As our current campaign is only intended to last through this year, and with the success of Endgame putting supers to the fore of pop culture, I figure that I'll pitch a supers campaign for our next endeavor.

Problem is, I'm without a system to do so.

Thus far, our group has played D&D 5E exclusively. For the first campaign with the group it was just what was being used, and then for the one after it was a Star Wars campaign that used the same ruleset so I could make use of the Living Force modules.
One of the members of the group is quite knowledgeable about both 5E and Pathfinder, but this individual also seems to be the least open to trying something that might be different.

I'd prefer something that might be a lighter ruleset, and certainly no more complex than 5E - it's way easier to wing things if you don't have specific rules that you're trying to keep track of.

Thus, my search has been been for the following (in no particular order other than specified):

I think that *ideally*, if I could find a supers toolset that could overlay onto the 5E mechanics, that would probably be the easiest sell. Yeah, I get that characters in bog-standard 5E eventually have superhuman capabilities, but that's using a somewhat implied fantasy setting that isn't necessarily going to translate great into the real world - that, and characters aren't really starting off as "super," unless a higher starting level is used.
The biggest issue with this approach is that there aren't really a whole lot of actual options for making it happen. I know that Hypercorps 2099 has a super-system, but that's also baked into its cyberpunk setting from what it sounds; if I could just get the super-parts, that would probably be a contender. I've also checked out Apex, which seems to somehow be both simultaneously too limiting yet also too abstract, and I know of 5th Evolution by Limitless Adventures (just not much about how it's supposed to work).

I've given Mutants & Masterminds a look, and I think the way that it's D20 based could be a helpful selling point. However, as the game editions have progressed, it has diverged from the bog-standard D20 mechanics enough to where I can see confusion arising. That, and I can see character generation being quite challenging, as it would be far more complex than what 80% of the group has been exposed to. I can see modifying templates or going online and getting pre-made characters helping with that quite a bit, but from a rules standpoint there would be a decent amount on me knowing how well a baddie might be with regard to the group's capabilities...and I don't have anywhere near the system knowledge to be confident in saying yay or nay on that.

I've checked out various FASERIP iterations, and I can't wrap my head around how the game is actually supposed to work. I think part of the issue is needing to internalize the various names of power levels to how they might relate to each other, but it just doesn't seem to be clicking.

Icons seems to be an interesting approach, and I like the way it handles making use of various powers for non-standard approaches, but Qualities could be a pain for both myself and the group to try to get used to. I also remember my head hurting for some of the descriptions on how to structure Tests.

Supers! RED seems like an interesting approach, and I like the idea of having the ability of making direct use of Powers for various actions; this one would be a significant change in how we would be playing, however, and I think because of that it could be a tougher sell.

I'm also been toying with the idea of using the Savage Worlds Supers Companion mashed into the Mini Six rules - I LOVE the simplicity of Mini Six, and it and Savage Worlds seem to be just compatible enough to be able to replace the guts of one with another.

Any other thoughts or suggestions? Anything that worked particularly well or catastrophically poorly, and what might have been done that made it that way?

Might I suggest Champions 2nd, 3rd, or 4th edition?
2nd edition
https://www.rpgnow.com/product/256854/Champions-The-Super-Hero-Role-Playing-Game-2nd-Edition?filters=0_0_10010_0_0

3rd edition
https://www.rpgnow.com/product/256855/Champions-The-Super-Hero-Role-Playing-Game-3rd-Edition?filters=0_0_10010_0_0

4th edition
https://www.rpgnow.com/product/207058/Champions-The-Super-Role-Playing-Game-4th-edition?filters=0_0_10010_0_0

I know Hero System got a rep, but the earlier editions are approachable games in the way that 5th and 6th are not. And Champion can replicate all the powers you see in the MCU in a straight forward way.

Plus the system is setup in a sensible manner where everything you do as a hero is represented on a one for one basis with the mechanics.

And they have a ton of support products. Although if you opt for 2nd or 3rd edition I would go with the Enemies series first.

I've been on a similar quest.  For what it's worth, I think I'm settling on Supers! RED.

Quote from: estar;1087113And Champion can replicate all the powers you see in the MCU in a straight forward way.

Ooh, yeah, I probably should have been more specific about that as well - sort of supers power level I'm aiming for.

I'd like for the game to be able to have its strengths in the power levels that you might see in the X-Men/MCU films as opposed to the DC stuff, and probably less Thor and more Cap/Wolverine levels of ability.

I can't say an unkind word about Marvel Super Heroes (FASERIP), though I concede that a fair amount of that might be nostalgia.

I've had a lot of success with Mutants & Masterminds.  I ran a 3 year ongoing with 1st edition.  Second edition kinda lost us a little but the 3rd edition is fantastic so long as you are willing to put in the work at the outset.  Powers need to be created and you need to have a concept in mind or you will likely struggle with the number of options.  If you go this route I'd highly recommend the Power Profiles book.  It is a great resource for pre-made power packages based on themes.  Saves a lot of time on the GM's side of things as well as helps players get a handle on what can be done with the system.

I'm not familiar with the current Savage Worlds version of supers but Necessary Evil was a blast when I played it.  If they haven't mucked around too much from that it would be a good low-mid crunch system to go with.

If you want something simple but pretty elegant overall check out Tiny Supers from Gallant Knight Games.  Dead simple to make characters using roles (Paragons, Defenders, Gadgeteers, etc) and then add on the powers.  The downside is that it may be too light, rule-wise, for some people and while it can do ongoing games, it doesn't have very extensive character advancement.  If you just want to tell super hero stories though it'll get you up and going in no time at all.

