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Author Topic: Impotent Powers and Stilborn Plans  (Read 2304 times)

Melinglor

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Impotent Powers and Stilborn Plans
« on: May 26, 2007, 08:12:08 PM »
I've been noticing an odd phenomenon in my D&D Campaign. The group's at a pretty low level, but with increased XP rewards, so as to experience relatively quick growth and an array of power levels. We started at Level "2 1/2" (4500 EX), and the party's now level 3.

So what I'm noticing is this: the PCs nearly always make their saving throws, but often fail on attack rolls or skill checks. Like, I'll be poring through the Monster Manual for interesting encounters, and going, "Cool! the Satyr charms travelers with his pipes, that'll be a fun and interesting event." And then the Satyr uses the Charm Person effect on the pipes (the one that the MM thinks is worth doubling the CR for), and EVERYONE saves. Hell, it's only DC 13, so not surprising. Then ditto the Ghost's devastating gaze or whatever, ditto the Dryad's Deep Slumber and Suggestion, and so on, and so on.

Then on the other side of things, the players often miss on their attack rolls. Which is, y'know, they're level 3 and a, sure, but it doesn't feel too heroic when ocer and over again it's whiff, whiff. I tryto describe it well, like "You and the wolf are a tangle of blade and fur and claws, and you just can't land a solid blow." But it starts to wear. And then when someone has a plan, like "I'll try to talk to them and get them on our side!" and they fail their Diplomacycheck, it's once again deflating.

All this has the effect that we're telling a story of cool things that almost happened. The cool thing inherent in the PC's action or the monster's power doesn't actually manifest itself in the fiction. Nobody's going to tell the story of "that time when the Satyress totally charmed Hung out into the forest for a frenzied love tryst and we had to get him back." Instead it's "That Satyress who, I guess, in theory, COULD have charmed someone, but it didn't work on us." Or "That time when our Druid might just have manifested his awesome Nature Powers to calm down the wolves that were attacking us, but it didn't work." Which just feels kinda lame.

In a "real" story, this would never happen. Obi-Wan would never fail to mypnotize the Stormtroopers. Han Solo would never fail to get the Hyperdrive kicked in in time to ditch the Imperials. At least, not the first time. In Empire, Han does indeed have quite some difficilty losing his pursuers, and indeed keeping his ship flying at all. That's fine. Tension, Setbacks, Complications. . .these are all great storytelling tools. But it strikes me that the first time a cool and defining thing happens in a story, it generally works. It has to. Or else that first impression is gonna stick and you're gonna be telling "The story about that Smuggler Guy who can't even outrun a bunch of Imperial Cruisers."*

I can only think of a couple of games that address this. Wushu, from what I've heard, employs a system of "everything you say happens, you just don't win the fight until the pacing mechanics tell you so." And Capes does this as well: Not only doyou not narrate the resolution of a conflict ("Kill Spider-Man") until the mechanics tell you it's decidin' time, but when you narrate individual actionsyou're free to describe your super-cool awesome maneuver in full and triumphant detail--only, if you're not ahead on the conflict, your opponent gets to narrate a reversal. So like: "Dr. Doom  throws the switch and Reed is bathed in black energy. 'All your simplistic planning did not account for the effect of my Quantum Nega-Ray, Richards!'" THEN: "As the beam saps his strenght, Reed simply mouths, 'now, Sue.' The invisible Mrs. Richards hits the shutdown switch and surrounds Doom in a force bubble. 'As always, Victor, you forget the Fantastic Four are a team,' Reed replies."

See, it's fine if the effect is countered or dispelled. But it's a crappy story if the effect doesn't exist in the first place, is negated right out of the gate. Of cours that's exactly what you would want as a real person. But it's death for a story. When your opposition's powers are impotent, they start to look like incompetents, no real threat. And when the heroes' efforts consistently fail, they start to feel like bumbling fools themselves.

Thoughts? Objections? Solutions?

