Quote from: James J SkachHaffrung's point, I believe, is that this ability to use the same rule set to play in almost diametrically opposed ways was true of BD&D and AD&D; however, while still present, it has been decreasing in subsequent versions.

But one of Haffrung's point was also that no one actually used the OD&D and AD&D rules sets. That being the case...

Seanchai

Quote from: SeanchaiWhich is why I don't need play styles. It's the folks trying to prove that 4e is objectively bad who do.

And who are those people?

Apparently he didn't read the rest of the post, or didn't care to as the context makes his comment a moot point.

Quote from: MeI don't know if Haffrung feels the same, but I will say that my concern is that this version might finally be the version where support for the non-super-heroic, non-cinematic style falls to a level where it's no longer valuable to those that prefer/lean towards/are most comfortable with that style.

And I don't (nor do most I've seen) have an objective problem with that. For me, it's more melancholy at getting old, finding you're no longer the one marketers worry about (damn kids!), and some slightly more specific concerns over the dreaded network externalities I'll be losing. But hey, that's life!

Quote from: HaffrungWho you callin' we, paleface.

*snip a bunch of shit*.

See, you are making some weird assumptions here.

First of all, I never played modules, and I didn't get into D&D any later than you did developmentally. So trying to shape this as some weird map vs. story bullshit doesn't fly with me. I'm not there to tell a story any more than anyone else is. I'm there to be a badass with a sword or what have you.

Secondly: I believe that a grown man in the prime of his youth (that is to say 16-20, 1st level high school student character territory) should be able, PARTICULARLY with weapons and armor be able to face down a single angry wolf.  Hell, I'm confident that when I was 18 you could toss me into a pit naked with a lone angry wolf and I'd come out the winner. Maybe bleeding quite a bit and just as pissed at you as the wolf was at me, but the winner.

So the idea that at any time  ANY TIME in your adult life, particularly if you plan on being an adventurer of some sort, you could not seriously challenge a single wild animal that is half your body weight in a fair fight, much less an unfair fight (you know, having weapons and shit), you need to go back and continue to be food for the morlocks you pansy peice of shit.

Then again, my ancestors tell tales of children killing bears with flintlocks to protect themselves or their siblings.  A bear is quite a bit nastier than a wolf.

CHILDREN.

And you want 'adventurers' to struggle to bring down a wolf in a group?

Not buying it.

Sell that shit to someone else.

Quote from: Old GeezerApeshit.

Part of what made being a 9th level Lord so damn cool was knowing you came from there.

It's the same reason Parzifal is a much better character than Galahad.  Parzifal fucks up royally and loses it all, and has to rebuild from ground zero.  Galahad just has everything handed to him.

The more lowly you start, the more of a stud you are when you hit 10th level.

Agreed.  That's the hero's journey and hits many psychological buttons.  I prefer the modern democratized version where you don't need to be the son of a god or king to be a hero, but the journey is very much the same.  Maybe its just me, but I enjoy more that which I have to struggle to achieve than that which is handed to me.

QuoteThere is no cake.

The cake is a lie.
The cake is a lie.
The cake is a lie.
The cake is a lie.
The cake is a lie.

Quote from: SeanchaiYeah. If you're going to embarass yourself by posting pictures of crap in a thread a la TBP, at least post something cool...

Seanchai

So, now that this site has officially jumped over the shark and dove straight down into image macro hell, where's everyone going to post to now?

Quote from: J ArcaneSo, now that this site has officially jumped over the shark and dove straight down into image macro hell, where's everyone going to post to now?

In the snow, in nice yellow letters...

Quote from: J ArcaneSo, now that this site has officially jumped over the shark and dove straight down into image macro hell, where's everyone going to post to now?

Don't worry, it's not the site. Mostly just this thread. Those threads that are having rational discussions which don't require one side to declare half the gaming population unable to remember what kinds of games they played are still trundling along quite well.

Or don't believe that a stated preference is possible - to the point of accusing someone of "sell[ing] that shit."

Quote from: SpikeSee, you are making some weird assumptions here.

First of all, I never played modules, and I didn't get into D&D any later than you did developmentally. So trying to shape this as some weird map vs. story bullshit doesn't fly with me. I'm not there to tell a story any more than anyone else is. I'm there to be a badass with a sword or what have you.

Secondly: I believe that a grown man in the prime of his youth (that is to say 16-20, 1st level high school student character territory) should be able, PARTICULARLY with weapons and armor be able to face down a single angry wolf.  Hell, I'm confident that when I was 18 you could toss me into a pit naked with a lone angry wolf and I'd come out the winner. Maybe bleeding quite a bit and just as pissed at you as the wolf was at me, but the winner.

