Quote from: Willie the Duck;1011167First and foremost, each edition has had a different relationship to magic items, their prevalence, and extraneous factors (for instance, +1 chain and +1 battle axe are rather substandard magic items, much like +1 chain would be in 5e). Same with gold. Take a look at the 1e xp charts--most of that xp is going to be acquired as gold piece value of treasure acquired (the old gp=xp). So your party of four (with level up thresholds between 1200 and 2500) is going to need to acquire 5000-10,000 gp before they hit 2nd level. That's significantly different from 5e where gp is mostly a determination of how many healing potions you get to use or when you get full plate (at least until you are the level where you start thinking about buying keeps or merchant ships or whatever).

So yes, dividing the sitting treasure by a set number (be it 2, 5, or 10) is a reasonable way of altering those numbers to make them work for you. But also, remember that gp=xp thing going on in Gygax penned (or helmed, basically all pre-2e TSR) editions when looking for a method to the madness.

Now, there is a side issue of the 755 gp equivalents and several magic items sitting on a relatively undefended farm. This does seem to violate the 'with significant treasure is supposed to be significant guardian/challenge' concept one might expect. However, this is really setting up a decision-point for the adventurers. The author is placing a plot hook here. This farm is relatively unguarded, but several 4th-10th level NPCs have a vested interest in it. What do you want to do? As Dave R. suggest, Gary is totally prepared for you to go straight up murderhobo (or burglerhobo) if you want, which gives you an early gp/xp boost, but also adds a complication/enemy. Or, if you prefer, you could beg/plead/negotiate for use of those items (or the allies tied to them). The choice is yours.

Thank you! I did not have time to analyze it this far and this is the break down I was imagining in my head. Sometimes I look at the treasure hauls in these older modules and think, "wow you could live like a king off of that".

I do not have the 1e rules, I always used BECMI back in the day and now either DCC or 5e.  But later tonight when I have time I will expand on the baseline I usually have in my head.

Another point - this module is an extension of actual campaign play, so this isn't some greenfield village where the PCs are the only heroes seen in years and years.  Jaroo was a PC of Tim Kask, other NPCs used in this module were PCs in the campaign.  Note that Rufus and Burne are building a stronghold in the area, so it's certainly in an economic expansion phase as it regains its former prosperity.

During the previous campaign there was a large battle nearby (the battle of Emridy Meadows) and the moathouse was destroyed.  I think it would be unusual for none of the spoils of those actions to have been retained in the town's semi-retired adventurers.  The PCs are there to continue what others started.

But then again, I really don't care about realistic economics or dazzling players with that sort of depth, either.  Pretend money is the ultimate fiat currency - there are no economic repercussions if I don't desire them.  And I don't, so there aren't.  I tell prospective players who want deep verisimilitude about a campaign world in general, that my campaign isn't for them.

Quote from: Dumarest;1011186How dare you assert that the ref is allowed to run his own game as he sees fit, sir!

It is the sacred word of Gygax! Not a single jot or tittle must be allowed to be altered. So say we all.

One of my earliest AD&D games was in the Village of Homlett. I don't think there was a single NPC left alive by the time we were done with the place. In our defense the oldest of us might have been all of 16 at the time. I came in on the group's second play through, I think. Either that or they had all read the module, so they knew where the treasures were hidden.  Somehow I stuck with the game despite that.

Quote from: JeremyR;1011139Well, bear in mind the "Modest Farmhouse" you are referring to is the home of a retired adventurer who has one son who is currently an adventurer and 10th level Ranger and another other brother is also an adventurer who happens to bean agent for the Viscount of the area.

So...not a great example and you seem to have deliberately ignored all that detail just say "Hrr, hrr, Gary Gygax was dumb, hurr hurr"

But with that said, no, D&D is not an economic simulation. The whole money system seems to more or less be inspired by England of the Victorian era, where you have gold coins (sovereigns) worth a pound and were worth 20 silver shillings

To be fair, back in Gygax's day, people were literate. Today, if it's not on a YouTube video, it doesn't happen.

Quote from: MonsterSlayer;1011115I am going through some of the 1e and D&D modules for some adventures to use with 5e and or run as is. Right now I am reading the Village of Homlet and the first two "peasant cottages" have enough treasure to run a kingdom for a year in my campaign world...

