Quote from: estar;1087131The problem I have with M&M is that it is not as elegant as Champions. The same way 4th edition GURPS powers are still not as elegant as how Champions deals with it. Although all three are about as equally flexible and good designed.

Again everybody should look at 2nd or 3rd edition Champion and ask can M&M or GURPS or any other SH system pack as much in.

Yes. M&M can not only do everything Champions (any ed) can do - M&M does it faster. I know from experience. But, Champions is one of the old classics for superhero role-playing, sure.

The only Supers game I ever found to be enjoyable was DC Heroes, but that's probably not much help....getting a copy nowadays is likely impossible or very costly.

Marvel Heroic Roleplaying actually feels like comic book action.

Bloat Games has SURVIVE THIS!! Vigilante City Tabletop Roleplaying Game - https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/269372/SURVIVE-THIS-Vigilante-City--Core-Rules - should be simple OSR/D&D style mechanics. I like the use of Classes for superhero types.

I use HeroQuest for my Supers, as it is flexible and scalable. Super Powers are Keywords, or Breakouts of Keywords, no problems with using X Power to counter Y Power and so on. It just works for me.

However, at the moment there isn't anything written up for it.

Quote from: soltakss;1087243I use HeroQuest for my Supers, as it is flexible and scalable. Super Powers are Keywords, or Breakouts of Keywords, no problems with using X Power to counter Y Power and so on. It just works for me.

However, at the moment there isn't anything written up for it.

Yes, HQ's way of handling scale is the most elegant I've seen. I do wish they would hurry up on the SRD and QuestWorlds book.

Quote from: tenbones;1087122That's the primary issue about M&M. I find that when the mechanics and task-resolution of a system get more "crunchy" the natural scaling of power for the Supers Genre lend itself to far more "abuse".

M&M is a truly great piece of design (as far as deconstructing the 3e d20 chassis into the M&M configuration). But it does take a firm hand to run it. I'd LOVE to see M&M used for other genres.

I find M&M's rule of "You can't have more than X power levels no matter what" to be an amazing design choice. It really nips powergaming in the bud.

I also think that M&M needs less close supervision during chargen than other systems, PARTICULARLY Champions/Hero. Abusing the HERO system was practically a game unto itself.

Quote from: Theory of Games;1087157Yes. M&M can not only do everything Champions (any ed) can do - M&M does it faster. I know from experience. But, Champions is one of the old classics for superhero role-playing, sure.

I disagree, I think both are equally capable that it boils down to system mastery in both cases.

Quote from: Lurkndog;1087263I find M&M's rule of "You can't have more than X power levels no matter what" to be an amazing design choice. It really nips powergaming in the bud.

I also think that M&M needs less close supervision during chargen than other systems, PARTICULARLY Champions/Hero. Abusing the HERO system was practically a game unto itself.

That is a referee or player issue. I had a player whose powers revolves around a theme of stealing and redirecting kinetic energy. I explained very clearly that we are starting the campaign at X level of power. I used an example of a character two decades who powers are based around sweating rocket fuel and igniting it. He could fly from the start but due to how the character worked out he had to take a limitation of only in straight lines. The interim solution to changing direction was to spend a turn to make a acrobatic role and reignite flight. So in the first few sessions there were some comedic moments when he blew the roll and slammed into something. He had to carefully think about his flight path to do what he wanted to do and like the challenge. And eventually he earned enough experience to buy off the limitation which was a satisfying mile stone for him.

But the player with the kinetic powers didn't "get" it and acted like a dick about his limitation. To point where even his best friend told him to can it.

The key to stopping powergaming with Champions is to sit down with the player one on one and have them describe their superhero in english. Then see if the powers reflect that as well as the starting power level of the character.

The other thing is that in D&D and many other fantasy RPG, the opposition are constructed differently than the PCs. This is not the case in Champions. So anything the PCs can abuse so can the villains. Not e this is true of superhero campaigns in general.

Finally the above cap that M&M imposes can be done in Champions. Nothing says that a referee has to let the player have free rein of the rule book. In fact later editions explicitly highlight problematic areas and discusses the issue. However they remain because they allow for some of the more wonky comic book abilities to represented in the game.

Quote from: Theory of Games;1087157Yes. M&M can not only do everything Champions (any ed) can do - M&M does it faster. I know from experience. But, Champions is one of the old classics for superhero role-playing, sure.

