Those stories are bunk. That's like 20 pound swords used for actual fighting. All the stuff is based on misconceptions and mistakes and some popular literary exaggerations of the 19th century. Sorry if that sounds pedantic. I certainly don't mean that anybody who wants to run a game that way is having bad wrong fun in doing so. But I know as a player I would definitely get a chuckle out of a fighting man being hoisted into the saddle. It's a comical image has more to do with Mark Twain than with  history.

RE : Heat. If I recall correctly some of the men who fought at the Battle of Taunton actually died of heat stroke because they were in full armor and exerting themselves at length. It was fought in the winter with snow. But a man can definitely heat up in firefighting gear or modern body armor stuff even if very cold weather. It's insulating. I imagine that a heavy quilted gambeson isn't all that comfortable on a hot summer day. But take a knee and drink water, right?

I think that the encumbrance system used in older editions of D&D  works just fine as an abstraction of armor's bulk, insulation, and heaviness.

The game in any edition really isn't a close or detailed simulation of medieval combat. Of course it does include some simulationist elements. One just has to decide which touches of realism one wants to include amid all the abstraction. I have my preferences.

Quote from: Zalman;1042575I'm OK with the heaviest armor meant for real fighting, just from horseback. I recall stories about knights in full plate being lifted onto their steeds with a crane (I'm sure the history experts here know more).

Armors that heavy were only used in tournaments. Field plate was light and flexible enough to stand, roll and even do cartwheels in. As stated with good weight distribution even 70 lb. isn't too bad, but you will get fatigued more quickly than someone in lighter gear and unless weather conditions are ideal it will be a hot, stuffy and sweaty affair which will further sap your endurance (drink lots of fluids).

Hell, I specifically set my default campaign location in an oceanic climate (cooler summers and winters that rarely drop below freezing thanks to the moderating influence of ocean currents and frequent rain/cloud cover which further reduces that direct sun heat) specifically to make the ability to use heavier armors as easy as possible.

I'm not sure how much thought people have really given it, but the British Isles, Northern France and Germany have the ideal climate for heavy armor use even during much of the summer months (still pretty miserable, but less so than in say in a Mediterranean or Continental climate zone).

Quote from: Chris24601;1042584Armors that heavy were only used in tournaments.

Good to get the historic perspective on that. It's still OK with me if a character needs to be hoisted into the saddle to wear the heaviest armor available in a fantasy game, even in "real" combat.

Quote from: Zalman;1042587Good to get the historic perspective on that. It's still OK with me if a character needs to be hoisted into the saddle to wear the heaviest armor available in a fantasy game, even in "real" combat.

In that case, are you familiar with the "suit armor" that appears in the D&D Rules Cyclopedia? It is pretty close to what you are describing. It also offers a little addition protection against certain types of magical attack.

Quote from: Chris24601;1042576In other words field plate is NOT something your typical dungeon-delver and wandering murder hobo would ever typically wear. If you have to wear armor all day long it's going to be lighter, more breathable and probably something you can don and doff yourself. Gambesons, brigandine vests and coats, mail shirts and hauberks, and breastplates are what your wandering heroes are typically going to be adventuring in.

And this is where you probably have to decide whether you want to be exceptionally realistic, or hew more towards "I take my plate armor and greatsword into the dungeon because I didn't pick up this game to be running around in a gambeson with a trench knife because 'that's what's realistic' for dungeon-crawling!" Although, honestly, I kinda like the concept of lots of brigandine or other lamellar and maybe daggers-though-broadswords as kinda fighter-rogue gear for dedicated 'tunnel-runner' types.

Quote from: Ewan;1042571Cool. I'm glad that my comment was helpful.  I don't know if the estimates of lower weights for plate harness include the weight of the aketon or gambeson worn underneath.  So yeah 70 lbs sounds great to me. Perfectly gameable.

