Perspective guys. TSR fucked up the house cat but they didn't fuck up AD&D.

However, the mental gymnastics of trying to defend the house cat as written are pretty funny.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;543256Oh yeah, i gave an example of something like thisarising in my own game. But my point is it was quite rare (it only happened to me once in over twenty years) and combat encounters with housecats doubly so. The issue is its one of those things that is rare enough, it isn't really worth fixing if it impacts other parts of the game which work just fine (i dont want a house cat killing the wizard, but a dagger, sling or dart killing them is just fine). Really if the issue is house cats just shouldn't be able to kill people, the only solution is to not have them do damage. Because any damage potential coul produce a situation where a hc kills a pc. Alternately you could only have them do damage on a 20. Tat way it is possible but extremely unikley.

Sure they are not that common but only because after a couple of these you use common sense and stop letting cats, ferrets, crows (I once had a 1st level fighter killed by a crow) cutting yourself whilst severing a rope, slipping on a grease spell and dying, and all that stuff you use common sense.
But all of those things are indicative of a scaling issue at the lowest level. D&D has a sweet spot from about 3rd to 5th  through 7th maybe up to 9th . Now that is fine the XP system means that most play takes place in that zone.

The debate here is more because of the unwillingness of people to say Yeah the game is a bit crap for the first couple of levels but just get through it because once you reach 3rd it's really in it's stride til it gets unwieldy at 8th or 9th.

Quote from: Fiasco;543257Perspective guys. TSR fucked up the house cat but they didn't fuck up AD&D.

However, the mental gymnastics of trying to defend the house cat as written are pretty funny.

I don't know who is defending the house cat as written but I'm not one of those.
The writeup in MM2 is actually pretty silly.

Quote from: jibbajibba;543258S

The debate here is more because of the unwillingness of people to say Yeah the game is a bit crap for the first couple of levels but just get through it because once you reach 3rd it's really in it's stride til it gets unwieldy at 8th or 9th.

I think one can acknowledge there are issues with stuff like housecats without having to conclude the game is crap for the first couple of levels. On the whole I like how low level characters are very easy to kill. It is just I dont want them killed by splinters or domesticated felines. I quite like levels 1-3 of play in earlier editions.

Quote from: BenoistI don't know who is defending the house cat as written but I'm not one of those.
The writeup in MM2 is actually pretty silly.

Hit Points for smaller animals have to scale somewhere. So the only "silly" thing in the game is having Humans with 2 or 3 HPs being a common occurrence, which it is.

Everything I said in my post was 100% correct. I've gamed for decades, and written a shit-ton of random encounters for 1e, so I understand that Hit Points between Humans and small animals just don't scale properly with each other. They don't.

Like I said, I can work around it (and you probably can as well), but if we don't....then the actual rules can easily cause us to experience goofy-ass situations straight out of a Monty Python skit.

Here's a pic of the adventuring party after a squirrel just mulched the torch-bearer:

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;543265Blah blah blah

Dude, you just want to keep this going. I won't go there with you.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;543263I think one can acknowledge there are issues with stuff like housecats without having to conclude the game is crap for the first couple of levels. On the whole I like how low level characters are very easy to kill. It is just I dont want them killed by splinters or domesticated felines. I quite like levels 1-3 of play in earlier editions.

1e is not crap. It's actually an excellent game, and I enjoy low-level play. The thing that kills me is when people refuse, and I mean stubbornly refuse to acknowledge real flaws in the game. When I say things like this, it's not intended to be an attack against 1e. If it was, and if I thought 1e was junk, then I would never waste my time writing material for it. I love AD&D, but I do see room for improvement. If saying that makes the Gygaxians go apeshit, then I'll just have to live with it, because I don't like adult Humans being closely matched by small animals...such as bats, cats, rats, squirrels, crows, and whatnot, unless it is deliberately intended to be comedy.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;543265Hit Points for smaller animals have to scale somewhere. So the only "silly" thing in the game is having Humans with 2 or 3 HPs being a common occurrence, which it is.

Everything I said in my post was 100% correct. I've gamed for decades, and written a shit-ton of random encounters for 1e, so I understand that Hit Points between Humans and small animals just don't scale properly with each other. They don't.

Like I said, I can work around it (and you probably can as well), but if we don't....then the actual rules can easily cause us to experience goofy-ass situations straight out of a Monty Python skit.

Here's a pic of the adventuring party after a squirrel just mulched the torch-bearer:

Don;t be daft it was a rabbit, squirrel as if. The Cleric already cast protection from squirrels rendering all such attacks moot.

I agree part of the problem is 1hp PCs, but statting cats, pigeons, ferrets etc is a bit daft on its own. They come up as familiars so they need HP and AC but they should have no attacks and deal no damage.

The issues come when you simplify down too much. If a short sword deals 1d6 then it has to be able to kill someone with a blow. So a person has to have up to 6 HP. That covers a burly labourer down to a baby on a scale of 1-6. Would be more realistic perhaps if a short sword did 4d6 damage and a  baby had 7 hp and a cat had 5 and a labourer had 19 or whatever. That might make a better balance but the added complexity would add lots of dice rolls and there is a definite feeling that a first level guy shouldn't have 20 HP it doesn't feel like D&D even if a longsword does 4d8 rather than 1d8.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;543273I love AD&D, but I do see room for improvement. If saying that makes the Gygaxians go apeshit, then I'll just have to live with it, because I don't like adult Humans being closely matched by small animals...such as bats, cats, rats, squirrels, crows, and whatnot, unless it is deliberately intended to be comedy.

Bingo.

Quote from: Benoist;543189It's false.

(1) The Domestic Cat can be found page 22 of the Monster Manual 2. It's not core BTB AD&D, but supplemental material, depending on who you ask.

Utter bullshit statement, Ben. I like AD&D, but you're coming across as a fanatic grognard.

Quote from: danbuter;543280Utter bullshit statement, Ben. I like AD&D, but you're coming across as a fanatic grognard.

And he wonders why people get on him about OneTrueWayisms with AD&D.

Sure it's way easier to cast me into that role. Makes for easier dismissals.

Quote from: danbuter;543280Utter bullshit statement, Ben. I like AD&D, but you're coming across as a fanatic grognard.

Actually, it's factual statement. (1) MM2 is a supplement, regardless of the utility of its contents. (2) some people will not see it as BTB AD&D and will not use it in their campaigns, others will.

For the record, I do use MM2 critters in my AD&D games.

Quote from: Benoist;543283Sure it's way easier to cast me into that role. Makes for easier dismissals.

Dude, you dismiss yourself by your statements. Don't try to blame your One True Scotsman approach on anyone else but you.

Quote from: jeff37923;543288Dude, you dismiss yourself by your statements. Don't try to blame your One True Scotsman approach on anyone else but you.

OK. Whatever that's supposed to actually mean.