Quote from: JaegerI was 3 at the time, but...
 D&D is the 800lb Gorilla - but what if something got in there before it really hit?

What game System+Setting do you think would have given AD&D a run for its money back in the day?

If it came out at the same time : Warhammer FRPG

Regards,
David R

I think that if Avalon Hill or SPI would have produced an rpg quickly after D&D came out, they would have been able to take the market away from TSR.  I know I resisted trying D&D simply due to my loyalty to AH games.  Because of that I bought AH's Magic Realm before I thought to buy D&D.  If that would have been a real rpg, AH would not have lost so many of their customers to TSR.

Ralph Bakshi insists that Star Wars coming out just a couple weeks after Wizards, elbowing it out of theaters is the reason he's not bigger than Disney now.

Just sayin'.

Ha. That's just sad.

Quote from: grubmanI think the OP meant 74

Yeah, I guess I was thinking, "If X came first, what would X have to be to challenge (A)D&D?"

D&D? Is that that northern-euro fantasy variant of Mazes & Minotaurs?

Quote from: stu2000Ralph Bakshi insists that Star Wars coming out just a couple weeks after Wizards, elbowing it out of theaters is the reason he's not bigger than Disney now.

Just sayin'.

Yeah, well Bakshi is a whiner - okay?

Wizards is good - but not that good.


- Ed C.


(Note to Ralph: Stop being so damn obvious with the rotoscoping!!!!
 Also , that over-use of stock footage that gets drawn or painted over?? It doesn't make you look artsy - it just looks like you got lazy or your drawing hand is hurting)

Quote from: KoltarYeah, well Bakshi is a whiner - okay?

Wizards is good - but not that good.


- Ed C.


(Note to Ralph: Stop being so damn obvious with the rotoscoping!!!!
 Also , that over-use of stock footage that gets drawn or painted over?? It doesn't make you look artsy - it just looks like you got lazy or your drawing hand is hurting)

That was actually Stu's Point, Ed. Your irony detector seems stuck lately.

-clash

That and Wizards is made out of suck. suck and stock footage, anyway.

Quote from: Age of FableActually, I just realised your hypothetical situation isn't hypothetical, it did happen in some non-English speaking countries: in Germany, das Schwarze Auge (a bit like a combination of Basic D&D and Tunnels and Trolls), and in Sweden Draker och Demoner (RuneQuest with a fair bit of D&D).

That's the type of thing I'm talking about.

Oh, and I do mean 79', the beginning of AD&D. I don't think I've ever personally seen brown or white box D&D.

Even today everyone agrees AD&D didn't have the most coherent rules-set.

 I think a fantasy game that was "Tolkienesque" With a modern designed rules that worked under a unified mechanic could have pulled an upset.

 The suggestion of the StarWars RPG was a good one - if a fantasy version of the system was put out at the same time, with a Middle Earth license, it might have done big things.

Or at least I think so. But I could be wrong.

Do any of you "old timers" think that D&D just had too big of a presence at that point to be toppled even back then?


.

(My cred: started with White Box no later than '77, eagerly bought AD&D as it came out over '78-'79.)

Yes, it had too big of a presence. It was a phenomenon in the wider culture. People knew what D&D was; they'd never heard of anything else. A while back I was searching a periodical database and came across a 1982 ad in the NYT for Twining's Tea. Samuel Twining writes in the ad,

QuoteThrough your lively response to Twinings advertising, you have taught me a good deal about how Americans like their tea.

How, for example, you frequently choose tea for your traditional American 'coffee break.' How people prefer it for gracious entertaining--and quiet moments. How you find that Twinings teas lend a certain elegance whenever they are served.

Why, I've even learned that a pot of Prince of Wales is the very thing for a game of Dungeons and Dragons™. Here I had thought it was my own private potion to dispel the doldrums of a dreary day!

(Aug. 8, 1982, p. SM49)

I also found articles about the D&D phenomenon in articles in the NYT as early as 1979.

I don't really think the game owed its success to the details of its rules. Personally I thought there were other games with better rules such as TFT, RQ (although RQ was too far from generic or Tolkienesque fantasy), and a little later, Dragonquest. D&D had good and bad points, but most important was that it popularized the concept of using some rules for what was, essentially, playing pretend, along with the idea of using a GM to allow flexible action ("you can do anything"). As a crusty old grognard, I can't help but note that the vast majority of people who flocked to RPGs in the late 70's were very different from us anal-retentive wargamers. They didn't care about rules, they cared about inspiration. AD&D had that; it was fundamentally simple in its core operation; much of the complication was in the form of special rules for specific spells, items, and monsters that would only be introduced on an as-needed basis. The incoherent bits didn't matter because the game was playable as a set of optional expansion rules for D&D, to be used or ignored as desired by the GM.

I started at around the same time Elliot, maybe 78. I dunno, blue box, red dragon. PHB came out not long after... I think.
And I completely agree.
I'd heard of D&D long before I played it. I didn't know wtf an RPG was but I did know that there was something called D&D and I wanted very badly to play it.  As much as I dug Star Wars back then, I was really all about wanting to be Bilbo*, and within seconds of seeing my friend's D&D box I knew it could happen.





*I know, I know. How fucking sad is that? I was like 11. Now, think about the geekiest thing you've ever wanted. Yeah, whose the dork now?

I actually have Prince of Wales (TM) in the kitchen.

Nobody will care to believe me, but that Deluxe Traveller box wowed me even more than D&D. Still does. So the real mystery to me is why Traveller didn't blow the Elves and Owlbears out of the water back then, and why to the present day I've been surrounded by ignoramuses who fail to see its resplendently ascetic beauty.

One can speculate. Why not jump in with both feet? Okay...

Let's not worry about Trav being a few years after D&D.

Why not Traveller?

1. Traveller isn't Star Wars. It isn't spiritual. It's capitalistic.
2. Traveller doesn't have nearly the unique snowflake potential of D&D. You are some dude. Your best years are behind you. You will not improve via increase in your personal ability, but by making money and buying stuff.
3. Ultimately Traveller is for grinds who enjoy procedural flowcharts and operations research.

My vote goes to The Shadow of Yesterday.
It is simple, you can do anything with it and it has an excellent setting.