I looked at several sources and I think the 70 lbs does include all the gear. Some had it pegged as low as 40 lbs but careful reading makes it sounds like the armor alone.

Whatever the base game has.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1042592And this is where you probably have to decide whether you want to be exceptionally realistic,

The general idea behind my list is to create a limited selection, peg each to something historical, and ignore all the variations. The major "innovation" I put some thought into is adding Cuir Boulli and Laminar. As it turns out Laminar was the cheap armor of the ancient period. Making armor out of layers of cloth soaked in resin, lacquer, etc pressed together.

Quote from: Ewan;1042569Sure. I'm not a big fan of the way Third Edition Nerfs medium and heavy armor. That is I don't think that a professional Fighting Man wearing a suit properly fitted should be at any hindrance in melee. If he has a very high dexterity then he ought to get the benefit of it. Of course Masterwork and Magic can allow that. I might go a bit further and reduce the associated penalties of plate with a note that the ordinary penalties or caps do apply to armor that you just loot off enemies because it's not fitted for you.

Oh and I am using my and it's voice typing capability, in case you were wondering about the odd capitalization. I'll get desktop internet access tomorrow fingers crossed.

It's funny to watch, but if you can do back flips, with a little practice you can do them in plate armor.

Properly fitted, it's surprisingly easy to move it.

The "linothorax" might be a decent sub for D&D leather armor,I suppose.

Fancy cuir boulli and quilted tourney armor would be fun. Not cheap stuff, but impressively  tooled.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1042592And this is where you probably have to decide whether you want to be exceptionally realistic, or hew more towards "I take my plate armor and greatsword into the dungeon because I didn't pick up this game to be running around in a gambeson with a trench knife because 'that's what's realistic' for dungeon-crawling!" Although, honestly, I kinda like the concept of lots of brigandine or other lamellar and maybe daggers-though-broadswords as kinda fighter-rogue gear for dedicated 'tunnel-runner' types.

It also depends on the combat system you're using/making.

I can't remember the name of the game I'm thinking of, but is this case, weapons provide options like reach or armor penetration, but the damage is based of the user's lvl and proficiency.

Gonna echo the people who've said they tend to use simple light/medium/heavy categories when given the option. Usually name them gambeson/maille*/plate.

*I prefer this spelling to avoid homograph confusion, and it looks more archaic, which suits the setting more often than not.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;1042597It's funny to watch, but if you can do back flips, with a little practice you can do them in plate armor.

Properly fitted, it's surprisingly easy to move it.

Right.

I think rules that nerf nimble warriors in mail or plate are misguided attempts at realism . Or maybe it's more about rigging things so that a nimble man  in  poor and very light armor can go toe-to-toe with a heavily armored Warrior who is just as quick and agile. I really don't like that. It probably would fit in a sort of swashbuckling game but it runs counter to the gritty quasi medieval feel I like in my D&D.

 Getting better armor/shields seems to be part of advancement for fighters, at least to me.

And it isn't as if most PCs will ditch lighter suits of magic armor for nonmagical heavier armor of the same or inferior AC. So the niche protection really isn't needed. If you are a fighter who really loves his gambeson go looking for a magical gambeson. If somebody has one see if he'll trade it

. And of course there are environments in which wearing more than the lightest sort of armor may not be such a great idea. I'm thinking mainly of places like a city in which it's illegal to wear anything more than an arming doublet in public or a tropical swamp with fantasy quicksand and similar hazards. Armor certainly helps in a shipboard fight but do you want to fall in the drink while wearing a lot of it? And then there's the Exotic stuff like actually adventuring underwater.

Quote from: Broken Twin;1042601Gonna echo the people who've said they tend to use simple light/medium/heavy categories when given the option. Usually name them gambeson/maille*/plate.

*I prefer this spelling to avoid homograph confusion, and it looks more archaic, which suits the setting more often than not.

Elegant. I think I will take the same approach the next time I run BX D&D.