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Author Topic: If It’s Fear, I Think People Need Therapy or Something  (Read 6216 times)

SHARK

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Re: If It’s Fear, I Think People Need Therapy or Something
« Reply #60 on: September 12, 2021, 08:52:39 PM »
No one who is posting to this thread has any complaint about "not enough time" when it comes to reading RPG rules.  Everyone here spends enough time posting on this board to read every rulebook ever written.

Greetings!

Yeah, I'm not buying any whining about "Reading rules to new games takes too much time!" Pour a good drink, put some headphones on with pleasant listening music on, open the book, and read it. People would be surprised how much reading they can get done in four hours--let alone six or eight hours. If necessary, devote the best part of Thursday through Sunday, and see how much gets done.

Having said that, reading, reading speed, comprehension, and proficiency, is a skill that improves with both time invested, practice, and effort. Once you get up to speed, it isn't too hard too master a 300-page rule book in a night or two.

And another thing, yes, while there are certainly some technical terms and jargon to learn when reading a rule book, the reading overall is fucking cheesecake. WOTC's rulebooks are written so easy that a 12-year old can easily comprehend them--no dictionary required. ;D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
"It is the Marine Corps that will strip away the façade so easily confused with self. It is the Corps that will offer the pain needed to buy the truth. And at last, each will own the privilege of looking inside himself  to discover what truly resides there. Comfort is an illusion. A false security b

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: If It’s Fear, I Think People Need Therapy or Something
« Reply #61 on: September 12, 2021, 09:08:51 PM »
I think this is more a human psychological problem of sinking more effort into something familiar but bad, then search for new possibilities rather than a time limit thing.

We are all guilty of this at one time or another.

Shasarak

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Re: If It’s Fear, I Think People Need Therapy or Something
« Reply #62 on: September 12, 2021, 10:03:16 PM »
No one who is posting to this thread has any complaint about "not enough time" when it comes to reading RPG rules.  Everyone here spends enough time posting on this board to read every rulebook ever written.

How do I fit all that rulebook reading in while still being able to post on this board?
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Steven Mitchell

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Re: If It’s Fear, I Think People Need Therapy or Something
« Reply #63 on: September 12, 2021, 11:20:39 PM »
No one who is posting to this thread has any complaint about "not enough time" when it comes to reading RPG rules.  Everyone here spends enough time posting on this board to read every rulebook ever written.

I read so many rules, I've lost count.  There's a difference, however, in people who post here and players in their games.  None of the other people in my groups even lurk on forums occasionally, let alone post in them.  Getting them to read anything game-related is time related.

DM_Curt

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Re: If It’s Fear, I Think People Need Therapy or Something
« Reply #64 on: September 12, 2021, 11:30:02 PM »
No one who is posting to this thread has any complaint about "not enough time" when it comes to reading RPG rules.  Everyone here spends enough time posting on this board to read every rulebook ever written.

I read so many rules, I've lost count.  There's a difference, however, in people who post here and players in their games.  None of the other people in my groups even lurk on forums occasionally, let alone post in them.  Getting them to read anything game-related is time related.
I've had a lot of those players:
Kids, spouses/SOs who are there with their gamer SO and the ever-present "beer-and-pretzel league".
Sometimes you just gotta tell them what die to roll, do the math in your head and tell them what happened.

therealjcm

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Re: If It’s Fear, I Think People Need Therapy or Something
« Reply #65 on: September 13, 2021, 01:15:19 PM »
No one who is posting to this thread has any complaint about "not enough time" when it comes to reading RPG rules.  Everyone here spends enough time posting on this board to read every rulebook ever written.

I start with the assumption that anyone interested enough in ttrpgs to post to an rpg forum is very likely a system wonk. Either interested in mechanics in their own sake, or at least not averse to learning a new system.

The difficult part is overcoming the fear of players who don't want to lose their existing system mastery. Every time you switch rules on such players the game becomes less fun because they have less control over their character.

You can try to lean into the problem of players not knowing the mechanics. I ran a superhero game for a couple years where the players built their characters by telling me what they wanted and never even saw their character sheets. It requires a lot of work to run such a game, but it worked really well for superhero genre emulation that players were never sure exactly what they were capable of. An easier option is to run a one shot with pre-gens. A fun one off with no stakes can overcome that fear of learning new mechanics too.