If you want to go more narrative in focus I've heard a lot of good about City of Mist but haven't played it yet.  Maybe someone else can chime in if they know more.

My go to is FASERIP. There is a TON of support for it (check out their Downloads section in the Resources tab). A lot of the modern fan-material is quite high-quality (some not so much).

The closest to 5e that you're going to get is Mutants and Masterminds (I recommend 3e MM). But it's pretty different than D&D.

There are others out there that are good: ICONS, Supers, Savage Worlds(Necessary Evil w/ Supers book), Champions, G-Core, DC Heroes come to mind.


Pound for pound in terms of ease of use, and scalability for me would go like this

Tier 1-  FASERIP and DC Heroes. FASERIP has a lot of knockoffs (almost all of them are excellent - but the only reason I don't recommend them is that they don't fundamentally do anything that I don't already get in FASERIP). DC Heroes is *superb*.

Tier 2 - Mutants and Masterminds, Champions. These games are excellent and scalable. My gripe is that they're unnecessarily crunchy. Champions imo is egregious of this, but I know people love it. I want to love it... I feel it demands a little bit too much system-mastery to flow well. But you know, you put your time in with any system and it'll fly. M&M is easier in this regard. They both do supers very very well.

Tier 3 - Savage Worlds, Supers, Silver Age Sentinels - Good games. Flawed for the genre. Systems that don't *quite* get me there. either due to scaling issues or odd mechanical demands that get in the way of the flow.


That's my recommendations.

Edit: If you have any questions about "wrapping your head around FASERIP" several of us in this forum can help. Just PM me, if interested.

Honestly, Mutants and Masterminds is my go-to system for supers. The first edition really hit the sweet spot of "does 90% of what HERO does at 10% of the crunch." And really, it does 100% of what I actually want HERO to do.

I don't know what third edition is like. I preferred first edition for its simplicity, but I understand there were issues that arose when people powergamed it. Second edition added more complexity, but was still playable.

Quote from: Lurkndog;1087120Honestly, Mutants and Masterminds is my go-to system for supers. The first edition really hit the sweet spot of "does 90% of what HERO does at 10% of the crunch." And really, it does 100% of what I actually want HERO to do.

I don't know what third edition is like. I preferred first edition for its simplicity, but I understand there were issues that arose when people powergamed it. Second edition added more complexity, but was still playable.

That's the primary issue about M&M. I find that when the mechanics and task-resolution of a system get more "crunchy" the natural scaling of power for the Supers Genre lend itself to far more "abuse".

M&M is a truly great piece of design (as far as deconstructing the 3e d20 chassis into the M&M configuration). But it does take a firm hand to run it. I'd LOVE to see M&M used for other genres.

Not quite sure what you're looking for, but Supergame 3E is pretty easy and everything is benchmarked (range, time, etc.).

Mighty Protectors.

It's the newest version of Villains & Vigilantes and a fantastic game.

Quote from: Steve Dubya;1087116Ooh, yeah, I probably should have been more specific about that as well - sort of supers power level I'm aiming for.

I'd like for the game to be able to have its strengths in the power levels that you might see in the X-Men/MCU films as opposed to the DC stuff, and probably less Thor and more Cap/Wolverine levels of ability.

Early edition Champions does this and the scale hasn't changed even in later edition. Human average is 10 and the system is designed that every +10 in attribute gives 4x the capability.

The Ultimate Captain America that the movies are based it on can life 2 to 5 tons so that would give him roughly a 35 strength. If he punched somebody he would 7d6 damage (STR/5) with the average human having 20 stun points.

At the batman end of things every edition of Champions is capable of fine tuning characters.

Quote from: tenbones;1087122That's the primary issue about M&M. I find that when the mechanics and task-resolution of a system get more "crunchy" the natural scaling of power for the Supers Genre lend itself to far more "abuse".

M&M is a truly great piece of design (as far as deconstructing the 3e d20 chassis into the M&M configuration). But it does take a firm hand to run it. I'd LOVE to see M&M used for other genres.

The problem I have with M&M is that it is not as elegant as Champions. The same way 4th edition GURPS powers are still not as elegant as how Champions deals with it. Although all three are about as equally flexible and good designed.

Again everybody should look at 2nd or 3rd edition Champion and ask can M&M or GURPS or any other SH system pack as much in.

I like Supers games with Savage Worlds, but that's more for "I like Savage Worlds and want to play a supers game" than "I want a supers system".

The Superpowers Companion is a very versatile book for the crunch weight. I like games with it because Savage Worlds fleshes out all the non-supers mechanics, which a lot of super systems don't. This makes my character feel special to me and allows my characters to do things that aren't always related to their super power kit.

Quote from: estar;1087131The problem I have with M&M is that it is not as elegant as Champions. The same way 4th edition GURPS powers are still not as elegant as how Champions deals with it. Although all three are about as equally flexible and good designed.

Again everybody should look at 2nd or 3rd edition Champion and ask can M&M or GURPS or any other SH system pack as much in.

No argument from me. Part of the issue (for me) is I make no claims that my Champions "system mastery" is anything but neophyte. M&M takes a little consideration, but 3.x rules are easy to bend for me due to the long time invested in it. I have *zero* doubt that Champions is a more robust game. Those books are massive. But that alone might be a red-flag to some.

I do put M&M and Champions on the same tier for overall complexity. They take a little more "oomph" compared to the lighters systems that do Supers well. I totally get a lot of people love that crunch!