Quote from: James J SkachDo I hear a call for yet another Forum wherein we can discuss the design theory of Simulation/Immersion games and how they are teh b3st evar!!! and we can look down on people who don't play that way?

All kidding aside, it's an interesting observation.

Levi's GameCraft isn't specifically for Simulation/Immersion games, but I've never felt out of place there - well, beyond the first few posts.

-clash

This thread makes me love myself even more. It´s masturbatory wankerdom to read it myself.

I was right, I was right, I told you so, I told you so.

Quote from: TonyLBI totally think that other styles deserve serious innovation with a solid theoretical basis.

We are in agreement.

Quote from: TonyLBHistorically, I think that a lot of Forge games and thought concentrated around areas that were just flatly not being served.  Much of the stuff that gets tied together under a "narrativist" label sat squarely in that camp, six years ago.  If you wanted a game like Dogs in the Vineyard or My Life with Master you pretty well had to go out and make it yourself, 'cuz you sure weren't going to find it on the shelves.

Now, however, I think that things are in a different phase, where such games get created for a different reason.  The simple fact is that, in the process of creating a number of such games, quite a few folks have gotten a handle on what it takes to do them ... and more importantly they have put that understanding into words in a way that other people can (often) pick up on.  There's a mass of game-designing craft around such games, it's all very open and accessible, and if you like that sort of thing then you can grab it and go.

Strange as it seems, games about judgment and hard choices started out harder to design than games like D&D, but I think they have become the low-hanging fruit for independent designers.

If you want to make a game about moral choices, it's known territory.  People on the Forge and elsewhere will give you a ton of advice, help you pin down exactly the structure you need to back up the moral quandaries, and you're off to the races.

That's very insightful, and in line with my experience as well.

Quote from: TonyLBInterestingly, the same is true if you want a game about competition and strategy ... you just need different sources.  Boardgamegeek is good, as are the academic fields of game-theory.

I think I follow you here, although with that kind of advice, where board game ends and RPG begins...I mean, SJGames' Ninja Burger is an excellent little card game with a whole lot of roleplaying elements implied.  However, it's be neat to see something on the other side of that spectrum.

Quote from: TonyLBOn the other hand, games about just being, and savoring the richness of experience without casting judgment on it ... man, those are hard.  To do that, an author has to start from the ground up, because there are very few practical formulae.  Yes, there are all those games already out there, and there's even a ton of theory (from the days of r.p.g.a) but there is a genuine dearth of game-design craft.  There are people who know how to make these games, but they haven't codified those skills so that they can be easily picked up by a novice.

In my experience, that makes it harder to get a draft of such a game that even begins to work properly.  I'm making a game that will probably be labelled "simulationist."  It's been hard going.  I've had to invent a lot of stuff, and analyze a lot of things that everybody sorta-kinda-almost knows, but which they can't hang words on.

It's hard and sometimes frustrating.  I think it will be worth it, but I can certainly understand that if a person just wants to make a game then the styles that are better mapped out are awfully tempting.

Can you explain by what "just being" means as the point of an RPG?  I think you're trying to express how difficult it is to define those things that we gamers usually do innately, right?  I'm interested in your thoughts here, and your game...it seems in line with my own designs.

Quote from: TonyLBDoes that make sense?

Mostly!

Quote from: Andy KI thought people making, owning and distributing their own games Fugazi-style was the main focus of the Forge? :confused:

Yup, in the same way Stalin was a communist.  Their intent and their actions don't line up, is what I'm saying.

Granted, the Stalin analogy is pretty bad, and doesn't reflect my feelings, I just can't think of a better analogy yet.

In the words of my ol' pal Ted from our Shadowrun games of ages past, "Waaaah! My pussy hurts!"

One look at any shelf in any game store will show you why there's been a deluge of..."new style" games since 2000. If you want to see other styles or old-timey styles represented, WRITE ONE OF THOSE GAMES.

Really, it's like going to the grocery store and complaining that one of the 44 aisles is reserved for organic foods. And speaking of which, y'ain't never seen a flame war until you go to a foodie site and ask them what "organic" means.

- J

Quote from: Jared A. SorensenIn the words of my ol' pal Ted from our Shadowrun games of ages past, "Waaaah! My pussy hurts!"