We run 2nd Edition Mutants & Masterminds pretty regularly with a couple of house rules and vastly prefer it to any other Supers game we've tried.

The Power Levels system makes it a lot easier to scale than Champions (what the OP described wanting would probably be about a PL8 or non-optimized PL10 campaign. Likewise, the way power modifers are applied is easier to grok for new players (+1 per rank of the power instead of +1/2 modifer).

The main house rules we employ are;

- We use tradeoffs for the Fort/Ref/Will saves (max of 3xPL across all three instead of just each being buyable up to PL+5) and make them static defenses (10+value).

- We replaced the damage/resistance mechanics with the following... Main characters (i.e. non-mooks) have 50 hit points. At 20 hit points or less they're dazed (one action per turn). Recoveries and Healing effects restore 10 hp per bruise or wound removed. Damage and other effects are using dealt using 1d20 + it's ranks. The target reduces this damage by their toughness modifier (or the Fort/Ref/Will defense).

The results of the above is that characters will always have some weak point (under the base rules you could build to resist everything with a 5 or better on the die) to counterbalance their strength (ex. my PL 10 tank has Fort 25, Ref 15, Will 20, so he's fantastic at resisting physical attacks, but sucks at dodging them).

It also makes combat less swingy (a bad toughness save could end a fight in one blow) and makes it a LOT easier to use all the pregen opponents right from their stat blocks (the stat blocks just list power ranks and leave calculating the save DCs to the GM; damage powers normally have a DC of 15+ranks, other effects have DC 10+ranks... for us, the attacker always rolls 1d20+ranks for the effect).

Another interesting element of the change is that you can be a bit less restrained about Defense vs. Toughness tradeoffs. My aforementioned tank completely traded out defense for Toughness (Defense 10, Toughness 20... he's super tough, but with his "interpose" ability his reflexes work against him because his instinct is to jump into the path of fire to soak hits innocent bystanders... even if there aren't bystanders around), but because none of it is Impervious (i.e. attacks below X ranks just bounce off with no roll needed), even small arms fire (3-6 ranks for damage) in sufficient quantities can take him down (he's got Hulk-like regeneration to go with the toughness as his main "stay in the fight" ability, but enough mediocre attacks can overcome that).

So yeah, 2nd Edition Mutants & Masterminds gets my vote. If you're already comfortable with 5e's mechanics you'll find it pretty easy to slide right into it.

The OP didn't specify which comicbook universe they were going to play in, which is vital to answer the question properly. If you're playing in Marvel NYC, then FASERIP is ideal; DC Heroes for Gotham and Metropolis. For more gritty, generic games, Champions 2nd edition, and to a lesser extent the BBB (which I believe is 4th) are arguably better. Villains and Vigilantes is good for Silver Age generic gaming. A more modern game like HERO 6th isn't really a superhero game in my opinion; it's so codified that I'd more accurately describe it as a toolkit with which to design your own game. Anyway, here's my assessment of all the superhero games I own and have played:

Marvel Super Heroes (FASERIP) - A-
I used to think it was pure garbage when I was a kid until I played a session. Boy was I wrong.

DC Heroes - A
Great game, really captures the DC-style of comic. 3rd is said to be the best, but I honestly think 2nd is IF you have the 3rd edition gadget rules. 1st is still my favorite edition, though.

Champions (older like 1st - 4th) - B+
Really really good generic game that allows a ton of customization.

Champions (5th, 5th Revised, 6th) - A+ generic game, B- for supers.

GURPS - C
I mean, it's okay...

Silver Age Sentinels - B+
Good game that had zero support which is unfortunate.

Mutants and Masterminds 3rd - B
I like this game a lot but would still choose DC Heroes over it.

DC Adventures - B+
Essentially M&M 3rd, but is better because of all the background material. Really shows you HOW to make characters. I mean, basically, when you get a superhero game you write up Batman, Superman, Hulk, Spiderman, Captain America, and Iron Man probably, right? The massive roster book really shows off the capabilities of M&M.

Marvel Heroic - D+
I think this game is junk.

Villains and Vigilantes - B
Good and fast and easy.

Heroes Unlimited - B
SEVERELY underrated. Throw in all the available compatible material like Ninjas and Superspies and TMNT and you have a pretty robust system. Probably my favorite game for one-shots.

