Quote from: Sacrosanct;751583And now we can see exactly what's going in on the Starter set.  Pretty good for $20, IMO.  Especially since players will have a way to generate their own PCs

Now I'm really hoping that the free 15% will be in an easy-to-print format. If that's the case it should lay all reasonable complaints to rest.

Quote from: Back of the Starter Set BoxGame Components

- 64-page adventure book with everything the Dungeon Master needs to get started

- 32-page rulebook for playing character levels 1-5

- 5 pregenerated characters, each with a character sheet and supporting reference material

- 6 game dice

Eh. Seems fine to me, but I don't see anything special about it.

I wouldn't expect character creation to be in the box anyway.

Quote from: Mistwell;751579"(!!!)Approx 15% of the D&D Player's Handbook will be free on WotC site to cover the basics of building characters for those getting Starter Sets. [EDIT: @thalmin mentioned the rules will be for BASIC characters (emphasis from the WotC rep)]"

Not what I was hoping for - still chargen rules in the Player's Guide, and a free app.

Pundit, was this the thing you were expecting that'd make us feel more excited about the Starter Set?

Quote(!!!)Approx 15% of the D&D Player's Handbook will be free on WotC site to cover the basics of building characters for those getting Starter Sets.

Well, then.

I'm sure there will still be complaints that the chargen rules aren't physically in the box itself. But it's a non-issue for me.

I'm probably the least computer-savvy person in my entire circle and I figure that if I can find it, just about anyone can.

Quote from: Haffrung;751584I find it encouraging that 5E will be a game that's simple enough where players don't need to buy books, and where most of the published content will be aimed at DMs.

Players rarely "need" to buy books.  However, WotC does "need" to keep cranking out player books in order to keep the revenue stream going. It's simple math - you can sell to 1 DM or 5 players.

Even the back of the new PHB hints at what's coming (bold emphasis mine):

"Use this book to create exciting characters from among the most iconic D&D races and classes."

That implies (or at least I infer) that the 'lesser iconic' races and classes will be coming in another book. That's fine - WotC needs to make money - but I'll be very surprised if most of their future content targets DMs.

Quote from: Mark Plemmons;751592That implies (or at least I infer) that the 'lesser iconic' races and classes will be coming in another book. That's fine - WotC needs to make money - but I'll be very surprised if most of their future content targets DMs.

They have already announced that Warforged will be in the DMG. I pretty much expect all races heavily tied to campaign settings will also be in DM hands.

Quote from: Mark Plemmons;751592Players rarely "need" to buy books.  However, WotC does "need" to keep cranking out player books in order to keep the revenue stream going. It's simple math - you can sell to 1 DM or 5 players.

Are there really groups where every player buys multiple books a year? And Paizo has shown you be a successful RPG company selling mainly to DMs. Their bread and butter are their adventure paths.

Quote from: Mark Plemmons;751592Even the back of the new PHB hints at what's coming (bold emphasis mine):

"Use this book to create exciting characters from among the most iconic D&D races and classes."

That implies (or at least I infer) that the 'lesser iconic' races and classes will be coming in another book. That's fine - WotC needs to make money - but I'll be very surprised if most of their future content targets DMs.

No doubt there will be books aimed at players. But I really doubt it will be anything like 3E - the Next devs have repeatedly said not to expect nearly as much crunch released as in previous editions, and that they made the mistake in the past of catering the game too much to hardcore players. The driving principles of Next is dialing back the complexity to make the game more accessible. Splat books undermine that principle.

I expect most of the Next books to be setting and adventure material, with player content embedded in them (new backgrounds, feats, sub-classes).

It seems reasonable to me that if the optional rules modules are in the DMG then future products that add to characters based on those modules would also be included in DM centered material.


Also, I think the DMG should include a magical tea party module just to piss off the 3E/4E crowd.