Greentongue

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Re: If It’s Fear, I Think People Need Therapy or Something
« Reply #66 on: September 13, 2021, 01:51:02 PM »
Is there something I missed where knowing more rules == having more fun?

From my experience, people that like rules mostly seem to like exploiting them more than just having a framework that emulates a genre.

Really, what purpose do rules serve? Besides how "the Imaginary world" is different from "the Real world".
Do you need a book to tell you that if you get hit by a sword, you will be hurt?
Yes, you need something to determine how many of those hits you can take but how complicated do you require?
Can't you trust the GM to let you know without referencing chapter and paragraph?

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: If It’s Fear, I Think People Need Therapy or Something
« Reply #67 on: September 13, 2021, 02:58:52 PM »
Is there something I missed where knowing more rules == having more fun?
Depends on the kind of fun. Being drunk and making dice towers could be way more fun then reading or following any rules or guidelines.

In my experience the case is if players have no idea what they can do (or reasonably expect they can do) they just stick around fidgeting awkwardly. And the GM experience effectively becomes playing with yourself:
'Err, what can I do to the dragon?'
'Cast a spell?'
'Can I do those?'
'Steven can'
'OK steve cast a spell then'
'OK....Uh...What spells do I have again?'
'Different kinds'
'.....Uh.....'
'.....Fireball?'
'OK I do fireball then'


I may as well play a videogame if I need to control everything my players do.

Squidi

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Re: If It’s Fear, I Think People Need Therapy or Something
« Reply #68 on: September 13, 2021, 04:43:09 PM »
I think this is more a human psychological problem of sinking more effort into something familiar but bad, then search for new possibilities rather than a time limit thing.
Dungeons and Dragons has been monetizing the Sunk Cost Fallacy for decades.

From my experience, people that like rules mostly seem to like exploiting them more than just having a framework that emulates a genre.
RPGs especially susceptible to minmaxing, but don't confuse that with "exploiting" the rules. In many ways, it is an exercise in mastering the rules and systems for efficiency and success. Simply being successful at the rules, as written, is not an exploit. It's when you take advantage of gaps in the rules, or use the rules in ways they were obviously not intended, that it becomes an exploit.

I'm pretty much the opposite of a minmaxxer (I'm more of a curious gamer rather than an efficient one), and I admit that in some realms (like miniature games), I consider minmaxxers to be the bane and downfall of great games. But my wife literally owns a t-shirt (of her own creation) that says "happiness is the optimization of systems", so I just have to assume that some people feel very fulfilled by spreadsheet gaming.

Quote
Really, what purpose do rules serve?
Part of it is to give a system to optimize and excel at. Part of it is to provide limitations to the player to force roleplaying outside their comfort zone. Part of it is to provide a generator for dramatic situations that culminate in a sufficiently satisfying encounter. Part of it is to create a simulation of a world, so that your actions have reactions. Part of it is simply that RPGs were created by nerds for nerds and boy do nerds love rules. It's a lot of things to a lot of people.

There are RPGs out there with very few rules and ones with a plethora of rules. Groups will generally gravitate towards the game system that most fits their style. D&D seems particularly successful precisely because it gives the nerd-lite version of a roleplaying experience.

Mishihari

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Re: If It’s Fear, I Think People Need Therapy or Something
« Reply #69 on: September 14, 2021, 10:37:18 PM »
Is there something I missed where knowing more rules == having more fun?

From my experience, people that like rules mostly seem to like exploiting them more than just having a framework that emulates a genre.

Really, what purpose do rules serve? Besides how "the Imaginary world" is different from "the Real world".
Do you need a book to tell you that if you get hit by a sword, you will be hurt?
Yes, you need something to determine how many of those hits you can take but how complicated do you require?
Can't you trust the GM to let you know without referencing chapter and paragraph?

