When making a setting from scratch I generally prefer to stop at around scale and chain unless the setting has gunpowder.

It just bugs me slighty to have field plate and not have any gunpowder weapons.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1042387I don't slice the differentiation that finely.  "Leather, mail, plate" serves for me.  How characters choose to imagine it is up to them.

Yeah, this is my favorite armor division as well. If there are too many choices then folks will try to "work the system" somehow. I prefer a minimalist list where players can fill in the details as they like. For example if someone wants platemail I assume that it's all-out Knights of Camelot stuff, but if they want some sort of half plate or just a chest plate I can reason that it's effectively chainmail on my combat charts.

Other than mentally switching gambeson in where leather exists and recognize that 'studded leather' should only be a reference to the outward appearance of what is in fact simply light armor in the brigandine/lamellar family, I tend to use whatever the system has as-is. Unless you are using a weapon-vs-armor table, the abstraction of most fantasy RPGs is sufficiently abstract to say, 'look, there are X bands of armor, ranging from Y to Z in terms of effectiveness.'

Quote from: S'mon;1042501One thing that really struck me is that metal armour is lighter than cloth or leather for equivalent protection, and that it was not uncommon to have a heavy gambeson that was more encumbering than metal harness, but cheaper. In rpgs you never seem to see bulky cloth armour.

I think because people want there to be a 'light armor.' Mind you, there was (usually the same metal or gambeson as everyone else has, just less of it). But nothing that fits the (tv version) bulletproof vest or 'guy in a leather jacket' idea I think people want to capture. I think this comes from the convergence of 1) desire to emulate the Grey Mouser/D&D Thief/Robin Hood character, and 2) idea that heavy armor turns you into a lumbering oaf.

Quote from: Hastur-The-Unnameable;1042504Ever since I learned how historical armor works, I've been bugged by stuff like Studded Leather and the like... It almost makes me feel sad I'm no longer ignorant... almost...

It has helped me to realize that, although there are plenty of gamers out there that probably don't know studded leather isn't historically accurate (or never really thought about it), the knowledge that it isn't is probably the first thing people find out when they get serious about historical realism (probably threeway tie with 'katanas aren't superweapons but in fact a clever way to get around poor iron' and 'D&D longswords and what historically were called longswords do not well overlap').

What I use in the Majestic Wilderlands. Of all of these Ring Armor is least attested too in the historical record. But I figured given the the various account of slap-dash armor that affixing metal "bits" to a heavy fabric or leather backing isn't unrealistic. I will probably revised it to be a more generic leather with metal attached that less than scale, mail, or plate.

WEAPONS AND ARMOR
Quilt [+1]   10d/suit   20.0/lbs.
This represents a padded tunic covering the chest, arms, and upper thighs.
   
Leather, soft [+1]   25d/suit   10.0/lbs.   
Supple leather hide with separate pieces covering the chest, arms, and legs. Leather gloves and boots cover the hands and feet.

Cuir Boulli [+2]   50d/suit   15.0/lbs.
Think leather hide that has been boiled into a rigid armor similar in shape to the various pieces of plate armor. It consists of separate pieces covering the chest, arms, and legs. Leather gauntlets cover the hands.

Linen [+2]   50d/suit   15.0/lbs.
Layers of cloth treated with a resin and pressed

Ring Armor [+3]   300d/suit   30.0/lbs.   
Supple leather hide with separate pieces covering the chest, arms, and legs. Leather gloves and boots cover the hands and feet. The various pieces have small metal rings sewn on them to provide additional protection.

Scale, [+4]   600d/suit   60.0/lbs.
Scales made of metal are woven together and sewn onto a heavy leather backing. Unlike ring there are no gaps in between the scales. It is formed into a tunic that covers the chest, arms, and upper legs. Combined with cuirboulli greaves for the lower legs. Leather gauntlets cover the hands. Due its mass this armor reduces the character base movement by 30' per round.

Mail, [+5]    1,250d/suit   50.0/lbs.
Rings of metal are woven together to form a suit of armor. Typically in two pieces with a tunic protecting the chest, arms, and upper legs. Mail leggings are also worn to protect the groin area, legs, and feet. Mail mittens over leather gauntlets protect the hands. Due its mass this armor reduces the character base movement by 30' per round.

Plate Armor [+6]   3,000d/suit   100.0/lbs.
Steel or bronze metal formed into various pieces of armor. Separate pieces protect the chest, arms, legs, as well as articulated pieces for the feet and hands. Bronze plate is 50% more expensive due to the expense of finding and transporting the tin needed to be alloyed with copper. Due its mass this armor reduces the character base movement by 30' per round.

100 lbs plate?


Whoa, that is heavy stuff!

Is this a fantasy style choice or is the armor supposed to be primitive and heavy compared with Late Medieval /Renaissance plate?



