Quote from: Chris24601;1092317The net result is one where saves that are trivial for one PC are impossible for another; particularly at higher levels. And 5e still has enough save or lose effects that auto-failing means you might as well go make a fast food run since you're going to have plenty of time on your hands. Some allow you to roll every round, but when your save bonus is +1 vs. DC 22 and natural 20s don't automatically succeed... not even advantage will get you out before the duration is over.

Sounds like someone pines for the "I Win!" button. That any single character still struggles with some saves is a feature, not a bug; high level parties need to work together to defeat opponents with that high a DC. Or they should face that they're not that good and look for easier challenges.

There's a difference between "struggles" and "automatically fails." There's a difference between needing a 14+ on a d20 succeed (struggle... i.e. something that could be overcome with luck or advantage) and needing a 21+ on a d20 (nothing you do will affect the outcome). Why even bother wasting time with having the player roll if they need a 21+? Just tell them "you're automatically turned to stone. Go make a food run or something."

If anything is an "I Win" button it's the save structure as it currently exists. All the wizard has to do is fire off the right spell from his arsenal of choices against the opponent's worst save and because they're using their best ability score with proficiency to determine the DC they're practically guaranteed success.

It's 3e garbage rocket tag where whoever gets their save-or-suck off first wins.

ETA: This isn’t even a case of “doesn’t get better.” The PCs and monsters actually get worse against threats similar in power to your own as they level up. At first level having a -1 save against DCs being in the 11-14 range is a challenge. But at 17th level that save is still a -1 and the typical save DCs are now in the 19-21 range.

“Doesn’t get better” would be still needing a 12-15 on the die... now you need a natural 20 or can’t possibly save at all.

Quote from: Chris24601;1093051There's a difference between "struggles" and "automatically fails." There's a difference between needing a 14+ on a d20 succeed (struggle... i.e. something that could be overcome with luck or advantage) and needing a 21+ on a d20 (nothing you do will affect the outcome). Why even bother wasting time with having the player roll if they need a 21+? Just tell them "you're automatically turned to stone. Go make a food run or something."

If anything is an "I Win" button it's the save structure as it currently exists. All the wizard has to do is fire off the right spell from his arsenal of choices against the opponent's worst save and because they're using their best ability score with proficiency to determine the DC they're practically guaranteed success.

It's 3e garbage rocket tag where whoever gets their save-or-suck off first wins.

ETA: This isn't even a case of "doesn't get better." The PCs and monsters actually get worse against threats similar in power to your own as they level up. At first level having a -1 save against DCs being in the 11-14 range is a challenge. But at 17th level that save is still a -1 and the typical save DCs are now in the 19-21 range.

"Doesn't get better" would be still needing a 12-15 on the die... now you need a natural 20 or can't possibly save at all.

Wizards have an automatic win? You just met an opponent and you are that certain you know their worse save? It sounds like all of your character builds (your own characters and the ones you meet) are so stereotyped that anyone can judge their class and best save because of course they'd never have a Resilient feat. It's pretty rare for a player character to get over DC20 save difficulty (+5 for max ability score of 20, +6 proficiency at level 17; you'd need specific magic items to add to that DC; opponents could very well have the benefits from their magic items). I've played 4th tier (my druid made it to 20th level, and my rogue has seen play at 17th level) and I've not seen the problem you describe - those ongoing saves are often from concentration spells, and what I have experienced is that fourth tier play is dominated not by sucky saves but by battles of counterspells (and by better preparation; my druid survived Power Word Kill in a slightly weakened wild shape by having a Death Ward; thanks, cleric ally!). Get a bless spell or a magic item that improves that weak ability score, bring along a charismatic paladin and stay in their aura, bring diverse allies who can break spells or otherwise negate effects, and use strategy rather than dice to prevail.

I'd be amenable to a house rule allowing characters to spend hit points or hit dice to get a bonus on significant saves; I like resource management. But the big issue in old D&D was that "everybody always saves" so the wizards always used the damage spells - they scaled with level and you got at least 1/2 damage, and maybe 5e slightly overcompensates for that. But your complaints are just whiny.