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Author Topic: Incremental Success Improvement, as Characters Progress in RPGs?  (Read 7317 times)

Jam The MF

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What feels right for a Level 1 Character, vs a Level 2 Character; or a Level 5 Character?

Do we really need Level progression in RPGs?
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Vidgrip

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Re: Incremental Success Improvement, as Characters Progress in RPGs?
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2021, 02:24:56 PM »
I suspect that some people need it. Numerical achievement seems to be why they play.

Maybe I could do without it, but can't be sure since I've never played or run such a game. Maybe in a "troupe style" game, where I could switch between characters, so as not to get bored.

It would certainly be easier to design a realistic game in which players did not climb a power curve toward superhero status. Balance would be more predictable.

Maybe the real reason I think it would work for me is that when I read speculative fiction, I prefer stories where the hero is an average guy in strange circumstances, rather than a typical action hero. But given how hard it is to find good novels like that, I suspect that most writers and publishers have concluded that that the market demands not just heroes, but superheroes. If true, that might apply to RPG's as well.
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jhkim

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Re: Incremental Success Improvement, as Characters Progress in RPGs?
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2021, 02:54:25 PM »
What feels right for a Level 1 Character, vs a Level 2 Character; or a Level 5 Character?

Do we really need Level progression in RPGs?

Obviously we don't need level progression, since there are hundreds of RPGs without it.

I'm not sure about what "feels" right. The weird thing to me in D&D-based systems is how characters think about it. i.e. Even though they won't speak of "levels", does a first level character understand about just how powerful they will become? Would they expect similar of NPCs?

Almost all experience systems are largely metagame, but most of games have less extreme advancement that are easier to picture.

Jam The MF

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Re: Incremental Success Improvement, as Characters Progress in RPGs?
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2021, 03:41:46 PM »
Could you enjoy playing a game; wherein you get a few bells and whistles at the start, but then not progress to ridiculous levels later?  Ex: Level 1 D&D characters, who might pick up a few magic items throughout their entire adventuring career. 

Or perhaps an E3 D&D campaign, that's never meant to climb and climb and climb the ladder to Level 20?

I'm creating 4 1st Level characters for D&D 3.0; and even though I haven't selected spells for the 2 casters yet, they have lots of bonuses and trained skills.  Their only weakness is them having low HP.  4 pregens ready to go, that I as a DM am very familiar with.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2021, 03:47:43 PM by Jam The MF »
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Zelen

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Re: Incremental Success Improvement, as Characters Progress in RPGs?
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2021, 06:56:50 PM »
I don't think it's necessary but I think most players want it.

Levels tend to serve two purposes, progression and novelty.

The heroic journey archetype generally involves a character moving from being novice, to undergoing challenges, overcoming them, and coming out stronger. Because the TTRPG hobby has developed a lot of mechanics for all kinds of things, we also generally want a mechanic to express this type of narrative progression.

Levels also allow us to mechanically introduce new aspects to characters. Novelty feels good, and while you could always just run a different character, tying that novelty in to the narrative & mechanical progression amplifies that good feeling even further.
When executed well narratively, you get something like Harry Dresden's arc over 3-4 novels. And mechanically if you're running a crunchier game system (D&D3+) it's fun to see how your new power influences what you can do on the battlefield.

Mishihari

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Re: Incremental Success Improvement, as Characters Progress in RPGs?
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2021, 08:08:30 PM »
Becoming better at something in real life is enormously satisfying.  Doing so in RPGs is less so but still very enjoyable.  Having RPG characters improve is a big reward for many (I want to say an overwhelming majority but don't have data to back that up) players, and taking it out would certainly lessen motivation to play the game.

VisionStorm

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Re: Incremental Success Improvement, as Characters Progress in RPGs?
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2021, 09:30:41 AM »
I like the idea of character advancement and improvement, and you kinda need it if you want to emulate characters getting better at stuff, which is something that people do in fiction as well as real life. But it doesn't have to be character levels, specifically. You could do it with individual ability increments by spending points on them or even through random checks to see if you improve.

The amounts by which characters or specific abilities can improve depends a lot on the mechanics used in the system, what you're trying to emulate, how complex you want the system to be and how high you're willing to allow ability levels to get to.

KingCheops

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Re: Incremental Success Improvement, as Characters Progress in RPGs?
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2021, 09:35:29 AM »
What feels right for a Level 1 Character, vs a Level 2 Character; or a Level 5 Character?

Do we really need Level progression in RPGs?

A buddy of mine who plays in a Soulbound RPG game (which I'm not in unfortunately) doesn't like advancement in it as much due to lack of levels.  He feels he can't properly gauge how much his character is progressing or if he's on the correct track.

HappyDaze

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Re: Incremental Success Improvement, as Characters Progress in RPGs?
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2021, 09:44:35 AM »
What feels right for a Level 1 Character, vs a Level 2 Character; or a Level 5 Character?

Do we really need Level progression in RPGs?

A buddy of mine who plays in a Soulbound RPG game (which I'm not in unfortunately) doesn't like advancement in it as much due to lack of levels.  He feels he can't properly gauge how much his character is progressing or if he's on the correct track.
Well, for one thing, a game like that doesn't have a "correct track" of advancement. Instead, it has many possible paths of advancement and they can intertwine in various ways. For players that want their characters to grow as the play directs rather than along a preset character build, it allows a lot of freedom. However, it isn't so great for optimizers as it makes it very hard to determine if something is objectively optimal. However, I can't agree that Soulbound progression is hard to gauge. If your numbers are getting bigger, you're getting better.