So the idea that at any time  ANY TIME in your adult life, particularly if you plan on being an adventurer of some sort, you could not seriously challenge a single wild animal that is half your body weight in a fair fight, much less an unfair fight (you know, having weapons and shit), you need to go back and continue to be food for the morlocks you pansy peice of shit.

Then again, my ancestors tell tales of children killing bears with flintlocks to protect themselves or their siblings.  A bear is quite a bit nastier than a wolf.

CHILDREN.

And you want 'adventurers' to struggle to bring down a wolf in a group?

Not buying it.

Sell that shit to someone else.

I'm sorry you feel that way Spike. Really, I am. I get what you're saying. And you make a good argument for your style preference. But it's just that - a preference.

I might not be talking about a person, or a group of people, struggling to bring down a wolf (btw, how is it that people get killed by bears?). But even if I were, who are you to say that it's not a valid choice?

I'm more and more convinced that it's not that people all play the same way, it's that everyone assumes everyone else is playing they way they play - or prefers to.

Quote from: James J SkachI might not be talking about a person, or a group of people, struggling to bring down a wolf (btw, how is it that people get killed by bears?).

Do you mean in games or in real life? In games it's because they're statted stronger than people. In real life it's because they're faster than they look, and claws backed with enough muscle that all it takes is one swipe. There's also the tendency for some fight-or-flight mecahnims to get stuck in a "Holy shit! It's a bear! What do I do?" loop.

QuoteI'm more and more convinced that it's not that people all play the same way, it's that everyone assumes everyone else is playing they way they play - or prefers to.

Projection is a powerful tool for self-validation.

Quote from: HaffrungAnd who are those people?

You know that I number you among them, so why are you being circumspect?

Seanchai

Quote from: James McMurrayDon't worry, it's not the site. Mostly just this thread. Those threads that are having rational discussions which don't require one side to declare half the gaming population unable to remember what kinds of games they played are still trundling along quite well.

It's not the thread or the site, but maturity level of the people posting pictures.

Let's be honest, repeatedly posting pictures of cats because you think the subject or arguments presented in the thread isn't remotely a mature response. It is, in fact, assinine and childish.

But at least you're honest. We now know this is the level of contribution we can expect from you in the future.

Seanchai

Quote from: James J SkachOr don't believe that a stated preference is possible - to the point of accusing someone of "sell[ing] that shit."

How, in the name of all that is holy, unholy, profane, divine or even Spoon, did I somehow become attached to this 'playstyles' debate in your mind? You've dogged me on it in two forums, James and I, to my mind, never once weighed in at all: for, against, or commenting from the peanut gallery! WTF man?

:confused:

Does my name look too much like someone elses?  Is there another pikachu running around sullying my posting history?  I mean, I KNOW I haven't been sleeping good, but I don't think that mean's I've started coming onto RPGsite late at night and wading into the craptacular slugfest that was the earlier portion of this thread while sleepwalking!

Let it go, man. I don't want to talk about wether or not playstyles exist.  I want to talk about the fact that a grown man in good health, regardless of his life expirences to that point should, or should not, be able to kill a wild animal that weighs some 75 lbs ,if it's well fed, by himself.

Not a 900 lb bear, though the evidence is in that YES it is POSSIBLE (not, by any means likely however) to do so.

The other James pokes fun at my Housecat rant, but seriously: If I want to play at that level I'll find a game about being a mouse, not a game where supposedly I can be a credible threat to a dragon.  

Never mind that somehow both Haffrung and John Morrow seem to think I have some agenda to tell stories ABOUT Conan and not just BE Conan at the table.   So tell me: Who the fuck is spreading all this horseshit about me? I've been posting here long enough and voluminously to not be an absolute stranger.  

Never mind, don't answer that. I'm just going to put my 'gaming stances' into my sig like I'm on some fucking dating site.

"Hi, I'm Spike. I like pretending to kill some shit with big hunks of metal. My preferred polygons are D11's, and I have never played in, or ran, a module adventure. I own the worlds largest dungeon, however, but my players got bored of being strangled to death by darkmantles.  Sometimes, when I GM, I kill players that annoy me. That's right, players. I am currently seeking conversations with other gamers that don't assume that I want a narrative flow out of my game. Pet peeves include being asked my opinion about wether or not Playstyles exist."

That ought to cover it.