This is my guess.

They are going to release the whole game for free download on July 15th.
They are not going to release PDFs for sale ever for the main rules.

I believe this is a good move for an intro box set. I've been running games for over 30 years now and in my experience new players get confused with character generation. From a strictly "playing the game" POV, it's the boring part for a lot of newbies. The options pressure people. It feels like they are being forced to make significant decisions about a game they know nothing about. That is not a good introduction to the game. Even an hour spent on it is an hour sitting around not playing. It doesn't sell fun very effectively.

The box set includes pre-made characters. You will (as the "teacher" of the game) have the ability via some PDF or online tool to make more. You can pre-gen plenty of options for new players to try out.  Most of the new players I have introduced to the hobby in the last 5 years have all asked for either a) a pre-gen or b) for me to make the character with them, translating their questions onto a character sheet (pre-gen by proxy?).

This approach allows newbies to kick the tires on the game, getting knee-deep into the playing parts before having to decide what character options they want. I think this will encourage newbies to try various options as well. People don't invest as much into pre-gens, so the focus will naturally steer towards learning the game and the various options (IMHO).

The Box Set is not targeting the grognard market. It's targeting new players. If you are a grognard the $20 buy-in will simply be a preview for YOU (well, US really...). Otherwise, it's a savvy move to making the game more accessible.

The full rules will be out before year's end. Can you make level 5 in two months? That doesn't seem likely, but in SEPT you can stop kicking around the box set and start your new campaign with FULL char gen. Seems reasonable to me.

I wasn't convinced that WOTC could revitalize D&D or market/produce the game in a manner that would continue the brand in a meaningful manner. This gives me some hope actually. I'm especially encouraged by the desire to take the right amount of time to release the books. As a QA person, I appreciate a focus on quality.

Put me in the "no-character generation in the starter means I won't buy a single product" camp.  It's possible I'd bring it in for the store if people want it, but I'll tell them how much more Pathfinder respects them and puts out a far better product first.  Also, computer chargen for D&D is ridiculous.  For Rolemaster or GURPS I can see it, but if you need a computer to make a D&D character the designers should be whipped.

I guess part of the reason it doesn't bug me is that character creation is, to me, less interesting than actually playing the damn game.

And if character creation is more complex than it was in the old days (roll some stats, pick a class), it can certainly be a barrier to entry.  Not shoving that much complexity in the face of new players is understandable.

Having it available as an online builder/free PDF is reasonable.  To me.  Having an additional charge would place it more firmly in the "crippleware" category.

If the starter set is DM-focused, that makes me hopeful. It means that every kids who gets a copy of the thing and wants to use it will be prompted to try their hand at DMing - let their enthusiasm draw in the players. That being the case, giving them pregen characters they can put down in front of their friends so they can start playing ASAP makes sense - as pointed out, as much as people love character gen once they get into the hobby, it's a huge speed block for total novices.

If character gen is freely available online at a place the boxed set directs kids to, I'm broadly satisfied. (I'm even happier if the information is there to let them roll characters by hand.) If you really don't want to give a kid a box without character gen, print out the dang PDF and hand it to them with the box - bingo, job done.

What I'd really like to see is a player-facing starter booklet containing character gen information which is distributed for free wherever the starter set is offered. That'd be ace.

Quote from: trechriron;750808I believe this is a good move for an intro box set. I've been running games for over 30 years now and in my experience new players get confused with character generation. From a strictly "playing the game" POV, it's the boring part for a lot of newbies. The options pressure people. It feels like they are being forced to make significant decisions about a game they know nothing about. That is not a good introduction to the game. Even an hour spent on it is an hour sitting around not playing. It doesn't sell fun very effectively.

The box set includes pre-made characters. You will (as the "teacher" of the game) have the ability via some PDF or online tool to make more. You can pre-gen plenty of options for new players to try out.  Most of the new players I have introduced to the hobby in the last 5 years have all asked for either a) a pre-gen or b) for me to make the character with them, translating their questions onto a character sheet (pre-gen by proxy?).

This approach allows newbies to kick the tires on the game, getting knee-deep into the playing parts before having to decide what character options they want. I think this will encourage newbies to try various options as well. People don't invest as much into pre-gens, so the focus will naturally steer towards learning the game and the various options (IMHO).

The Box Set is not targeting the grognard market. It's targeting new players. If you are a grognard the $20 buy-in will simply be a preview for YOU (well, US really...). Otherwise, it's a savvy move to making the game more accessible.

