you can get a $12 vegetables for life card and then later (after he stupidly agrees) being surprised the store is closed. I don't believe the basic box set is targeted at grognards anymore because grognards are not a viable market (certainly not to the extent WOTC needs to remain solvent). The hobby can succeed without grognards.

It's likely going to HAVE to. (especially now with the prevailing attitude of the old forum-addled peeps all throwing up their arms in disgust) In many ways that's too bad. There's a lot of brain trust in the veterans. It would be a shame to see the "new" D&D move on without some of their influence on the new comers.

Quote from: trechriron;751755Where D&D goes, the hobby (and industry) follows.

The OGL ensured that wouldn't be the case any longer. Pathfinder is now the kind of the hill. The reason for some of the angst here is that Paizo released an excellent beginner box and people want Wizards to take a cue from that and create a comparable product. They do not see one here, at least from what everyone's been told.

Who knows. It may succeed, it may not. Let's hope it does. There's definitely less room for error now than there was 15 years ago.

Quote from: trechriron;751755I feel the jabs at the D&D 5e box set and approach are ignorant. You can buy a very inexpensive box set, download a free PDF, and play D&D. A complete game now for $12.

How is that different from the crippleware D&D3e Starter Box and the SRD? Or the crippleware D&D4e Starter Box and DDI (+$10)? And how does it stack up to Pathfinder's full Beginner Box and the OGL?

What WotC are doing here is from the looks of it exactly the same as what they have done before. The only noteworthy thing is that they have valued an extra $10 against having a complete Starter Box. You can judge that appropriate if you want (as you would have done with 3e or 4e) but I don't agree for the many reasons that have been hashed over in detail already.

Make the entry point into the RPG complete and replayable for a decent length of time, especially if its just a matter of $10. Over time, the immediate return you get from impulse buys and by rushing people to buy your $150 Core Set sooner is unlikely to beat the overall return of genuinely hooking players by making that first experience as best as it possibly can and encouraging experienced RPGers to gift that entry point to potential customers.

The first hit is cheap/free [STARTER SET! GOING CHEAP! 15%!!]. You go to the dealers house to pick it up.

You have to use his gear/kit/tools to enable the hit[DOWNLOAD THE CHARACTER GENERATION/15% of the PHB].

You then get in to more and more and more of this stuff[BUY ALL THE STUFF!! SUBSCRIBE! CONSUME!].

Marketing or drug dealers? You decide... When hobby meets business and concessions are made.

Quote from: Skywalker;751767How is that different from the crippleware D&D3e Starter Box and the SRD?

The SRD is not reader friendly or artfully presented like I presume this booklet/pdf will be?

Quote from: Skywalker;751767Or the crippleware D&D4e Starter Box and DDI (+$10)?

The description of this box thus far looks much better than the shit 4e one which was shit for a whole host of reasons other than the character gen? The booklet/pdf is free, unlike DDI?

Quote from: Skywalker;751767And how does it stack up to Pathfinder's full Beginner Box and the OGL?

It's more affordable and accessible, which does count for something, right?

Quote from: Skywalker;751767... and encouraging experienced RPGers to gift that entry point to potential customers.

I don't know if as many "experienced RPGers" are going to care in the real world as you are suggesting. If this really is the arrangement (very affordable 20$-or-less box that starts as fast as World of Warcraft / Diablo and has free and easily accessible/printable content that makes it deeper than those two highly addictive titles) it sound perfectly reasonable to me and countless others I'm sure.

...and just to note here. Pathfinder was originally released as a free PDF... The entire game. Then they sold a real dead tree copy.

So when folks here talk about ...how could the grogs let Wotc.... .

Wotc will do what WOTC does. Doesn't really have much to do with us. We will call them on it though, when they release a starter set, that is not a starter.

Paizo = Full FREE Game ...then buy what you want!
WOTC  = Gimped Starter set, then pay $$$ for the full game.

Yes, we'll call them on that. every. time. because the new players and GMs deserve better!!!

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;751774The description of this box thus far looks much better than the shit 4e one which was shit for a whole host of reasons other than the character gen?

Where's the pawns and maps? Even if they don't use 5' movement like 3e/4e, a nice map and pawns to look at and fiddle with would be cool.

I mean, at least the shit 4e box had those.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;751774The SRD is not reader friendly or artfully presented like I presume this booklet/pdf will be?

So, the point of distinction is that this time it has layout?