Peace,
-Joel
 

C.W.Richeson

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Impotent Powers and Stilborn Plans
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2007, 08:46:09 PM »
Most so called "story games" coming out of the small press movement deal with this by defining the conflicts and then spurring them towards and interesting resolution.  Even stuff with a somewhat more traditional format, such as PDQ (Truth & Justice) allows everyone to bring into play defined qualities that interest the folk, which makes it much more likely the nifty powers of the described monsters will really have a nifty effect in game.

I think what you've described can happen with many games but you've just run into a string of unfortunate rolls (in that the interesting stuff didn't quite happen).  I'm not sure of a solution for this other than offering Action Points (if you use APs) in return for players choosing to fail an interesting save - perhaps several in some cases.  That way the neat stuff could happen and the players could fill up their APs to beat down the threat with successful melee attacks and such.
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Kyle Aaron

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« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2007, 09:22:14 PM »
Just fudge it and let them win despite their crap dice rolls. That's the old-fashioned way.

Even Gary Gygax said he only rolled the dice behind the screen because he liked to hear the clatter.
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« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2007, 02:45:04 AM »
Monsters out of the MM are not optimised. Their feats are not generally chosen to maximise the effectiveness of their abilities. For example, almost every monster has "Alertness". Start using "Ability Focus" and other feats you can find to augment their abilities rather than just sticking with the automatically selected feats. It'll make a big difference in how many of the monsters fight, how tough they are, and how often they can pull off neat shit.

In regards to skill checks, start handing out circumstance bonuses. You might want to create a generic piece of kit called "skill kit" that gives a +2 circumstance bonus to a single skill (Healer's Kit, Climber's Kit and Disguise Kits are examples of specific implementations of this idea already in the rules). Circumstance bonuses all stack with one another.

Also, familiarise your PCs with the "Aid Another" action. At low levels, it increases the effectiveness of PCs quite a bit, since "Aid Another" actions stack.
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Claudius

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« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2007, 05:39:00 AM »
The problem with D&D (and one of the reasons why I don't like it) is that low level characters are rather incompetent, and at high levels they become absurdly competent.

I would use a RPG that allows me to tailor the level of competency however I want. For example, in Ars Magica, you could have designed the satyrs and their powers however you like. What's the satyr got to score in order to charm the PCs? 8? 7? Decide it yourself, and you've got it.

Of course, you might have other priorities. You could use Wushu, Capes, or a similar game, but they work differently. From what you say, there's no possibility of failure, you'll eventually succeed. Some people like that, others don't.

Mind you, I haven't read Wushu or Capes, so maybe what I think of them is wrong.
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Claudius

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« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2007, 05:44:10 AM »
Quote from: JimBobOz
Just fudge it and let them win despite their crap dice rolls. That's the old-fashioned way.

Even Gary Gygax said he only rolled the dice behind the screen because he liked to hear the clatter.

I have a definite dislike for fudging. If I knew my GM is fudging rolls, the illusion, my suspension of disbelief, would be broken. I'd feel that what my character can and can't do depends entirely on the whims of the GM. And this is something I don't like at all.
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Greentongue

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« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2007, 12:58:10 PM »
I picked up a copy of Mythic and it has an interesting mechanic called Chaos.  In effect it shifts the over all odds based on the game trend.  In your case, the odds would be shifted to better the chances of successes initially.  As the story progresses, the Chaos factor floats as needed to propell the story.

You may want to consider adding something like this mechanic to your games as a "Story Arc" or "fudge" factor.  As a stated mechanic, it doesn't need to be hidden from the players.
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James McMurray

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« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2007, 02:28:54 PM »
What's the party makeup? A 3rd level character with a non-favored will save and a wisdom of 14 has a +3. That's a 50/50 chance on the satyr's save. That same character with a good BAB, masterwork weapon, and 14 strength has a +6 to hit. He should hit the satyr on a 9 or higher.

It sounds to me like their luck (or your memory of it) tends to favor them defensively. There's not really a lot you can do about that that doesn't involve cheating (or fudging if you prefer that term) because if you up the challenge and their luck swings the other way you've got a TPK on your hands.