Or is it like ultraheavy stuff meant for tournaments and not real fighting?

Quote from: TJS;1042505When making a setting from scratch I generally prefer to stop at around scale and chain unless the setting has gunpowder.

It just bugs me slighty to have field plate and not have any gunpowder weapons.

I think field plate existing without gunpowder largely depends on how magic works in the setting.

In a setting that's more like OD&D, Basic, AD&D or 3e where magic is very limited in use (more like artillary) that interacts with AC only rarely (most 3e spells that targeted AC targeted "touch AC" which explicitly excludes your armor or shield) then I'd fully agree that armor should only be as advanced as the conventional weapons it's meant to deal with.

But in 5e many of the cantrips like firebolt or eldritch blast require attack rolls vs. AC (including armor) and can be used at-will. Those are pretty easy stand-ins for gunpowder weaponry and I'd expect armor technology to evolve sufficiently that the knights of the day would have some degree of protection against it just as they would against arrows and melee weapons (my general assumption for D&D armor is that it is sufficiently advanced that bypassing it in favor of weak points is the only way to deal any real damage to the wearer... swords aren't punching through plate, they're sliding into the gaps between the plates).

Another element in favor of developing better armor types making sense for 5e is that while +X bows and arrows have existed in every edition (making them more accurate and harder hitting than conventional weapons), 5e makes +X armors a separate item from those with special properties like resistance, water breathing, stealth, etc. Full Plate with a property is essentially the 5e equivalent of scale +X with the same property.

In both cases, the development of armor up to the level of the full plate harness makes sense with that ruleset.

Similarly, in rulesets where armor is damage resistance, it makes sense for best armors to evolve to whatever level is needed to keep the wearer safe from anything short of a critical hit and still allow for reasonable mobility. Depending on what magic can do versus weapons that very well could be full plate.

Conversely, if that level is impossible to achieve with full armor (advances in gunpowder weaponry in real life, powerful battle magic in fantasy) then you'll start to see armor coverage decline in favor of thickening the armor on vital areas (i.e. head and torso) to at least keep those protected. Once that's impossible you'll start to see armor use fall of entirely (so at least you've got mobility instead of neither adequate protection nor mobility) until defensive technologies can catch up to the offensive abilities of the weapons.

If magic bypasses how armor works in those systems completely then you'll probably see a compromise between reasonable protection from weapons and mobility to evade spells with the balance point being how common combat magic is. If every squad has combat spellcaster who can let loose a dozen firebolt per minute then personal armor will probably be pretty light; enough to protect your vitals from weapons and shrapnel the magical explosions are producing. If instead you might see only a single combat spellcaster in an entire field army and their spells are on the order of 2-3 big fireballs lobbed at enemy formations before they're out of juice thenarmor choice will largely ignore spellcasting as getting hit with it is more akin to an act of God; it really sucks if you're in the unit the spellcaster lobs it at, but you're 99% more likely to be hit by another guy's spear, arrow, sword (likely multiple times a battle) so protect what you can and pray for what you can't.

It all depends on how magic functions.

Quote from: Omega;1042365This is an interesting one to me as up till recently when I saw a video demonstration of various armours I had not really thought on it and then realized that there was a certain pattern from one campaign to the next. Watching the video I was rather surprised at just how darn good scale mail is and the fact that even fairly basic studded leather is pretty effective.

That being that overall I tend to have a sort of cut off point in most campaigns at around chainmail. With scalemail being probably the most common of the "upper tier" protection. Top end being the rare suits of splint/plated mail. Full plate might as well have not existed. I think because it just did not fit the sorts of settings I usually run. Which very often lean to the mid-fantasy or even the low fantasy side. Especially in D&D.

So what sorts of armour in a fantasy setting do you allow as a DM or have seen as a player? Do you have, or have seen, a cut off point and why?

While working on a Dungeon World fighter variant, I looked into armor because for some reason the game just has: leather/mail (they both weight and cost the same, and provide equal protection), scale, and plate. I'd already known for awhile that studded leather probably didn't exist, and just now I couldn't find anything on it so I'm guessing it definitely didn't exist.

I took what I learned into my D&D hack (also learned that longswords are just swords/arming swords, and greatswords are longswords), which has in order of general effectiveness: leather, brigandine, mail shirt, lamellar, scale, mail, laminar, chain and plate, and plate. I saw a video talking about why leather wouldn't be ideal and how a gambeson is just as good if not better, so decided to swap them. Haven't seen an armor comparison video, which would be great because I'm not sure how some armor types stack up (especially brigandine).

Quote from: Ewan;1042526100 lbs plate?


Whoa, that is heavy stuff!

Is this a fantasy style choice or is the armor supposed to be primitive and heavy compared with Late Medieval /Renaissance plate?



Or is it like ultraheavy stuff meant for tournaments and not real fighting?

