32 to 64 pages.

I should be able to read it in 1-2 hours tops.

No upper limit, assuming it comes with it's own setting.  If not, I think I can accept up to 256 pages, anything more, and it either has to be a game I REALLY want.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1032278Agree with this for the core of the game.  Then how much else is done--whether in those same core books or in supplements, depends upon the meat provided. I'd be perfectly willing for a dense 128 page rulebook to bloom up to the 256 range (or two books) because of copious examples and good setting material, for example.

I'll +1 this.  Keep the core rules following KISS - ignoring added content (character options etc.) probably under 30 pages because that's what you need to learn.  But once that's done, some lore and/or content being another couple hundred pages can work pretty well - since most systems are designed such that you don't need to know the content before you start playing. (besides GURPS)

While I think generally you should keep the rules tight, I won't touch anything less than 16-20 pages, largely because I'm tired of all the "one page RPG" and "two page RPG" snake oils out there which will solve all of my TTRPG woes. They simply don't have enough meat on the bone to get the job done.

My problem with the hard lines on page counts is they aren't considering format.

150 pages in an 8.5x11" two-column 10 point Times New Roman layout will easily be bigger in terms of word count than a trade paperback (6x9") with single columns* and a font that is both easier on the eyes and a larger font size** that is 325 pages long. As a specific example... I took my Player's Guide in its current format (278 page trade paperback for text only) and switched to the 8.5x11 two-column 10pt TNR and it was just 115 pages in that format (but a LOT harder to read).

Sure, its thicker than 150 pages (about as thick as the 3.5e PHB)... but it also takes up a lot less table real estate (half the height and width of that 3.5e PHB), reads way better on a tablet (and reads better in general) and can stand upright on a normal height book shelf alongside all the Manga and Comic Trades a younger player is likely to have or the normal books most adults accumulate.

The notion that an absolute page count is an objective good instead of say, keeping the word count at a good length, just seems silly to me.

* I have long heard complaints from players who use pdfs that the two column layout either makes the fonts too small (if you don't zoom) or a pain to read through (the "pan and scan" factor).

** I consistently got feedback from older play-testers over the type size used by most game books being to small to read comfortably (3e D&D was a particular offender). I ended up doing a whole hour one night just having some of them compare type faces and font sizes and finally ended up with something most agreed was a good and readable size (the one who didn't agree has his character sheets printed out at 18 point font sizes and says they're still hard to read... I felt pretty safe ignoring that one).

Quote from: Chris24601;1032363** I consistently got feedback from older play-testers over the type size used by most game books being to small to read comfortably (3e D&D was a particular offender). I ended up doing a whole hour one night just having some of them compare type faces and font sizes and finally ended up with something most agreed was a good and readable size (the one who didn't agree has his character sheets printed out at 18 point font sizes and says they're still hard to read... I felt pretty safe ignoring that one).

Heh. When I was making up a Pathfinder character for my brother's campaign, I had to resize and reformat the character sheet that I downloaded from Paizo because it was just too small to read.

It's remarkable how many games, each edition is longer than the last. I'd be more impressed by a new edition which was shorter. Surely after a few years of play you figure out what's important and what can be tossed out. 80/20 rule and all that. Give me the 20% of possible rules that will cover 80% of all situations - I can figure out the rest by myself.

For the core rules I think anything over 100 pages starts to stretch it. But I NEVER count equipment and spells as rules. Because they arent. Maybee another 10-50 pages for chargen which tends to be a one and done thing.

Quote from: Chris24601;1032363My problem with the hard lines on page counts is they aren't considering format.

My answers were all for 8.5 by 11 inches, because while I like the idea of some of the other formats, in practice I find them annoying.  I've already got gaming shelves with a lot of 8.5 by 11 stuff on it.  So the other stuff doesn't fit well.  Anything presented in tables either has tiny print or covers many pages.  It doesn't lay flat as easily when I'm reading it.  (And that's so important to me, I'd almost prefer spiral bound soft-cover over a hardback, though I know it doesn't hold up as well.)  I'm not reading it on a tablet, so no benefit to me there.  The only time I enjoy the smaller format is when the word count is so small that the larger format would go well under 64 pages.  Finally, to make a trade size book look really nice, you use a big percentage of the space for margins.  There's just not much information on any one page, and that's not how I scan rules.

