Quote from: Godsmonkey on May 06, 2022, 01:18:45 PM

Quote from: FingerRod on May 06, 2022, 12:30:46 PM
Last handful of posts have asked a pretty good question. Too lite for what? Good context to have.

Generally speaking, my starting point is a game suitable for campaign play.

I think its a little more nuanced than that. While in general, a rules lite system is better for one shots, some people run pretty much straight up storytelling games as campaigns.

But I guess that bring up the question of what makes up a sustainable game? Is it the mechanics, or is it the players/GM? TBH, I think both are clearly a factor. A fun mechanic engages the players (Prime example: NAT 20) But a less dynamic game, with a good table can also be a ton of fun.

Ah, but sir now we get into whether storygames are true RPGs! Haha

No, believe me I am kidding:) but another good question you ask there. I think complete systems provoke imagination. I carried around my 1e and 2e PBH everywhere. The art, the play examples, and the rules stirred the imagination. The DMGs did the same thing. I can still pick up the original DMG and read the section on Surprise and immediately have a visual on it playing out at the table.

What I see a lot of now are coffee table books with the latest ink scribbles or over the top art that do not have mechanics or game elements strong enough to support campaign play.

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Ah, but sir now we get into whether storygames are true RPGs! Haha

No, believe me I am kidding:) but another good question you ask there. I think complete systems provoke imagination. I carried around my 1e and 2e PBH everywhere. The art, the play examples, and the rules stirred the imagination. The DMGs did the same thing. I can still pick up the original DMG and read the section on Surprise and immediately have a visual on it playing out at the table.

No, I agree, storygames are RPG adjacent IMO. one could argue with the regimented nature of "moves" in the PbtA or BitD systems, that they are NOT rules lite. Storygames are TOO dogmatic,  for my personal taste.

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What I see a lot of now are coffee table books with the latest ink scribbles or over the top art that do not have mechanics or game elements strong enough to support campaign play.

MÖRK BORG for example?

I recently bought Death in Space, and while it OOZES with flavor, and the PDF has this really great 80's sci-fi vibe (and a character generator that looks like an old dial up BBS) Skimming through the rules, I realized its TOO stripped down for long term play. Everything appears to be folded into 4 abilities, Body, Dex, Savvy and Tech. Roll a D20 + the attribute vs Target number. To me, that's too few. For example:

SAVVY (SVY):
Perception, intuition, street smarts, piloting spacecraft, resisting psychological effects, detecting holographic illusions, recalling lore.

WTF does Street smarts and piloting space craft have in common? I could get behind a game that lumps skills into a "profession" rating that covers everything that would logically be included in that skill. But just because you have a high Dex doesnt mean you are equally great at piloting a space ship and firing a gun. To me, rules like that are wholly unsatisfying.

Quote from: Godsmonkey on May 06, 2022, 02:01:59 PM

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Ah, but sir now we get into whether storygames are true RPGs! Haha

No, believe me I am kidding:) but another good question you ask there. I think complete systems provoke imagination. I carried around my 1e and 2e PBH everywhere. The art, the play examples, and the rules stirred the imagination. The DMGs did the same thing. I can still pick up the original DMG and read the section on Surprise and immediately have a visual on it playing out at the table.

No, I agree, storygames are RPG adjacent IMO. one could argue with the regimented nature of "moves" in the PbtA or BitD systems, that they are NOT rules lite. Storygames are TOO dogmatic,  for my personal taste.

Quote
What I see a lot of now are coffee table books with the latest ink scribbles or over the top art that do not have mechanics or game elements strong enough to support campaign play.

MÖRK BORG for example?

I recently bought Death in Space, and while it OOZES with flavor, and the PDF has this really great 80's sci-fi vibe (and a character generator that looks like an old dial up BBS) Skimming through the rules, I realized its TOO stripped down for long term play. Everything appears to be folded into 4 abilities, Body, Dex, Savvy and Tech. Roll a D20 + the attribute vs Target number. To me, that's too few. For example:

SAVVY (SVY):
Perception, intuition, street smarts, piloting spacecraft, resisting psychological effects, detecting holographic illusions, recalling lore.

WTF does Street smarts and piloting space craft have in common? I could get behind a game that lumps skills into a "profession" rating that covers everything that would logically be included in that skill. But just because you have a high Dex doesnt mean you are equally great at piloting a space ship and firing a gun. To me, rules like that are wholly unsatisfying.

Hah, yes.
INTELLIGENCE (INT): Brains and smart smarts. You always get your Wordle in three tries or less and can pilot a SpaceX Dragon.

I was able to resist the urge to purchase Mork Borg. And while I haven't seen anyone post a solid campaign report, I have heard good things. But even that, I believe, comes from the Into the Odd family of games, which has spawned several games people love to play but not in campaigns, apparently.

I checked out Death in Space, and I see what you are saying. Cool elements. Looks like it will be a quality book. Some of the layout gets into that form over function territory, but most looks good. Then I read (one of?) the main mechanic:

Quote from: Death in Space at deathinspace.com
The core rules are straightforward: when you want to accomplish or avoid something, for example forcing open an airlock, or resisting the effects of strange radiation, you roll a d20 modified by the relevant ability and hope to roll 12 or more.

To increase your chances of succeeding, you can spend a void point. These points are gained from failed rolls and can also be used for other things, such as activating cosmic mutations – strange powers representing physical manifestations of the void.