Thats the bundled weight. From personal experience I can tell you that a 50lb chain coat, (well it was a coat on me!) doesnt feel that heavy because the weight is distributed when worn. Weights of armours can be deceptive as people keep forgetting that weight distribution is the key. And fitting! An ill fitting suit can be cumbersome in various ways where it would not otherwise.

Quote from: Ewan;1042526100 lbs plate?

That was it was in the version Swords & Wizardry SRD I used as a base. But now that you pointed out it out I am going to drop it to 70 lbs to match the current version. It could be argued that it was lighter but that with well tempered steel. This represent the "average" suit of plate a knight would commission.

Sure. I'm not a big fan of the way Third Edition Nerfs medium and heavy armor. That is I don't think that a professional Fighting Man wearing a suit properly fitted should be at any hindrance in melee. If he has a very high dexterity then he ought to get the benefit of it. Of course Masterwork and Magic can allow that. I might go a bit further and reduce the associated penalties of plate with a note that the ordinary penalties or caps do apply to armor that you just loot off enemies because it's not fitted for you.

Oh and I am using my and it's voice typing capability, in case you were wondering about the odd capitalization. I'll get desktop internet access tomorrow fingers crossed.

Quote from: estar;1042567That was it was in the version Swords & Wizardry SRD I used as a base. But now that you pointed out it out I am going to drop it to 70 lbs to match the current version. It could be argued that it was lighter but that with well tempered steel. This represent the "average" suit of plate a knight would commission.

Cool. I'm glad that my comment was helpful.  I don't know if the estimates of lower weights for plate harness include the weight of the aketon or gambeson worn underneath.  So yeah 70 lbs sounds great to me. Perfectly gameable.

Quote from: Omega;1042561Thats the bundled weight. From personal experience I can tell you that a 50lb chain coat, (well it was a coat on me!) doesnt feel that heavy because the weight is distributed when worn. Weights of armours can be deceptive as people keep forgetting that weight distribution is the key. And fitting! An ill fitting suit can be cumbersome in various ways where it would not otherwise.

It all about proper straps and belt. The main issue with armor is not flexibility or as you said the weight. The main issue is fatigue. Even probably sized, belted, and strapped; it wearying carrying that much weight around. But if you are in good condition and don't have to run the equivalent of a marathon, you can wear it all day if you have too. But if the target bolts and you have to give chase without a horse, if you don't catch right away he going to outlast you in terms of endurance.

I worn armor as part of LARPS and SCA (medieval enactment). As far as LARPS go where you generally wear armor all the time,  you start your first few events way over armored. Then learn what you actually need and shed the excess. You may sacrifice a bit of protection but you will strike a happy medium between protection, endurance, and comfort.

Well if you're running D&D and there's no plate armor then I expect shields will be a popular choice for Fighters and two-handed weapons correspondingly less popular. This feels right given that heavily armored fighting men carried  shields until pretty late, historically speaking, when full suits of plate armor were available --at least to those who could afford them. I'm thinking primarily of Europe of course.

Quote from: Ewan;1042526100 lbs plate?


Whoa, that is heavy stuff!

Is this a fantasy style choice or is the armor supposed to be primitive and heavy compared with Late Medieval /Renaissance plate?



Or is it like ultraheavy stuff meant for tournaments and not real fighting?

I'm OK with the heaviest armor meant for real fighting, just from horseback. I recall stories about knights in full plate being lifted onto their steeds with a crane (I'm sure the history experts here know more).

Quote from: Omega;1042561Thats the bundled weight. From personal experience I can tell you that a 50lb chain coat, (well it was a coat on me!) doesnt feel that heavy because the weight is distributed when worn. Weights of armours can be deceptive as people keep forgetting that weight distribution is the key. And fitting! An ill fitting suit can be cumbersome in various ways where it would not otherwise.

100 lb. is still REALLY high for field plate. 40-60 lb. with good weight distribution is more realistic based on historical evidence.

Another factor to consider is "travelling" vs. "field" armor. Full plate is not something a knight donned while just traveling from place to place; even if there might be robbers on the road; it was simply too hot and stuffy for that. It only got donned when combat was known to be about to occur (such as on the field of battle).

In other words field plate is NOT something your typical dungeon-delver and wandering murder hobo would ever typically wear. If you have to wear armor all day long it's going to be lighter, more breathable and probably something you can don and doff yourself. Gambesons, brigandine vests and coats, mail shirts and hauberks, and breastplates are what your wandering heroes are typically going to be adventuring in.

You'd probably also see more use of shields since they're lighter than most suits of armor, can be carried on the back and readied quickly and provide good protection for those trained in them without being too hot or stuffy. A shield is never going to be as protective as a full plate harness and using one means you can't effectively wield a true two-handed weapon of war like a halberd, but the trade offs for a traveling adventurer are more than worth it.