It sounds to me like D&D isn't the game for you. If you're looking to tell "an exciting story" instead of watching one unfurl you may want to switch to a game designed to do that.

Abyssal Maw

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« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2007, 06:11:14 PM »
Quote from: Melinglor
I've been noticing an odd phenomenon in my D&D Campaign.
...
Then on the other side of things, the players often miss on their attack rolls. Which is, y'know, they're level 3 and a, sure, but it doesn't feel too heroic when over and over again it's whiff, whiff. Thoughts? Objections? Solutions?

-Joel


This is where skilled play comes in.

On average, the miss factor for an average party against an equal CR opponent is usually around 1 out of 3. (this is my completely unscientific estimate). Most parties can still win handily, but they'll miss a lot.

 Skilled players will find a way to minimize this to the point that they almost never miss, or use tactics that help the other team members hit. They'll use buffs, team tactics, flanks, layered reach weapon formations... The suggestion to 'Aid Other' is a buff that anyone in the party can do.  

Although some of this obviously depends on miniatures.

Here's an example:

Adventuring party:
(ncluding a bard, a sorcerer, a fighter, and a cleric.)
 
They are attacking an ogre (or something).

Typical party:
They all attack. Let's say the fighter hits. And maybe the sorcerer hits with a magic missile.  They do around 12 damage total per round. The bard and the cleric stay close by to heal the fighter, and the bard shoots his shortbow.

They are still going to win, but it's going to be a bit slower, and there will be misses.

Skilled party:
The bard uses Inspire courage and buffs the entire party (if he's got Inspirational boost he casts that first as a swift action and doubles the buff to +2/+2). The sorcerer casts an Enlarge person (via scroll) on the fighter. The fighter is armed with a two-handed weapon and heavy armor. The cleric has a longspear.  They set up so that the fighter is in front, with the cleric behind, using the longspear safely. The cleric, instead of attacking, can just aid-other (giving the fighter an extra +2.) My group calls this a layered reach formation. If at all goes to hell, the cleric can always heal the fighter, because they are right next to each other.

First round, the fighter probably does the same damage alone as the entire party did in the 'typical' example with the extra +2 from the bard. He's also got +4 to hit from the combination of the cleric and the bard.

1 round later, the fighter enlarges to Ogre size, and can now go toe to toe with the ogre. His weapon damage multiplies up to at least 2d6 if not 2d8. Plus strength bonus (which also jumps up). The bard only has to sing one round, before he takes over secondary combat duties (or healing duties, or spellcasting), so maybe he 5' steps into the flank (or maybe he's got a reach weapon as well) and that gets another +2.

What are we up to, +6?

Well, if the fighter needs that +6, he's got it. If he doesn't need it, especially bad, he transforms as much as he can of that into power attack damage.

Meanwhile the sorcercer forgoes the magic missile and instead casts grease or even ray of enfeeblement to sap the ogres to-hit down a few notches. If the cleric feels like not adding in the aid-other (say the fighter is handling this quite well, but this is going to be a long combat..) he can try summoning something like a badger or a celestial dog to really ramp up the pressure on the ogre. Or he can use doom or bless to further alter the percentages in favor of the group.

If you go to GenCon, I recommend you take a second to watch a couple minutes of the D&D Open.
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Abyssal Maw

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« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2007, 06:15:41 PM »
Quote from: Melinglor

All this has the effect that we're telling a story of cool things that almost happened. The cool thing inherent in the PC's action or the monster's power doesn't actually manifest itself in the fiction. Nobody's going to tell the story of "that time when the Satyress totally charmed Hung out into the forest for a frenzied love tryst and we had to get him back." Instead it's "That Satyress who, I guess, in theory, COULD have charmed someone, but it didn't work on us." Or "That time when our Druid might just have manifested his awesome Nature Powers to calm down the wolves that were attacking us, but it didn't work." Which just feels kinda lame.



Peace,
-Joel



Also, you can totally make the charm thing work. have the Satyress follow around the guy invisibly and cast it from a hiding place. Eventually she'll hit.