My favorite type of game is actually the one where the GM knows the rules and the players don't, but it can be very difficult to pull off well.  First, it puts all of the work on the GM.  The second point derives from the first, the game goes slower because the GM is doing all of the work.  Finally, the GM and players need a common referent for what happens as a result of an action.  Rules do a great job of providing this.  There are two other ways to do this but both have attached difficulties.  One can base task resolution on real life, but everyone has their own perception of how real life works, so this does not entirely provide a common referent, and many of the games we play have no basis in real life.  Once can also base the game upon a work of fiction.  This is my favored approach.  It's nor perfect though:  everyone needs to have read/watched the basis work of fiction and have a similar understanding of it, which takes at least as much time as learning some rules.  It's not a big deal if the fiction in question is Star Wars; everyone has seen that.  But if you want a game based on Zelazny's "They Call Me Sam" or the GM's own creation, it takes a lot of work on the part of the players to do it well.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2021, 03:25:07 AM by Mishihari »

Slipshot762

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Re: If It’s Fear, I Think People Need Therapy or Something
« Reply #70 on: September 15, 2021, 03:40:43 AM »
I know at least two people, a 1e guy and a 3e guy, who both tried 5e and report back they dislike it. They say it just feels different in action, like it's a charade of playing D&D, all the talismans and trappings are present but the magic is not. Whatever that means.

Mishihari

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Re: If It’s Fear, I Think People Need Therapy or Something
« Reply #71 on: September 15, 2021, 04:00:40 AM »
I know at least two people, a 1e guy and a 3e guy, who both tried 5e and report back they dislike it. They say it just feels different in action, like it's a charade of playing D&D, all the talismans and trappings are present but the magic is not. Whatever that means.

That's the feeling I got from just reading it, though I can't figure out why.  Maybe if I actually played it I'd have a better impression.  I dunno.

Greentongue

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Re: If It’s Fear, I Think People Need Therapy or Something
« Reply #72 on: September 15, 2021, 07:07:29 AM »
RPGs especially susceptible to minmaxing, but don't confuse that with "exploiting" the rules. In many ways, it is an exercise in mastering the rules and systems for efficiency and success. Simply being successful at the rules, as written, is not an exploit. It's when you take advantage of gaps in the rules, or use the rules in ways they were obviously not intended, that it becomes an exploit.

I'm pretty much the opposite of a minmaxxer (I'm more of a curious gamer rather than an efficient one), and I admit that in some realms (like miniature games), I consider minmaxxers to be the bane and downfall of great games. But my wife literally owns a t-shirt (of her own creation) that says "happiness is the optimization of systems", so I just have to assume that some people feel very fulfilled by spreadsheet gaming.
I feel that if the focus is on rules, isn't more of a "board game" than a RPG?

Ghostmaker

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Re: If It’s Fear, I Think People Need Therapy or Something
« Reply #73 on: September 15, 2021, 08:38:57 AM »
I don't mind 5E. It's closer to D&D than 4E was, at any rate.

Chris24601

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Re: If It’s Fear, I Think People Need Therapy or Something
« Reply #74 on: September 15, 2021, 08:39:16 AM »
RPGs especially susceptible to minmaxing, but don't confuse that with "exploiting" the rules. In many ways, it is an exercise in mastering the rules and systems for efficiency and success. Simply being successful at the rules, as written, is not an exploit. It's when you take advantage of gaps in the rules, or use the rules in ways they were obviously not intended, that it becomes an exploit.

I'm pretty much the opposite of a minmaxxer (I'm more of a curious gamer rather than an efficient one), and I admit that in some realms (like miniature games), I consider minmaxxers to be the bane and downfall of great games. But my wife literally owns a t-shirt (of her own creation) that says "happiness is the optimization of systems", so I just have to assume that some people feel very fulfilled by spreadsheet gaming.
I feel that if the focus is on rules, isn't more of a "board game" than a RPG?
By contrast, I’d say an RPG’s rules focus are what keep it from being a round of improv theatre locked in a single scenario. The rules are what give you something to push off of in the endless soup of “let’s pretend.” They give a framework for what the PCs and NPCs (allied and opponents) can expect to be able to pull off without a continual need for action confirmation from the Referee.

And here’s the other thing; you don’t have an RPG with the word “game.” The game aspect is a not insignificant part of the activity and there’s a world of difference between Calvinball (the rules made up as you go) and Chess (very established rules) and also a vast middle ground between those extremes where RPGs can fall.

ETA: for it to be a board game you’d need a board and the vast majority of my 3e, 4E and 5e experiences have been entirely theatre of the mind (I’d say maybe 10% of the 4E sessions I ever played used a map and minis).
« Last Edit: September 15, 2021, 08:43:21 AM by Chris24601 »