In general (outside of gaming as well), I find smaller formats good for reading, with larger formats good for reference--especially technical reference.  I consider a good set of game rules mainly a technical reference.

As I get older, my tastes have changed.  Ideally, I now prefer rule books that clock in around 60 pages.  I agree with what's said about the game being what happens at the table, not the book.

Depends on the game and system in mind.

I really liked the Pathfinder Core book, which was a big heavy tome with a large page count.
I ran PF for a couple of years quite happily with just that book.
In this case it was easily over 400 pages I believe (closer to 500?).
Which worked as any DnD based system is pretty easy really (well apart from the horrible 4e).
So having a big book wasn't overwhelming.

But then again I also liked the smaller page count of the Rolemaster FRP book.  it's was an abridged rules set, but had everything you needed to get a start, even condensed combat charts.  
You were good to go with a shorter list of Races, classes and spells up to level 10. More than enough to start up and not get blinded with complicated rules.
But you could buy additional books to add in more races and higher level spells, more complicated combat etc.
I think the RMFRP was only a couple of hundred pages.

Still, I also like the approach of the 5e book.  It has everything you need to run DnD and no further buy in if you don't want to. I think about 350 pages or something.  
 
So too little? probably under 200 if it's a stand alone rules set for a DnD type setting. But that depends.  
Silent Legions (Horror RPG by Sine Nomine) is a very thin book, but it doesn't feel too small, as it's a very story RP focused RPG, not mechanics and combat heavy.

Too much?  over 500 pages and there better be a REALLY good reason why there's so many pages and I'd hope it wasn't as there was a lot of games mechanics as a requirement for so many pages, but ok if it's providing a lot of fluff.

For a complete system, I would say my lower limit is about 100 pages. Smaller than that it will be too simple for my preferences.

Upper page count is meaningless to me unless it's broken down into how much is core play rules/mechanics, how much is spells, how much is monsters, how much is GM tools, etc. I dont care how long your spell lists and monster entries are (its all kind of icing on the cake), but I do care about the core play mechanics (how do you do stuff, combat, injuries/healing, how magic works) - they need to be short and sweet. Not lots of fiddly subsystems that bake my brainpan. On that section, the core play mechanics part, I'd want probably i dunno 30-40 pages? Short enough that I can get the gist of the game in a quick read thru.

Quote from: Chris24601;1032363** I consistently got feedback from older play-testers over the type size used by most game books being to small to read comfortably (3e D&D was a particular offender). I ended up doing a whole hour one night just having some of them compare type faces and font sizes and finally ended up with something most agreed was a good and readable size (the one who didn't agree has his character sheets printed out at 18 point font sizes and says they're still hard to read... I felt pretty safe ignoring that one).

1. It's not just older gamers. I've had bad vision for my entire life, and if the font size is too small (even for regular novel paperbacks) I have to pass on it.
2. Okay, so I'm also an older gamer now.

Larger fonts are also better for reading comprehension. No dorks, this doesn't mean the best books are in 72 point! It's that tiny print causes readers to skip and skim...which is why you should re-read anything in small print on something you're buying.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1032409My answers were all for 8.5 by 11 inches, because while I like the idea of some of the other formats, in practice I find them annoying.  I've already got gaming shelves with a lot of 8.5 by 11 stuff on it.  So the other stuff doesn't fit well.  Anything presented in tables either has tiny print or covers many pages.  It doesn't lay flat as easily when I'm reading it.  (And that's so important to me, I'd almost prefer spiral bound soft-cover over a hardback, though I know it doesn't hold up as well.)

I have a deep fondness for the Traveller LBB size books. I am always surprised more publishers didn't go that route. But I understand the appeal of standard size books. If a publisher goes smaller size, they gotta make those tables work well. Personally, one table must fit on one page.

I much prefer a good solid staple in the center spine than the goober glue used in most 8.5x11 softcovers. My Gamma World 1e is a joy 40 years later. The staples are rusted (how very post-apoc), but it opens flat for every page.

In theory, I like spiral bound, but all the spiral bound books I've gotten have fallen apart easily or gotten caught on everything.

I'm fond of 6" x 9" nowadays, although I have no real problem with 8.5" x 11". The smaller size makes designers work harder when they are doing layout and tables, which IMO is a good thing. 100 pages is my ideal thickness. I'm still upset about not being able to get BLUEHOLME Journeymanne below 115 pages.