One look at any shelf in any game store will show you why there's been a deluge of..."new style" games since 2000. If you want to see other styles or old-timey styles represented, WRITE ONE OF THOSE GAMES.

Really, it's like going to the grocery store and complaining that one of the 44 aisles is reserved for organic foods. And speaking of which, y'ain't never seen a flame war until you go to a foodie site and ask them what "organic" means.

- J

Who are you directing this towards?  Me?  I'm not talking about quality or anything, I am simply asking "why," and not in any kind of judgmental way either.  I'm seriously asking why the Forge, specifically, is dealing mostly (overwhelmingly) with games that focus on a Narrativist playstyle.

I ain't complaining, I'm wondering.  I'm not even setting up for anything judgmental.  I just might design a game someday, but for now, I'm curious why the cutting, bleeding edge of gaming theory is all but ignoring two thirds of its own theory.

People like meat.

"organic" is a conspiscious consumption produc(e/t).

Not being an insider I can only speculate, but I think the reason for the Forge focusing on Nar games is that there was a pent up demand which wasn't being met by the existing industry and related hobby culture. Ron focused on both of these factors...which to a large degree resulted in a confounding of purpose, as a culture grew up around personalities, ideology, and patterns of consumption. As a result you have quite a few Forgites and Story-Gamers (sorry, Andy, but it's true) who are ostentatiously dismissive of "traditional" styles of play, and fans & producers of those games simply self-selecting out of the group--as we see here with Clash & Bill. This feeds back into the process of group identification.

Quote from: flyingmice"Indie" has a Forge-ish taste which doesn't apply to my games, and their whole Communist-chic look leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

:respect:

I think Tony and Eliot and Andy hit it: Games like Inspecters and Sorcerer were pretty freaking rare pre-2000. It only makes sense that there was a rush to that side of field once the insights into that kind of game design became transparent.

Also, most of the small press stuff that's coming out of that community is narrowly focused and designed expressly to be turned around in less than a year and played in one night. This school of thought makes Sim design priorities difficult, as Tony pointed out.

However, most of the games with forums on the Forge have very strong Gamist components to them. They are probably more ardently gamist than DnD or it's numerous children -- they demand you play the game by the rules and play to "win."

That said, the current crop of narratively focused games is just a trend. It'll change. Most likely, we'll start seeing more broadly focused games that don't gun for one particular play priority. Either that or you're doomed and the Nar-heads are going to take over the world. That style of play is certainly as accessible as number-crunching in Trad rpgs. Of course, tabletop as a whole is shrinking...maybe this current crop of games will be our salvation?

Anyway, the crack elite NYC Hardcore Playtesters tell me that Ralph Mazza's Robots and Rapiers is pretty rad. They're telling me it's a big game. With long tem play and fiddly bits and every thing.

Lastly, GNS are moment to moment play priorities. While it is possible to design a game that appeals to one particular play priority, it is also possible to activate all three priorities across the course of play of any game.

-L

QuoteHowever, most of the games with forums on the Forge have very strong Gamist components to them. They are probably more ardently gamist than DnD or it's numerous children -- they demand you play the game by the rules and play to "win."

You don´t even know wht you are talking about. It´s so pathetic.

EDIT: Go, play a RC character up to level 36. Or return to Normal, Illinois from Poland in a Twilight: 2000 campaign, before I can even start to rake you seriously...

Quote from: SettembriniYou don´t even know wht you are talking about. It´s so pathetic.

EDIT: Go, play a RC character up to level 36. Or return to Normal, Illinois from Poland in a Twilight: 2000 campaign, before I can even start to rake you seriously...

I dunno, Sett, maybe it's not Luke's main priority to be raked seriously by you. certainly I'd be avoiding it...

-clash

"r" and "t" are so closely related on modern keyboards.
Maybe there is a hidden connection that no one sees?

Quote from: Settembrini"r" and "t" are so closely related on modern keyboards.
Maybe there is a hidden connection that no one sees?

And who says Prussians have no sense of humor? I mean aside from JimBob...

-clash

Quote from: MoriartyLet me tell you about my D&D character who is a Ranger that dual-wields a hammer and sickle and who's Favorite Enemy is the Bourgeoise...

DAMN YOU ! Moriarty, now I must run this as a WFRP npc

Regards,
David R