The "Modest Farm" has a lead lined chest with:
+2 shield; +1 chain mail; +1 battle axe; 6 each 100 gp gems; 10 pp; 50 gp; and 100 sp.

I'm a miserly scrooge in every edition so that is right out the window. But  I started thinking, players probably "like stuff" (yeah, no duh..)

So excluding the magic items which I find to be "too much" for 5e and my DCC campaign, how would you deal with the "cash"? Would you inflate the prices on everything across the board? Do you make plate male cost 10k GP or is it easier to cut treasure down in all of these old modules?

Or am I completely off base and Ole Man Gygax was also the Alexander Hamilton of the fantasy world too? And I just don't see the economic genius at work here.

I *might* just keep the money as is if I tried GP for XP in 5e. However I would hide it in different caches for additional challenge. And I would add more mobs for emphasizing more social and exploration (stealth) challenge. You can't kill 'em all, and you wanna get the loot out and converted into XP as fast as you can. Basically built in time limit with valuables worth more than the combat.

And the gems GP:XP would be divvied up like the money, how the players choose. Which, depending if PvP is on, or players have interesting reasons to solo pump a party member, doesn't always have to be strictly equal. And that could really shift party dynamics so that different level PCs can play together, maybe even power level low levels.

If I turned GP=XP, where it is GP sacrificed to build your renown and nothing else remaining (a.k.a. no tangibles left from spending), that means that money comes to 760 GP (6x gems = 600 gp, 10 pp = 100 gp, 50 gp, 100 sp = 10 gp). Split between 2+ PCs suddenly becomes a reasonable loot amount, giving dynamic choice between how much to keep for better gear and expenses, and how much to boost one's renown (XP).

I'd likely split up the gems into at least 3 pairs, and a batch each of pp, gp, and sp.

I'll come back to this topic about the magic items and how I'd convert this if I gave XP for different reasons...

The magic items... I'd probably keep the Battle Axe as is. It's a solid item, if rather banal by now, and does intimate that our farmer was likely a past adventurer.

As for the armors, I'd definitely take off the bonuses. They are all great in OSR DnD, but a +2 AC to shield that early is a bit too swingy translated to 5e. What could be quite cool is attach Feats to each, to suggest this guy was an adventurer. Say Sentinel Chain Mail and Duelist Shield (or Shield Master Shield). Sure it's strong, but the Feat would be attached to the item, not the adventurer.

Or you could play around with Resistances and Immunities. Or add other functions, like an attached spell, or a race/class/archetype Trait or Feature, with or without charges. That way you have the whole PHB to tinker with.

Chain Mail of Riposte - add Battle Master Riposte + 1d8 die. X charges. Y recharge req.
Shield of Halfling Luck - add Halfling Lucky, rerolll 1s on d20 rolls.
Orc Chieftain Chain Mail - add extra weapon damage die to melee crit.
Blasé Shield - immunity to Shocking Grasp & Vicious Mockery, resistance to lightning and psychic.
etc.

Quote from: Turanil;1011151All that wealth in a peasant cottage is just lame and utterly absurd.

Another idiot speaks. Hooray.

Try actually reading instead of jumping on the band wagon of stupid.

A summary of the first six entries

Quote1) The farmer has 57 p.p. hidden in his mattress and a 500 g.p. gem secured in his pouch against hard times.

2) The elderly farmer is a retired fighter .. Underneath some rusty nails in a keg in the back shed are 20 p.p., 51 g.p., and 172 e.p. A cupboard in the house holds a silver service worth 1,300 g.p.

Elmo is a 4th level ranger ... He has the following Items hidden in a lead-lined oaken chest buried in the dirt floor of the barn: +1 chain mail, +2 shield, +1 battleaxe, 6100 g.p. gems, 10 p.p., 50 g.p. and 100 s.p. He carries a +2 dagger at all times.

3)This rustic abode houses the local woodcutter ... In a pouch under the floorboards of his cottage are 9 g.p., 13 e.p., 17 s.p. and 38 c.p.

4) Well-kept farm .. The two sons have a large iron pot buried beneath the tree in the back yard; K holds 97 g.p. and 421 s.p.

5) Prosperous Farmhouse. .. Inside a crock in the manure pile are hidden 3 50 g.p. gems, 37 p.p., and 55 g.p. He carries 8 p.p., 15 g.p., 22 s.p. and 8 coppers in his purse.