Does the SRD get any bonus points for being 100% of the rules, not just 15%?

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;751774The description of this box thus far looks much better than the shit 4e one which was shit for a whole host of reasons other than the character gen?

So, you revert to a subjective opinion to avoid the arguing the point?

But yes, it did cost $10, though you got a whole lot more than 15% of the PHB.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;751774It's more affordable and accessible, which does count for something, right?

Yes, as noted in my post. You can value that difference how you like.

TBH I am cool that people may be happy with the 5e approach. What I don't understand is how some of these people are trying to pretend that this approach is "in every respect better" than previous approaches.

What we are getting here is simply the same as before. If you were cool with what came before, then you will be cool with this too. If you weren't, then surely its understandable to be non-plussed by what you are seeing.

Quote from: Endless Flight;751777Where's the pawns and maps? Even if they don't use 5' movement like 3e/4e, a nice map and pawns to look at and fiddle with would be cool.

I mean, at least the shit 4e box had those.

But the holy Mentzer box didn't, right? (I'll admit I could be wrong)

This feels like moving the goalposts here.

But heck, I'm not that invested in this starter anyway, and this whole debate feels like a bit of a sideshow. The final rules are what will save or sink WotC D&D.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;751782But the holy Mentzer box didn't, right? (I'll admit I could be wrong)

This feels like moving the goalposts here.

But heck, I'm not that invested in this starter anyway, and this whole debate feels like a bit of a sideshow. The final rules are what will save or sink WotC D&D.

You are correct, the Mentzer box didn't.

I'm not really shifting the goalposts.

The 4e box was $20 and included tokens and two double sided maps, if my memory serves me correctly. The 5e box is also $20 but has no maps or tokens. Shouldn't there be a price difference or is that just inflation?

I'm not really keen on tactical combat driven by 5' squares on maps, but I like seeing those kinds of goodies in boxes anyway, just for the visual aid, if nothing else.

Quote from: RPGPundit;751655Precisely. Ultimately, what you want is products aimed at DMs that will allow the game to maintain some sanity.  When you orient your line toward players you get the "Book of Amazing +5 Swords" followed up by "The Book of More Amazing +10 Swords".

I really did LOL at that.

Quote from: GameDaddy;751776...and just to note here. Pathfinder was originally released as a free PDF... The entire game. Then they sold a real dead tree copy.

So when folks here talk about ...how could the grogs let Wotc.... .

Wotc will do what WOTC does. Doesn't really have much to do with us. We will call them on it though, when they release a starter set, that is not a starter.

Paizo = Full FREE Game ...then buy what you want!
WOTC  = Gimped Starter set, then pay $$$ for the full game.

Yes, we'll call them on that. every. time. because the new players and GMs deserve better!!!

And we will continue to call you on that.  Every. Time.  Because it's not gimped, and when pressed for how it is gimped we get incredibly lame answers like "if it's not in the box then it magically doesn't count, even if you already had access to the missing part for free".

In addition, as an OGL game, Paizo had NO CHOICE.  In fact, THEY didn't put it online first, someone else did and they responded to that with their own online version.  That's what happens when you leach from the industry leader under their licensing system.  Note that WOTC did have a choice about putting it online, and did anyway.  But you trumpeting Paizo for putting it online like it was some beneficent act of kindness is fucking hilarious, and a misrepresentation.

Quote from: Skywalker;751781So, the point of distinction is that this time it has layout?

Sure. As others have mentioned, it matters.

Quote from: Skywalker;751781Does the SRD get any bonus points for being 100% of the rules, not just 15%?

Of course, but only devoted gearheads delve into a document that forbidding, not new players looking for an easy upgrade to something they are tentatively contemplating as a longer term hobby.

Quote from: Skywalker;751781So, you revert to a subjective opinion to avoid the arguing the point?

Sure. This whole conversation is rife with subjectivity.

Quote from: Skywalker;751781But yes, it did cost $10, though you got a whole lot more than 15% of the PHB.

Yes you did, but 10$ is 10$ when you're debating taking a few more tentative steps into a hobby. And I had DDI; it was NOT printer friendly and it could be quite intimidating to navigate.

Quote from: Skywalker;751781What I don't understand is how some of these people are trying to pretend that this approach is "in every respect better" than previous approaches.

Fair enough. I think it's not as good as Mentzer (from what I've seen) better than 4e, and more accessible than Pathfinder.