Quote from: Mark Plemmons;751592Players rarely "need" to buy books.  However, WotC does "need" to keep cranking out player books in order to keep the revenue stream going. It's simple math - you can sell to 1 DM or 5 players.

Is that sounds logical but is that a good strategy overall? Now that we are in our second decade of companies following the "splat book" model where has it got them?

It seems that the only way to sustain a splatbook method of publishing is to reset the line every three to five years and start it over.

It also seems that every time this is done it fractures their fanbase.

Sure if you do nothing your overall sales will continue to decline so you have to somehow appeal to a new generation.

What if there is a different way? Instead of focusing on selling to the players. You focus on the experience i.e. the adventures, campaigns, and setting.

There can still be player oriented products that support what currently being focused on. The focus on crafting a package of products that support an interesting experience. A campaign in a city in a volcano caldera, a campaign about carving your realm out of the wilderness, and so on.

Fans your game can jump in and out whenever they like. In addition what they mastered about the game will still apply as the same "edition" is still being used.

The trick is that you have to craft an "interesting" experience that people want to play. It like trying to write a good book, or make a great film. There are things you can do improve the odds but it all still boils down to correctly guessing your audience's tastes.

It seems to me that if you want to publish for the long term the above "Paizo" model will work better than the White Wolf/Wizard model of new editions + splatbooks.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;751583And now we can see exactly what's going in on the Starter set.  Pretty good for $20, IMO.  Especially since players will have a way to generate their own PCs

I think this is not the end of the world.

Keep the starter set super simple.

Don't include the 15% of the PHB -- so as to not confuse the newbs at the beginning with all the extra material.  Keep it lean and let them get right into it.

Include a sheet in the box telling them where to go to get the chargen rules.

It's a compromise. Not the way I would have preferred, but it's not super bad either. I mean, I bought a digital camera, and it didn't come with a full printed manual. Manual was on CD. Instead of throwing in the CD, I just googled the PDF from their website. Was easier. I think many people are like me. Grabbing a PDF off the website when you're ready for chargen should be no problem. Everybody does this for tonnes of stuff nowadays, kids and fogeys alike.

Also, this will get them interested in what else is for sale for D&D. Brings them to your website.

I would have preferred char gen in the box, but maybe they were wanting just to keep things dead simple for the newbs.

Well, I would have bought a complete game in a box, to give it a try. Would have paid up to maybe $40, the price of a typical RPG these days. I'm not buying their starter box or their $150 full game, and I doubt I'll bother trying to read stuff on their website - I hate reading stuff online unless it's HTML, ie actually designed for online presentation, but WoTC always use horrible pdfs. Guess I'll stick with my existing umpteen versions of D&D.

Quote from: estar;751605Is that sounds logical but is that a good strategy overall? Now that we are in our second decade of companies following the "splat book" model where has it got them?

It seems that the only way to sustain a splatbook method of publishing is to reset the line every three to five years and start it over.

It also seems that every time this is done it fractures their fanbase.

I didn't say it was a good strategy - but that fact that we're in our second decade of it tells me that it's likely to happen again. I'm not sure that WotC has learned enough from their mistakes - or that Hasbro will be interested in following the Paizo model. Maybe I'm wrong.

Oh, one side note - I'm guessing that a decent chunk of Paizo's operating revenue comes from their online store, where they sell their own and other products directly to the fanbase. In contrast, all WotC product goes through retailers and distributors who each take a significant cut of the MSRP.

Maybe they're planning to do what they did with 4e:

• The traditional DMG/PHB/MM game (for hardcore gamers)
• A more accessible Essentials-style game (for more casual gamers)

Perhaps the Starter Set is actually the beginning of the Essentials line and there are as-yet-unannounced products that will fill the chargen gap.

NB: I'm not saying that this is a good/logical idea/strategy. I'm just throwing it out there in a brainstorming sense...

It has just been announced that 15% of the Players Handbook will be online, free. This will be a PDF covering basic character generation.