Come on, people! The game isn't going to play itself!
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Thanatos02

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« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2007, 06:24:12 PM »
Pseudo and Maw beat me to it.
D&D has a lot of give, but you do have to jigger the system a bit to be successful. Actually, low level PCs can do really well against threats of their own level, especially since a lot of things you can just buy at a general store are actually useful at that stage.
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Kyle Aaron

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« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2007, 06:52:49 PM »
Quote from: Claudius
I have a definite dislike for fudging.
And I've a dislike of boredom.

I've a dislike of "a story of cool things that almost happened", which is how Melinglor described his campaign as it is. He describes is as, "it doesn't feel too heroic when over and over again it's whiff, whiff [...] It starts to wear. [...] it's once again deflating."

Not heroic, wearing, deflating. These are all descriptions of boredom.

If Melinglor can take some of the rules-oriented suggestions and make the game interesting for the players without fudging, then great! I think that's awesome. But if that doesn't work... Then it's time to fudge those little fucking dice.

Quote from: Claudius
If I knew my GM is fudging rolls, the illusion, my suspension of disbelief, would be broken. I'd feel that what my character can and can't do depends entirely on the whims of the GM. And this is something I don't like at all.
I've never understood why a set of arbitrary decisions made before a game - let's call them "the rules" - should be considered any more fair and reasonable than a set of arbitrary decisions made during the game - let's call them "GM whim." Now, "whim" is a pretty prejudiced way to describe it, as though the GM is incapable of making fair and reasonable judgments. But let's set that aside for the moment. What's the difference between "rules" and "GM whim"? Seems like the difference is trust.

You don't want things to depend only on the "whims of the GM" - why not? You don't trust your GM to make fair and reasonable decisions? I can certainly understand feeling that way about a GM. If the GM doesn't respond to my suggestions about their decisions being unfair and unreasonable, then I don't play with them again.

I once thought that perhaps people trusted rules over GM "whim" because you could read the rules, so they were entirely predictable. But then I noticed that the same people who prefer rules over GM whim also want all dice rolls to stand - "let the dice fall where they may." So much for predictability! Perhaps it's just player superstition - "if I'm rolling the dice, I'm in control, tell me what I need to roll before I roll it"?

I view the job of the GM, among other things, as making sure that the rules and the dice give fair and reasonable results. It's fair and reasonable that PCs will die, that PCs will fumble and get critical successes. It's not fair and reasonable that they'll succeed all the time with ease, nor that they fail all the time. Not only is it unfair and unreasonable, it's boring. And since the purpose of games is to have fun, there is no greater failure of a game than its being boring. The GM is there to make rulings on rules, in respect of the rules' consistency with other rules, and the rules' consistency with the ideas of the game world (eg, "no, there is no magic in this realistic post-apocalyptic world"). If one of the ideas of the game world is, "the PCs should not always fail, or always succeed," then it's only right that the GM should fudge the dice and rules to balance things out a bit.

Otherwise it's boring. Otherwise you're saying that a few hundred pages of sloppily-written, badly-edited, saucily-illustrated text and a few blocks of plastic are more important than the happiness of the people around the game table. Which would be silly. The rules are only a tool to help us have fun. They have no value otherwise. If that tool is not doing the job we want, then for our particular group it's a faulty tool, and it should be repaired or replaced, or its handling changed.

Again, if Melinglor can solve this problem by following the rules to the letter with the suggestions given here in this thread, that's great! That's certainly easier. But if not... well, fuck the dice. Fudge 'em.
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Wil

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« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2007, 07:07:53 PM »
I'm not sure about D&D solutions, but personally Wushu skews too far to the other side. Spirit of the Century seems to be a good compromise, where the players have options to help their plans come to fruition without being guaranteed success.

In SilCore, there are a couple mechanisms in place that help players out:

The first is the ability to expend XP to add dice to rolls.
The second is something similar to stunting on Exalted (get a bonus for a cool description).
Finally, if the final dice being rolled exceed the difficulty, no roll is required. This is a house rule.