The full rules will be out before year's end. Can you make level 5 in two months? That doesn't seem likely, but in SEPT you can stop kicking around the box set and start your new campaign with FULL char gen. Seems reasonable to me.

I wasn't convinced that WOTC could revitalize D&D or market/produce the game in a manner that would continue the brand in a meaningful manner. This gives me some hope actually. I'm especially encouraged by the desire to take the right amount of time to release the books. As a QA person, I appreciate a focus on quality.

Really?

How many people are gaming today because they got started with Holmes Basic, or Moldvay Basic, or especially Mentzer Basic? Did those sets not work? Did they not bring new players into the hobby? Why cant they do the same again? The Pathfinders Beginner's Box is AMAZINGLY well done; and sells quite well. And it is for one of the chunkiest rules systems out.

I have a cousin interested in RPGs. He likes Star Wars, so I looked into getting the new Edge of the Empire Starter Set. Honestly, I cannot give such a product... IT is not geared to a player, especially a new player. Yes, it teaches the basics of the game mechanics but without character creation, it doesn't teach any of the fundamentals of the game, how characters go together or why even play. You are stuck with multiple lifeless pre-gens in a set geared for someone who wants to run (and a limited game at that) one off one-shots.


A Starter set is by far the simplest of concepts to get, and yet so few do...

Quote from: YourSwordisMine;750814Really?

How many people are gaming today because they got started with Holmes Basic, or Moldvay Basic, or especially Mentzer Basic? Did those sets not work? Did they not bring new players into the hobby? Why cant they do the same again? The Pathfinders Beginner's Box is AMAZINGLY well done; and sells quite well. And it is for one of the chunkiest rules systems out.

It depends on how many pre-gen characters are given, and how it's presented.

Also keep in mind that character creation has become exponentially more complex since the Moldvay/Mentzer days.

I like rolling up dudes. Even in simple systems. Nothing beats rolling up some dudes.

Quote from: Warthur;750813If the starter set is DM-focused, that makes me hopeful. It means that every kids who gets a copy of the thing and wants to use it will be prompted to try their hand at DMing - let their enthusiasm draw in the players. That being the case, giving them pregen characters they can put down in front of their friends so they can start playing ASAP makes sense - as pointed out, as much as people love character gen once they get into the hobby, it's a huge speed block for total novices.

You are describing every D&D box set that had no character creation in it. It won't prompt purchasers to be DMs any more than they did.

Calling it "DM-focussed" is just a euphemism.

Quote from: robiswrong;750815It depends on how many pre-gen characters are given, and how it's presented.

5. The blurb says that.

No Chargen = Crippleware

What more is there to say?

Pregen characters are good so players can start gaming as fast as possible, but its no big deal for there to be 4 races and 4 classes going to 4 levels (aka short list of 2nd level spells) so people can try out their hand at making their own characters.

Quote from: Skywalker;750818You are describing every D&D box set that had no character creation in it. It won't prompt purchasers to be DMs any more than they did.

Calling it "DM-focussed" is just a euphemism.

Saying a Starter Set is DM focused then it really isn't a Starter product is it...

Quote from: trechriron;750808...From a strictly "playing the game" POV, it's the boring part for a lot of newbies. The options pressure people. It feels like they are being forced to make significant decisions about a game they know nothing about. That is not a good introduction to the game. Even an hour spent on it is an hour sitting around not playing. It doesn't sell fun very effectively....

That's been my experience. The ones who hang around the hobby the longest were the ones who got right into the game and who felt comfortable with the basic rules. Chargen wasn't that big of a motivator. It was already a big enough decision for them to decide whether they wanted to play a fighter or a wizard, and the real long-termers tried out every basic class at some point.

Also, in a certain sense, if WotC puts out a SRD, they'll to catch some criticism whichever way they go. If they include it in the basic box, then people are paying for what they could already get for free. If not, then its "crippleware."

Funny thing is that I remember when people were outraged about having to pay over and over again for the same basic rules in the Essentials players books and DMG. This is almost like the flip side of that.

Quote from: Saplatt;750825Also, in a certain sense, if WotC puts out a SRD, they'll to catch some criticism whichever way they go. If they include it in the basic box, then people are paying for what they could already get for free. If not, then its "crippleware."

I have yet to see that criticism about the Pathfinder Beginner Box, which is in exactly the same boat. Mostly it just gets praised. Lots of it. As such, I don't think they would have been criticised whichever way they went.

Quote from: YourSwordisMine;750821Saying a Starter Set is DM focused then it really isn't a Starter product is it...

DMs gotta start somewhere. And if every kid who gets this box tries their hand at DMing...