6) his is the home and business of the village leatherworker .. Sewn into an old horse collar are 27 g.p. and 40 p.p. as well as a silver necklace worth 400 g.p.

Since I started playing in the late 70s there been two threads of thought about levels, magic items and all that. One that magic items are exceedingly rare, and leveled characters are special heroes. The other is that levels are an indication of experience and that magic items are a pricey luxury item subject to the same economics as silk, and the spice trade.

The two views are not compatible but nor they are an absolute. They form ends of a spectrum on how referee treat this in their campaign. There is no right answer saw the one you want to use for your own game.  No virtue in treating magic items as rare and special, nor in having a magic shop in every town.

As for Hommlet it leans toward level as experience and magic item being a luxury end of things. Every character in the module who has a suite of magic item has a clear reason for owning what they have.

While a 4th level Ranger having +1 chain mail, +2 shield, +1 battleaxe, 6 100 g.p. gems, 10 p.p., 50 g.p., 100 s.p. and a +2 dagger at all time seems overly rich. I ran AD&D campaigns "by the book" using the treasure types and strict allocation of XP. It is entirely possible given the number of session it takes to get to 4th level for a characters to have the above.


+1 Battle Axe 300 xp
+1 Chainmail 600 xp
+2 Shield 500 xp
+2 Dagger 200 xp (estimated).

So out of 10,001 xp Elmo had to earn to be a 4th level ranger 1,600  of it came from the magic items he acquired. Doesn't sound unreasonable to me for a AD&D character.

So what are the odds that Elmo would have the above two according to the two methods of generating NPC magic items in the DMG?


First Elmos is very lucky to have one magical miscellaneous weapon let alone two. He only a 18.5% of having one (5% per level).

He has better odds on the +1 chainmail and +2 shield but still pretty lucky as he has only 34.4% chance having only one by 4th level (10% per level).


Then if you look at what the agents in #13 have; Rannos Davi and Gremog. Gygax is probably understocking the leveled NPCs.

Rannos Davi 10th level Thief
+1 magic leather armor, +1 dagger, +1 ring of protection,  +2 short sword under the counter, medallion vs crystal balls and ESP.

Gremog 7th level Assassin
+2 chain shirt , dagger of venom, disappearance dust sufficient for 3 uses in pouch;

Given that Elmos has an older brother as an adventurer and given what the above two has along with others in the town. I don't think Gygax was being overly generous at all.

Note there are TWO method of generating an NPC's magic item. One is one page 175 and the other is on page 195.

Quote from: Opaopajr;1011252The magic items... I'd probably keep the Battle Axe as is. It's a solid item, if rather banal by now, and does intimate that our farmer was likely a past adventurer.

As for the armors, I'd definitely take off the bonuses. They are all great in OSR DnD, but a +2 AC to shield that early is a bit too swingy translated to 5e. What could be quite cool is attach Feats to each, to suggest this guy was an adventurer. Say Sentinel Chain Mail and Duelist Shield (or Shield Master Shield). Sure it's strong, but the Feat would be attached to the item, not the adventurer.

Or you could play around with Resistances and Immunities. Or add other functions, like an attached spell, or a race/class/archetype Trait or Feature, with or without charges. That way you have the whole PHB to tinker with.

Chain Mail of Riposte - add Battle Master Riposte + 1d8 die. X charges. Y recharge req.
Shield of Halfling Luck - add Halfling Lucky, rerolll 1s on d20 rolls.
Orc Chieftain Chain Mail - add extra weapon damage die to melee crit.
Blasé Shield - immunity to Shocking Grasp & Vicious Mockery, resistance to lightning and psychic.
etc.

Nice. If nothing else comes of this thread, this is a nice reminder of a way to spice of magic items without having a bunch of +1,2,3 etc.

Quote from: Omega;1011315Another idiot speaks. Hooray.

Try actually reading instead of jumping on the band wagon of stupid.

Another Troll speaks. Hooray.

You are a smart guy and can do better. How about answering the original question: if you think an adventure or group of adventures you plan to use are too treasure laden, do you slash them or adjust the overall economy of the campaign to account for all the loot?

If your opinion is that I am wrong and it is not too much treasure to find in one backwater town in a campaign, then just say so. But it takes a real ass hat to assume that just because someone didn't share your view on the topic they obviously didn't read it... Of all of the possible titles I could have brought up, do you think I'm really going to pull something called "Village of Hommlet" out of thin air without having read it?