So, a character can expend Emergency Dice to get extra dice on the roll, and pump the roll up enough to no longer need to roll.
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Kyle Aaron

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« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2007, 10:39:38 PM »
If fudging and GM whim were good enough for the original fatbeard himself, they're good enough for me :p
   Gygax on Fudging
In many situations it is correct and fun to have the players dice such things as melee hits or saving throws. However it is your [the GM's] right to control the dice at any time and to roll dice for the players. You might wish to do this to keep them from knowing some specific fact. You also might wish to give them an edge in finding a articular clue, e.eg. a secret door that leads to a complex of monsters and treasures that will be especially entertaining. You do have every right to overrule the dice at any time if there is a particular course of events that you would like to have occur. [...]

Now and then a player will die through no fault of his own [sic - it appears Gygax means player-character! Assume similar caveat for all following instances of "player"]. He or she will have done everything correctly, taken every reasonable precaution, but still the freakish roll of the dice will kill the character. In the long run you should let such things pass as the players will kill more than one opponent with their own freakish rolls at some later time. Yet you do have the right to arbitrate the situation. You can rule that the player, instead of dying, is knocked unconscious, loses a limb, is blinded in one eye or invoke any reasonable severe penalty that still takes into account what the monster has done. [...] There MUST be some final death or immortality will take over and again the game will become boring because the player characters will have 9+ lives each!

Troublesome players [may be dealt with, short of tossing them out, by] points of damage by "blue bolts from the heavens" striking the offender's head, or the permanent loss of a point of charisma (appropriately) from the character belonging to the offender.  
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Malleus Arianorum

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« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2007, 06:24:55 AM »
Quote from: Melinglor
In a "real" story, this would never happen. Obi-Wan would never fail to mypnotize the Stormtroopers. Han Solo would never fail to get the Hyperdrive kicked in in time to ditch the Imperials. At least, not the first time. In Empire, Han does indeed have quite some difficilty losing his pursuers, and indeed keeping his ship flying at all. That's fine. Tension, Setbacks, Complications. . .these are all great storytelling tools. But it strikes me that the first time a cool and defining thing happens in a story, it generally works. It has to. Or else that first impression is gonna stick and you're gonna be telling "The story about that Smuggler Guy who can't even outrun a bunch of Imperial Cruisers."
I drop my Mace as a free action and cast "Roleplay not rollplay."

It's your collective storytelling that's at fault. Let's say that the storm troopers on the death star have Han & co. surrounded. They burst through the door open fire but never actualy hit anyone. It's up to the PLAYERS to play up the excitement. They should excuse the stormtroopers lousy marksmenship by "leaping behind the controll panel" and "taking cover in the detention hall" and generaly acting like their lives are imperiled.

Later on, in the trash compactor scene, the players should shout, argue and act terrified, even though their characters are still a good five miniutes from being squished. They should shreak "Shut them down! Shut them ALL down!" instead of saying "On/off -- how hard can it be?"
 
Likewise when the Satyr uses her charms, it's up to you and the gang to interpret what happens. Did the characters narrowly escape peril? Let's sketch it out both ways.

Satyress: Come with me and I will show you a world of pleasure...
(Players all make their saves)
Hung:  Yes, you're everything I ever wanted... and more...
Dwarf:  Don't be a damn fool!
Cleric:  Pelor, have mercy!
Rogue: No Hung... (I grab his hand and look into his eyes) ...what about us?
Sorceress: So it WAS true! You said she was just searching for traps!

* * *

Satyress: (Bleating) I'm a bAAAAd girl!
(Players all make their saves)
Hung: (Bleating) Ewe are a skanky AAAAAAss hoe!
GM:  It's a half goat, not a half sheep so it's a "doeling" not a "ewe"
Dwarf: Come here "Doeling" and I'll "half" a piece of that...
Ranger: Gross. I kill it with an arrow. Natural twenty... confirmed. Let me guess.... no pants equals no pockets equals no treasure?
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