Quote from: James McMurraySo when you plainly state that playstyles of editions don't differ, you're actually saying that you don't think people mean what they say?

I didn't say anything about play styles per se, I said Haffrung's statement wasn't true.

It's not true because the rules supporting play styles stuff is hogwash.

Clear enough?

Seanchai

Quote from: AosI haver decided to allow 4e to fuck my sister.

"Hell, I like you. You can come over to my house and fuck my sister."

Quote from: SeanchaiI didn't say anything about play styles per se, I said Haffrung's statement wasn't true.

It's not true because the rules supporting play styles stuff is hogwash.

Clear enough?

Seanchai

Clear, yes. Also utter garbage. Unless you don't think preferred power level of characters is a part of playstyle. I've agreed with you on many things, but on this one you're hilariously wrong.

Quote from: NicephorusDepends on the granularity of the conversation. At the basic level, D&D is mainly about exploring and fighting. I don't think that's changing. In all versions so far, you occasionally get beat up so much that you have to stop and rest for a while. What you're talking about is details like amount of healing per day. Yes, those things are likely to change. And the rate at which you go from schlub to go might change.  But I don't think the basics are going to change much.

I'm just talking about playstyles. That includes power level, what your characters do, how fast they level, preferred levels of realism, and pretty much everything else.

No, I don't think D&D has ever changed so fundamentally that it stopped being D&D. But to say that different editions don't support different styles of play is ludicrous.

Power level is all relative in a game anyway.  I dasn't think there is anything wrong with a party of 2nd level characters having a knock down drag out fight with a large band of goblins.  If the PC's are 'so powerful' so too, apparently, are the Gobbos.

Dragon? Probably over the top.

Then again, I've always had my beef with the D&D power curve. Seriously: Housecats are lethal to first level parties. How fucked up is that?

And you just know, I'm going to post an AP one day of a housecat mauling a group of first level characters. Probably as my fond farewell to the 3E days...

Heck, just about everything's relative. That doesn't mean you can't point to a measurable change over time.

Quote from: jgantsI think your EnWorld experience has led to brain fever, my dear holiday simian, for you clearly misinterpreted my post.  

The first part was using sarcasm.  I wasn't saying 10th level characters really would have powers like that; I was saying that in order to have a power curve that 10th level characters would have to have insanely high powerful abilities like that if the example we were given represented typical 2nd level characters (as tackling a mob of powerful goblins and a dragon without breaking too bad of a sweat is more akin to 7-9th level PCs in ye olde versions of (A)D&D).

Well...fine then. I dispute "half the party paralyzed by fear and a PC death" being "without breaking too bad of a sweat", however.

QuoteAs to the second part, I do seriously think that epic level characters in D&D 4e will be more powerful than BD&D immortals.  Immortals weren't that high powered in the grand scheme of things.

Sadly, my sole experience with Immortals is the MGP Classic Play book of the same name (flavorful, at least), and they seemed rather impressive. I never had more than the red box of that branch.

QuoteIt looks to me like D&D is going to flatten the curve a bit - with more front-loaded abilities and the potential for more powers later (more similar to the way the Palladium/Rifts system handles character power levels).

It occurs to me that they once stated the 1-30 level tree of 3e would replicate the "sweet spot" of levels 7-13 in 3e. I'm now beginning to wonder how much of that meant "math" and how much of that meant "badassery".

Quote from: James McMurrayUnless you don't think preferred power level of characters is a part of playstyle.

No, I don't. Again, I think "play styles" are largely people telling themselves that they're special, different, or even quantifiable, really.

Seanchai

Quote from: AosI haver decided to allow 4e to fuck my sister.

I have also decided to allow 4e to fuck your sister.

Quote from: SpikePower level is all relative in a game anyway.

And the playtest. When we playtested 3e, we were out to break it by building the most min-maxed character possible. Did the same with other playtests.

Seanchai

Quote from: SeanchaiNo, I don't. Again, I think "play styles" are largely people telling themselves that they're special, different, or even quantifiable, really.

Seanchai

Oh, ok. Might want to put a "I don't talk about the subject" in your sig or something. Save us honest folks the hassle of trying to communicate with you.

Quote from: James McMurrayOh, ok. Might want to put a "I don't talk about the subject" in your sig or something. Save us honest folks the hassle of trying to communicate with you.

Shrug. Why not put, "I'm a jackass when people disagree with me" in yours?

Seanchai

Quote from: SeanchaiShrug. Why not put, "I'm a jackass when people disagree with me" in yours?

Project much? You're the one presuming anyone who says different editions of D&D are better choices for particular styles of play is a fool or a liar. You believe people who disagree with you do so out of ignorance or dishonesty. So yeah, you're pretty much a jackass.

Quote from: Christmas ApeWell...fine then. I dispute "half the party paralyzed by fear and a PC death" being "without breaking too bad of a sweat", however.

D'oh - I totally glossed over the end of the paragraph where the PC died from the acid damage.  That makes it a little less high-powered than I was reading it, then.

Quote from: Christmas ApeSadly, my sole experience with Immortals is the MGP Classic Play book of the same name (flavorful, at least), and they seemed rather impressive. I never had more than the red box of that branch.

You didn't miss much.  The BD&D Immortals set was kind of a convoluted mess that didn't really fit in well with D&D IMO.  But at least it had the D20 w/ Tentacles monster (or whatever that was).

Quote from: James McMurrayHeck, just about everything's relative. That doesn't mean you can't point to a measurable change over time.

Putting aside the snark for the moment (I grow weary of the topics that dominate this site...I am reduced to sniping....:what: )

Consider 'Exalted': Powerful demigod roaming around smaking the living daylights out of creation, right?  I mean, much more powerful than any edition of D&D, no bones about it. Starting characters bitch slap minor Gods for fun, dude!

Only... not so much.  Given that the setting equivilent of Goblins (that is, a low level threat that works best, even at beginner levels, in large groups and STILL should be a managable threat...) can wipe out whole villages of 'NPC's' without even a scratch.  Once you start peeling away the fluff of what various things are (this is a goblin, that is a dragon, that over there? Yeah, that's a God...) mechanically, the threat to any given party is roughly the same, be it a OD&D game where having a vial of poison is gamebreakingly powerful, to 3e to fucking Exalted, man...  You still have little shits that jump you in large numbers and will probably be lucky to seriously threaten even one character, and you have big scary shit you seriously shouldn't mess with until you hit 'endgame'... We CHOSE to add descriptions to these threats that make them seem stronger or weaker (housecats...) but really, they are just mechanics scaled to provide a given level of comparative challenge within the system in use.

This even holds true for 'Superhero games'. All the fancy powers and colorful costumes are dressing for a given level of threat (either way... players can have a 'threat level' if you like...).

So yes: Power level IS entirely relative. I can make a '1st level dragon' out of a fucking orc.  Mechanically all that is really important is how much pain it dishes out and how much it can take, what I call it, as the GM, depends on me.

Obviously simplified but still true.