Merp.

My take on Unisystem and its streamlined 'drama' mode to be the upper edge of rules light. The character options seem to be the spot where the crunch sits, so it has a rules medium feel, but character trait + skill + d10 with a 9 target is easy, with successes scaled to result attained above 9.

Lots of combat options/maneuvers plus a damage system that fits with a wider range of melee and weapon attacks keeps it an 'interesting' light experience. I do house rule Dex to lessen its über-stat status relative to other characteristics.

Quote from: Death in Space at deathinspace.com
The core rules are straightforward: when you want to accomplish or avoid something, for example forcing open an airlock, or resisting the effects of strange radiation, you roll a d20 modified by the relevant ability and hope to roll 12 or more.

To increase your chances of succeeding, you can spend a void point. These points are gained from failed rolls and can also be used for other things, such as activating cosmic mutations – strange powers representing physical manifestations of the void.

Merp.
[/quote]

I havent looked into the void (points) yet, but the idea doesnt sound appealing.

I suspect this game will be spending time on a shelf or on the coffee table to look at but rarely played.

Quote from: FingerRod on May 06, 2022, 12:30:46 PM
Last handful of posts have asked a pretty good question. Too lite for what? Good context to have.

Generally speaking, my starting point is a game suitable for campaign play.

I would say campaign play as well.  A game has to have character advancement.  They get better over time. 

Most rules lite games are poor in this area because games have so few dice rolls, and when they do roll the dice numbers are not large enough to have room for many bonuses or such.

Honestly, most rules lite games feel more like demo rules or something from a board game. 

Quote from: weirdguy564 on May 07, 2022, 08:39:16 PM

Quote from: FingerRod on May 06, 2022, 12:30:46 PM
Last handful of posts have asked a pretty good question. Too lite for what? Good context to have.

Generally speaking, my starting point is a game suitable for campaign play.

I would say campaign play as well.  A game has to have character advancement.  They get better over time. 

Most rules lite games are poor in this area because games have so few dice rolls, and when they do roll the dice numbers are not large enough to have room for many bonuses or such.

Honestly, most rules lite games feel more like demo rules or something from a board game.

The first version of Gamma World I played, but I think it was the 2e of that game, had no advancement rules but was by no means rules light.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on May 07, 2022, 08:39:16 PM

Quote from: FingerRod on May 06, 2022, 12:30:46 PM
Last handful of posts have asked a pretty good question. Too lite for what? Good context to have.

Generally speaking, my starting point is a game suitable for campaign play.

I would say campaign play as well.  A game has to have character advancement.  They get better over time. 

Most rules lite games are poor in this area because games have so few dice rolls, and when they do roll the dice numbers are not large enough to have room for many bonuses or such.

Honestly, most rules lite games feel more like demo rules or something from a board game. 

Not all games use dice of course . . . but I take that point to mean there isn't a clear path forward on how characters might advance, and that path is also constrained by the mechanics. A clear path forward is one of the advantages that level based systems have: they let people "see" what the future might be like if they played for a long time.
A 1d6+x system where you can advance X is also more constrained then a 1d20+x. The roll eventually becomes almost meaningless, and challenges usually aren't geared to characters with a 1d6+9

I think it's also true that some games never saw extensive campaign play before they were published. My own Simple Superheroes only had a couple long campaigns run by me, and a couple others I heard about. Which is certainly more than some games.
I was very deliberate in constraining the breath of characters abilities to help support advancement. One way was that defenses are very narrow and you only have a handful of starting talents, so chances are you'll have a few types of attacks that you are very vulnerable too, rolling only the 1d6 that everyone gets. (This doesn't mean you can't have one or two top end talents - you will.)
A character focussing on many defenses are viable and could actually be constructed a couple different ways, but they might not have a lot else going on.*

I also made the point to have a section in each enemy & ally write-up pointing out how they could advance, suggesting new talents they might develop.

*An Ultimate "make shields" super might look something like this, with the number being the number of d6s they can roll:
Shield Dude
Toughness: 4-force shield [D], 4-energy shield [D], 3-magic shield [D], 3-shield other [R], 2-reflect [OR]
Brains: 2-guarded mind [D], 2-sharp intellect [F]

Shield Dude can only attack with a die, and might need to spend a strainpoint to use his shield to try and escape a succesful grapple, or imprison people, or make a shield air-tight, or sound-proof. On the plus side he can reflect some attacks, and automatically react to protect others. ( D is defensive, R is reactive, F is functional, O is offensive

Quote from: soundchaser on May 06, 2022, 03:40:18 PM
My take on Unisystem and its streamlined 'drama' mode to be the upper edge of rules light. The character options seem to be the spot where the crunch sits, so it has a rules medium feel, but character trait + skill + d10 with a 9 target is easy, with successes scaled to result attained above 9.

Lots of combat options/maneuvers plus a damage system that fits with a wider range of melee and weapon attacks keeps it an 'interesting' light experience. I do house rule Dex to lessen its über-stat status relative to other characteristics.

Yeah, I like that too. If you can provide a pre-gen character and explain the character and the rules inside 15 minutes, it's good. Then you just offer a lot of options for character building later, since that's a big part that's appealing with RPGs. If all the mechanics take longer to explain than 15 minutes, you'll be narrowing your play group.