Superworld - C+
I want to like this game so much, but it just sort of falls flat. If you're a hardcore Runequest lover, though, it's not terrible.

Blood of Heroes - F
I realize this is just DC Heroes 3rd with some errata, but they fucked it up so bad with the layout and art I'd avoid it like the plague. I only keep my copy around for the gadget rules.

Batman RPG - A++++++
DC Heroes 1.5ish that came out the same time as the Michael Keaton Batman movie. By far the best super hero RPG ever produced.

Capes - F-
No gamemaster. Enough said.

EDIT: RE: Marvel Superheroes...that's my recommendation because, as stated earlier in the thread, you can basically get EVERYTHING for the game for free. Now, this can be argued ad infinitum, but I honestly think the original edition is the best because of how it's written. The presentation is probably the best of any superhero RPG ever produced, and that's hard for me to say since I love the Batman RPG more than anything (and must have played 100 sessions). When they split it into Basic/Advanced, I think some of the flavor was lost, but realize the necessity of the XYZ shifts, SOOOOOO, when I run it for new players, I use the newer chart but the original rules.

Another vote for FASERIP...especially if you're gonna play in a Marvel inspired universe.

Quote from: Brad;1087353Batman RPG - A++++++
DC Heroes 1.5ish that came out the same time as the Michael Keaton Batman movie. By far the best super hero RPG ever produced.

OMG! I totally forgot about the Batman RPG. I remember seeing it being sold in Macys!

It was a remarkably good RPG. Surprised we haven't seen a retroclone? ManBat: the RPG!!!

Not being well versed in the comics I definitely prefer something generic.
Superworld is the only system I've got experience with and I liked it a lot for gritty street-level stuff with masked heroes and weird cults, ala The Shadow/The Avenger/The Spider.
Champions is something I've always wanted to try but I think I'd really want to push it toward space opera/weird fantasy, to the extent that I'd turn off the people who'd likely sign on for a Champions game.

I think Brad's list is pretty good. The only difference is I'd rate M&M 3e a solid A+, and I'd rate Heroes Unlimited far lower.

I think all supers games require some level of system mastery by the GM to recognize and rein in abuse. Even if the player's don't intend to cause problems, to a certain extent its inevitable in a supers game. I mean I can't count how many times I've had players even new players want to make the Flash, or Magneto, only "better". In an open ended system its easy to make something broken. Guard rails like point limits or M&M's PL limits certainly help, but still require oversight. But its worth it for the flexibility of truly making what you want to play.

Other systems solve this by only allowing players to choose powers from pre-designed sets with system limitations built in. Palladium's Heroes Unlimited is a good example of this. Its literally not possible to make the Flash from the comics even though both M&M and Champions can do it. You can only make Kevin Simbieda's concept of what a 'balanced' character should be, complete with patronizing tone and sign telling those wannabe Superman and Flash 'power-gamers' to get off his lawn. I won't totally bag on Palladium, though. Even though I would never actually play it today, Kevin's writing style in any of his games is a fun nostalgia trip as it exudes the enthusiasm of a 1980's teen gamer. Definitely makes me flash back to my formative gaming years playing AD&D, TMNT, all summer long in my best friend's basement.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1087412OMG! I totally forgot about the Batman RPG. I remember seeing it being sold in Macys!

It was a remarkably good RPG. Surprised we haven't seen a retroclone? ManBat: the RPG!!!

It's like $5 used on Amazon. Just buy it, you lazy ass.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0923763082/ref=sr_1_1_olp?keywords=batman+rpg&qid=1557708087&s=gateway&sr=8-1

Quote from: Dragonblade;1087457I think Brad's list is pretty good. The only difference is I'd rate M&M 3e a solid A+, and I'd rate Heroes Unlimited far lower

Even though I disagree, I understand the reasoning behind this assessment. Let me just say this in HU's defense: what other superhero game is pretty much 95% compatible with D&D? You can play that game with about five minutes worth of instruction. THAT is why it's so good for one-shots: I can explain the mechanics in a few seconds. Roll a d20 and add a modifier for combat, roll a percentile die to see if you succeed at a skill check. What's funny is how people always knock Palladium games when in fact they're basically ascending AC D&D games with percentile-based skill checks.