Chris24601

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Re: Incremental Success Improvement, as Characters Progress in RPGs?
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2021, 01:02:04 PM »
The thing I think could stand to be better modeled is the actual learning progression. Whether level or skill-based a lot of systems just use steadily increasing progression costs where somehow starts at +0 and each +1 costs some ratio of the initial cost (i.e. 1000xp to reach level two, 2000xp to reach level 3, etc. or 2 x current skill rank to increase it by one rank).

The thing is, that’s not generally how people actually learn. Usually there’s an initial barrier to picking up a specific skill (learning a brand new computer program for example) where it seems daunting. Then something clicks and the student rapidly gains a degree of proficiency with the skill; not mastery or even expertise, but enough so that they can perform the basics under routine conditions.

After that comes years of honing the skill to gain expertise and eventually mastery of the skill (though lack of practice can also result in backslides... though often with much faster recovery of lost skill if practice is resumed than when advancing for the first time... another thing games don’t routinely model). Many times this will involve periods where someone “plateaus” for a time until another smaller period of rapid growth where some more complex aspect “clicks.”

The point being that a more realistic progression from 1-10 might look like 1, 3, 5, 5, 6, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10; quick growth to competency then a bit of a plateau period and before a final slow but steady increase to wherever the peak lies.

Or, alternatively, if you wanted PCs to start with proficiency in their core skills, start them at 5 and the rest of their advancement is getting to 10 (vs. starting them at just +1 over someone completely untrained and only eventually getting to 5 and later 10).

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Re: Incremental Success Improvement, as Characters Progress in RPGs?
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2021, 01:10:37 PM »
Of course leveling is unrealistic. It's a completely gamist construct, designed to engage players, not to simulate reality. That's why it's a continual, steady improvement, because there always needs to be a new reward to chase. It's also why it comes in packages, because periodic but quantum jumps are more compelling than continual but marginal improvements.

jhkim

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Re: Incremental Success Improvement, as Characters Progress in RPGs?
« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2021, 01:12:16 PM »
Note - Jam the MF is talking about a game where characters still improve in their abilities, but rather than improving in levels, they have more incremental improvements.

For those that aren't familiar, "E3" is a version of the "E6" or "Epic 6" version of D&D 3.X or Pathfinder, where characters improve as normal to level 3, and then after that, they stop gaining levels but continue to gain feats at 1 feat for every 5000 XP.

Could you enjoy playing a game; wherein you get a few bells and whistles at the start, but then not progress to ridiculous levels later?  Ex: Level 1 D&D characters, who might pick up a few magic items throughout their entire adventuring career. 

Or perhaps an E3 D&D campaign, that's never meant to climb and climb and climb the ladder to Level 20?

I'm creating 4 1st Level characters for D&D 3.0; and even though I haven't selected spells for the 2 casters yet, they have lots of bonuses and trained skills.  Their only weakness is them having low HP.  4 pregens ready to go, that I as a DM am very familiar with.

I've never used E3 or E6 per se, but I've played in plenty of games that don't advance into extreme power levels later. One of my mainstay games is Call of Cthulhu, where advancement is even more limited. I just wrapped up a year-long CoC campaign, which had very limited advancment and as well as four PC deaths.

In fantasy games, I've often used other systems - like GURPS, Burning Wheel, and others with more incremental improvement instead of leveling.

It also helps for there to be story, material, and social progress, where the PCs gain in information, resources (magic items and money), and contacts/allies.

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Re: Incremental Success Improvement, as Characters Progress in RPGs?
« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2021, 06:15:07 PM »
I am not  fan of 'levels" in rpgs, especially when it means a 5th level character can survive damage that would kill one or more 1st level characters.

Gurps and BRP do things right with experience improving people, IMO.

mightybrain

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Re: Incremental Success Improvement, as Characters Progress in RPGs?
« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2021, 07:12:29 PM »
What I like about the Call of Cthulhu approach is that you improve in the skills that you use. However, I have seen a player treat it very mechanically and not even try things if they already had a tick in the skill.

My tweak would be to improve if when you fail rather than when you succeed. That way it balances itself and encourages you to try even if you have a low chance of success.

Kyle Aaron

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Re: Incremental Success Improvement, as Characters Progress in RPGs?
« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2021, 07:37:48 PM »
As others have mentioned, many game systems lack incremental progress.

RuneQuest had percentile skills, each time you used one you gave it a tick, and after the adventure you had to roll above your current skill level to be able to add a few points to it - and those points were random. Thus, progress from 20% to 30% tended to be rapid, and progress from 80% to 90% much slower. This well-reflects the real world diminishing returns of efforts in any skill area - your first 100 hours learning a language or driving teach you a lot more than does your 10th 100 hours.

Classic Traveller has as a default no skill advancement at all. However, you can choose to try to improve something. Once you start lessons you get a temporary boost, then after some years you make a dedication throw (8+ on 2d6, ie 15/36 or 42% chance of success) to see if it sticks. That's like the people who come to my gym for a while and then leave - after 3-6 months they know what to do, but do they actually do it on their own?

In reality, there are only four meaningful skill levels: shit, suck, good, great. To be not shit doesn't take much time or effort. Being good takes a lot of time and effort, and great takes dedicating your life to that thing. People do have natural talent levels, but rarer than talent is people willing to make the effort to be something other than just not shit. Most people are shit at almost everything, and not shit - suck - at a few things. Most people aren't good at anything, let alone great.

That's reality. Whether you care about reality in a game with orcs and elves and fireballs and wands of resurrection or warp drives and phasers and unobtanium is another matter.
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