Quote from: Headless;877942Hopefully I have made the question clear.  It may be one that doesn't have an answer beyond, good players and practice.

Sorry, no.  I don't have any idea what you are asking.  

Quote from: Headless;878011Here a perfect example of what I am trying to get at, stolen from a different thread.

"...watched one of my 7th level parties escape what I thought for sure was an airtight deathtrap they had earned through poor choices. "

The question is how to know as a DM whether they have earned the death trap through their poor choices.  Or been forced into it through lack of options/information.

There's no way anyone else can answer that question since none of us know what actually happened in the game to lead to that point.  Only the person who said that can answer those questions.

Quote from: nDervish;878139In an earlier response the OP indicated that he's distinguishing "deceiving them as the DM" from "deceiving them as an NPC"

True. But Unless we are talking about the GM fudging, I don't know what the GM lying to the players even means, other than having NPCs lie.

Asen used the example of giving the players/PCs an inaccurate map. But that isn't, in my view, lying to the players. That is the GM giving the players the information that their PC has. It's the same as telling a player "you hear nothing" when the PC's listen roll at the door has failed. That's not lying. That's giving the player the information their PC truly possesses.

I agree with the rest of what you said. I just don't know what the OP means by the DM lying.

Quote from: Bren;878166True. But Unless we are talking about the GM fudging, I don't know what the GM lying to the players even means, other than having NPCs lie.

Asen used the example of giving the players/PCs an inaccurate map. But that isn't, in my view, lying to the players. That is the GM giving the players the information that their PC has. It's the same as telling a player "you hear nothing" when the PC's listen roll at the door has failed. That's not lying. That's giving the player the information their PC truly possesses.

I agree with the rest of what you said. I just don't know what the OP means by the DM lying.

Well, I assumed that's what the OP means under "deceiving the players as the universe or about what they senses say". If he's not talking about that, he'd need to correct me:).

The other possibility is he says "Referee lying" if the Referee does the "moving bandit ambush" trick or similar, but I didn't think of that when replying;).

Thanks for your help. Many of your responses were quite insightful.  I think perhaps my philosophy back ground is polluting my question.  This might be a "What is the nature of knowledge" type thing. I didn't think so to start, if I did I wouldn't have posted it.


A couple of people mentioned "the talk."  I think that means laying out the assumptions so we are all playing the same game.  Easy to do when it's 'we are playing d&d 3.5 dungeon crawl, except no monks, and this one thing from path finder....." Much harder to do when it's.  'This is the way I communicate.'  

We don't even know the way we communicate.  When someone explains they communicate differently we can hear them but we don't understand.  And we don't know we don't understand.  

I am pretty sure the last paragraph will not make sense to some people.  Fair.  Again no need to tell me our group sucks at role playing.  Actually no need to respond at all.

Quote from: Headless;878207Thanks for your help. Many of your responses were quite insightful.  I think perhaps my philosophy back ground is polluting my question.  This might be a "What is the nature of knowledge" type thing. I didn't think so to start, if I did I wouldn't have posted it.

Wouldn't the answer to that also be a form of knowledge, and thus it should contain itself in an infinite loop:p?
And if anything, it looks like your improv background is being more of a problem in formulating your question.

All that said, can you at least confirm or deny whether I understood your previous statement that confounded Bren, or whether I've replied to something you didn't mean;)?

Quote from: nDervish;878139When I GM, I take it as my job to tell the players, "Here's a snowy hill with a bunch of trees on it.", then let them find their own path through the trees, while the trees all stay right where they were to start with.  Because that's what trees normally do.

Whether the PCs end up hitting a tree, dodging away from one at the last minute, or never go anywhere near a tree doesn't particularly concern me because I'm not trying to tell a story, I'm just letting the situation develop naturally in response to the PCs' actions.

Of course, most players are going to burn down the trees anyway.

Quote from: Tod13;878225Of course, most players are going to burn down the trees anyway.

But we need some light for the night ski.

It's not the DM's job to make you hit a tree.

It's the DM's job to make a ski resort and let you loose on it and then you just do what you want.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;878232It's not the DM's job to make you hit a tree.

It's the DM's job to make a ski resort and let you loose on it and then you just do what you want.

Exactly.

Quote from: Headless;877942Or I guess I could call this thread the inscruitible railroader.

It may seem like I am complaining about my DM, I'm not just describing a situation to illustrate a meta question.  

So if you do any improv games you will learn that just about the only rule is "don't block". Blocking is when someone starts a secean and you say no.  "So I was going to the store the other day and met a dragon" "no, that's stupid."  Blocking, don't do it.

I am currently in a group that has serious blocking issues.  We are figuring it out.  I am pretty sure that for the PCs the rule about blocking should be don't do it.  I don't know exactly what that means when you want to do plan A and some one else wants to do plan B but that's not my question.

I have found myself blocking the DM a couple of times.  Currently my fictional character doesn't want a NPC to marry his fictional sister also an NPC.  I would have to go do a side quest to make it happen.  I have been saying I 'm not going to do it.

Blocking.  Also player agency.  