Quote from: MonsterSlayer;1011383If your opinion is that I am wrong and it is not too much treasure to find in one backwater town in a campaign, then just say so. But it takes a real ass hat to assume that just because someone didn't share your view on the topic they obviously didn't read it... Of all of the possible titles I could have brought up, do you think I'm really going to pull something called "Village of Hommlet" out of thin air without having read it?

Omega was responding to Turanil, not you. Turanil appears not to have read 1) either the adventure, nor 2) the thread up to their post. Otherwise, they would have known that the scenario they envisioned (the farmers were in fact high level adventurers, although they guessed thieves instead of fighters and rangers) was in fact the actual explanation of the situation.

Quote from: estar;1011366Since I started playing in the late 70s there been two threads of thought about levels, magic items and all that. One that magic items are exceedingly rare, and leveled characters are special heroes. The other is that levels are an indication of experience and that magic items are a pricey luxury item subject to the same economics as silk, and the spice trade.

The two views are not compatible but nor they are an absolute. They form ends of a spectrum on how referee treat this in their campaign. There is no right answer saw the one you want to use for your own game.  No virtue in treating magic items as rare and special, nor in having a magic shop in every town.

As for Hommlet it leans toward level as experience and magic item being a luxury end of things. Every character in the module who has a suite of magic item has a clear reason for owning what they have.

While a 4th level Ranger having +1 chain mail, +2 shield, +1 battleaxe, 6 100 g.p. gems, 10 p.p., 50 g.p., 100 s.p. and a +2 dagger at all time seems overly rich. I ran AD&D campaigns "by the book" using the treasure types and strict allocation of XP. It is entirely possible given the number of session it takes to get to 4th level for a characters to have the above.


+1 Battle Axe 300 xp
+1 Chainmail 600 xp
+2 Shield 500 xp
+2 Dagger 200 xp (estimated).

So out of 10,001 xp Elmo had to earn to be a 4th level ranger 1,600  of it came from the magic items he acquired. Doesn't sound unreasonable to me for a AD&D character.

So what are the odds that Elmo would have the above two according to the two methods of generating NPC magic items in the DMG?


First Elmos is very lucky to have one magical miscellaneous weapon let alone two. He only a 18.5% of having one (5% per level).

He has better odds on the +1 chainmail and +2 shield but still pretty lucky as he has only 34.4% chance having only one by 4th level (10% per level).


Then if you look at what the agents in #13 have; Rannos Davi and Gremog. Gygax is probably understocking the leveled NPCs.

Rannos Davi 10th level Thief
+1 magic leather armor, +1 dagger, +1 ring of protection,  +2 short sword under the counter, medallion vs crystal balls and ESP.

Gremog 7th level Assassin
+2 chain shirt , dagger of venom, disappearance dust sufficient for 3 uses in pouch;

Given that Elmos has an older brother as an adventurer and given what the above two has along with others in the town. I don't think Gygax was being overly generous at all.

Note there are TWO method of generating an NPC's magic item. One is one page 175 and the other is on page 195.

Estar, this is a nice break down and I see one thing now that makes a bit more sense.

The treasures are based on what the adventures would have acquired using the random treasure tables over the course of an adventuring career for 1ed AD&D "by the book".

that's cool, that's not how I do things. I never played 1e and never used the random loot tables (as intended) in any edition. Mostly I judge treasure lay out based on my idea for "high" or "low" fantasy (which often seems to translate to high treasure/magic everywhere versus rarer treasure/magic).

To me, it just seemed "off" to have all of this wealth laying around a backwoods town. But if you populate the town with a bunch of retired adventures that had been dungeon crawling through dungeon's full of 1e random loot tables then it makes more sense.

So if I learned anything here, I now know that when I develop a campaign world, I don't want my campaign world's economics based on 1e loot tables. Which is cool, never really though about it like that.

Maybe, you are correct.  The part I felt leveled at me was the "bandwagon" part which I would take to mean started by the OP. If that is not what he meant by starting a bandwagon, I apologize.

Quote from: estar;1011358A summary of the first six entries

I'd forgotten that place was such a treasure trove. It makes me want to bring a party in and strip that town to the wall studs!