This whole situation makes sense inside the story.  Of course A, then B, then C, and now this impending Marrage D.  But inside the story X, Y, then Z also make sense.  All of which are bad.  So my character wants to block the Marrige to avoid XYZ. the DM isn't making me do this mission, but there are no other options offered.  

I've decided to do the side quest.  This seems to be the way the DMwants the story to go so I will be a good improv player and go with.  Totally meta, and Meta gaming is bad, but let's tell the story the DM is trying to tell.

A friend suggested it was like skiing.  I have 360 degrees of choice for direction, but only the down hill ones advance the story.  If I try to go up hill I am blocking and being a pill.  But I see a big tree in front of me and minor changes in direction don't seem to be steering me around it.   I can see a possible future where we ski straight into the tree, and the DM asks why we hit it, leaving us to scream "you were steering!"

That's the situation.  Please no advice on that.  This isn't a complain about the DM thread though it must seem like it up til now.  

The question is advice for me as a DM.  It's our job to put trees in front of our skiers.  And when they dodge it, move it back in front of them so it's a challenge.  But we don't want them to hit it, just dodge at the last minuet.

It's a problem of clues.  Telling our players, "that didn't work but keep trying" when they need to keep trying, and "you are barking up the wrong tree, move it along" when there is nothing to find.  But we can't say that it stops being fun.

How can we have our NPCs deceive them with out deceiving them as the DM?  Send them on the super weapon treasure hunt as the bad guy in disguise, with out them turning the weapon over to him in the last session and wondering why the world ended.     Does my DM need me to do the side quest to move the story along, or does it just make sense for the characters inside the story to insist I go.  How is he to tell me, and should I even be able to figure it out?


Hopefully I have made the question clear.  It may be one that doesn't have an answer beyond, good players and practice.

OK,this is a great example of why I prefer role-playing games over storygames. My Players and their characters are not there to act out the story in my head, they are there to create the actions which will result in a story once the game has been played.

Quote from: Headless;877942OP

Try Roleplaying

Quote from: Baron Opal;878015It seems that your question is "how do I ensure that negative consequences are the result of poor decisions or luck on the players part rather than poor refereeing on my part?" With a side of "I'm aware of this acting tool which improves improv. As gaming seems a lot like improv, how do I use it correctly?"

Is that correct?

Yes.  You understand what I am asking.  100% perfect in both statements.  Now I will quibble.

In theatre improv games you can't block, it just ends it.  It makes it no fun.  It's also a power grab by the blocker, same as all those eye role characters from the poll also on the front page (which is missing the chaotic stupid option)

Role playing is a form of improv.  It's also group problem solving.  In improv you can't block, in group problem solving you need to reject the unsuited solutions.  I see a tension there.  




My other problem is getting a read on my DM. I find him inscruitible.  You can't help me with that part.

Depends on the improve RP really. And I've done a-lot.

What you call blocking others refer to as powergaming or godmodding. Its near universally seen as a bad thing.

But it seems you are ascribing some things that are not powergaming to this.
And if theres a DM driving the RP then it isnt really improv anymore as the DM is calling the shots or overseeing. Or should be.

The main rules we work under in the improv groups I play with are.
Dont pose for someone elses character.
Dont pose unavoidable actions.
Dont abuse use of NPCs and the environment.
Dont ignore the agreed on setting.

Others have different views. But what else is new.

What is the role of the DM in your sessions and is there any actual game mechanics in use or is it pure improv?

Role-playing games are not improv.  The DM' s job includes selectively blocking things the players throw out there that do not fit the milieu.  

The DM is in charge of the game, so I am not sure how a player even could block him (assuming a traditional DM-players structure *).  The DM can have whatever they want happen whenever they want.  'Tis the game.

Here are the options you have:

1.  You showed up to either play the game or not.  The DM says this marriage must happen and you must do the quest to make it happen.  If you want to game, do the quest.

2.  Test the DM' s bounds and see what happens.  Make an impassioned plea to your sister not to marry the dude.  Purposefully fail the quest.  Come up with your own goals and pursue them.  DM might get pissed and refuse you doing what you want.  DM might hit a blank wall with no idea what to do next, effectively stonewalling the game.  DM might well with it and have a fun session.  The important part is to not wait for the DM to give you a quest, make your own.

3.  Have a frank discussion with the DM either one on one or with the group.

4.  Walk away from the game.

5.  Offer to DM yourself.

*  As a side note, a buddy and I sometimes play in a style that is similar to improv.  We each make a PC and share DMing duties.  Since we both have DM editorial authority, gentleman's agreement that we both must accept whatever the other throws out there and riff off it, no blocking the other DM.  If this is similar to how you are playing, it is not the traditional rpg structure, and advice will be significantly different.

Quote from: Old One Eye;878338Role-playing games are not improv.  The DM' s job includes selectively blocking things the players throw out there that do not fit the milieu.  

The DM is in charge of the game, so I am not sure how a player even could block him (assuming a traditional DM-players structure *).  The DM can have whatever they want happen whenever they want.  'Tis the game.

It can happen. DM pitches a game about hunting a dragon, game starts, PC immediately rejects the quest hook and decides to go gardening.

But generally as long as it isn't bossing PCs around too much it's not "blocking."