Its out, does anyone have it? What do you think?

I know D&D5E is big news, but I love my superheroes.

Quote from: Silverlion;764709Its out, does anyone have it? What do you think?

I know D&D5E is big news, but I love my superheroes.

Got it, but haven't had a chance to dig in. Look like Kenson did a really good job of listening to feedback in organizing the new book. though. Most of the cool mechanical bits from other books made it in, with Great Power the only one not being made superfluous by it.

I got the new edition, I was actually part of the play test so we've playing with them for a while. The main changes that spring to mind area:

• The core dice mechanic changed from player only rolls 1d6-1d6 to GM rolls 1d6, player rolls 1d6. The old dice method has been demoted to an optional rule.


• The key rules and subsystems from Villainomicon, Great Power and Team Up are now in the core book, including discussion on Universe Style Play. I’m particularly pleased that the Pyramid Test mechanic is not just covered in detail but also referred to in other parts of the rules.


• The number of Aspects per character has be drastically cut from 10 to 3.


• The Determination rules have undergone the biggest change edging the game closer to Fate than TSR's Marvel Super Heroes. It’s the one area where the rules have become more rather than less complicated.


• The Power follow the Great Power model, making them more customisable than vanilla ICONS. They are also, thankfully, listed alphabetically rather than by type.


• The 'small stuff' like rules Specialties and ad-hoc actions have been cleaned up nicely.


• There are a lot of extended examples of play, something that clearly missing from the original.


• In terms of production while still cartoon-like, the art is generally more polished. The physical product will come as a 6x9 hardcover book.

At the core it is still the same game. I think the combination of the new, more conventional dice mechanic, the play examples and inclusion of key from the other ICONS books will make this new edition much more accessible to new players.

For my part, I’ll use some bits like the Specialites and ignore other bits like new dice mechanic (will never give up on “player only rolls” approach) or the reduced number of Qualities.

I love player only rolls games, but I admit, I like the each side rolls for Icons. Another method to keep player only rolls would be to assume a default additive to the Villains side like the Buffy RPG. Something  like +2 as an "average" depending on how tough you want your foe you could add more.

Anyway, I'm enjoying it so far, cleaned up and well presented.

I have it.  The biggest and most notable changes are in the presentation and layout.  It definitely both looks better and is better organized than the original ICONS rulebook, at least IMO.  I also like the examples of play, which was sorely missing from the original.  Outside of presentation, the actual rule change I like most is the addition of GMs rolling now as well as players.

Quote from: Soylent Green;764761

• The number of Aspects per character has be drastically cut from 10 to 3.

Woah! That sounds like a rather major change.

How did that fly in the playtest?

How did it affect chargen?

Quote from: Soylent Green;764761

• The Determination rules have undergone the biggest change edging the game closer to Fate than TSR's Marvel Super Heroes. It's the one area where the rules have become more rather than less complicated.

Hmm more complicated is rarely better...what was the effect in the playtest?

Quote from: Soylent Green;764761I got the new edition, I was actually part of the play test so we've playing with them for a while. The main changes that spring to mind area:

I really, really want to give ICONS another try. I'm not sure what is it about it that left me cold the first time — I suspect it was the lack of flexibility and/or customization with Powers.

Then again, random character generation and the group's lack of propensity towards genre conventions probably didn't help either, and the system's not to fault here.

Quote from: Spinachcat;765064Woah! That sounds like a rather major change.

How did that fly in the playtest?

How did it affect chargen?

It didn't. We incorporated the playtest within our ongoing ICONS campaign so just generally carried on playing our existing characters and just adopted to the new rules for action resolution. Bear in mind in the lifetime of this campaign Great Power also came out so at the time of the playtest we have already a mix of some characters and NPC based on the new rules. And just to confuse things more, as it's a troupe style campaign with rotating GM, many on us have more than on character, not necessarily on the same level of rules. It's anarchy!

I personally see it as a strength of the system, that it can flex that sort of way without breaking but I can understand more detail orientated player right be horrified. And while it may have not made for a rigourous playtest group, having an experienced ICONS group playing regularly throughout the playtest period for free can't be bad.

QuoteHmm more complicated is rarely better...what was the effect in the playtest?

Bear in mind these part of the rules changed a lot during the playtest; I think Steve was trying out different options. Initially it did not go very well. Things slowed down to a crawl and led to a lot of in-game rule discussions. The final iterations were okay, with the Determination rules working a lot like they always did but with an additional step in the middle to make it conform to a more generally applicable mechanic.

Yeah, I appreciate that's as clear as mud.

Quote from: The Butcher;765079I really, really want to give ICONS another try. I'm not sure what is it about it that left me cold the first time — I suspect it was the lack of flexibility and/or customization with Powers.

Then again, random character generation and the group's lack of propensity towards genre conventions probably didn't help either, and the system's not to fault here.

I think Great Power should solve any issues about power costumisation. Great Power is compatible with the new edition.

What is much harder to solve is a group that doesn't the genre. What help me get past that hurdle were some of the better animated superhero animated series. One of my players admitted he never understood how to play a superhero as a real person until he saw the Justice League animated series.

Quote from: Soylent Green;765123What is much harder to solve is a group that doesn't the genre. What help me get past that hurdle were some of the better animated superhero animated series. One of my players admitted he never understood how to play a superhero as a real person until he saw the Justice League animated series.

DCAU is probably the gold standard of superhero universes, taking the best of the comics universe and making it both coherent and compelling.

I also like to include the animated Spectacular Spider-Man, Batman: Brave and the Bold, and Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes in my "teaching" pool.

Quote from: Maltese Changeling;765221DCAU is probably the gold standard of superhero universes, taking the best of the comics universe and making it both coherent and compelling.

I also like to include the animated Spectacular Spider-Man, Batman: Brave and the Bold, and Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes in my "teaching" pool.

Avengers EMH was brilliant, and I agree it would work just a nicely an introduction to the genre, especially if they've seen some of the Marvel movies. Spectacular Spider-Man was also very good but the experience of a solo character, especially a teenage one, is probably less useful for gaming purposes.

Brave and Bold is very entertaining but to be honest the last thing gamers not comfortable with the supers genre need is to see it deconstruted and spoofed. I would consider Brave and the Bold "advanced" viewing. :-)

Quote from: Maltese Changeling;765221DCAU is probably the gold standard of superhero universes, taking the best of the comics universe and making it both coherent and compelling.

I also like to include the animated Spectacular Spider-Man, Batman: Brave and the Bold, and Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes in my "teaching" pool.

I agree with this too. Young Justice is also very good by all accounts, and I still have a soft spot for the Teen Titans show 5 years or so ago (its a little zany but was consistently good).

Quote from: Soylent Green;765249Brave and Bold is very entertaining but to be honest the last thing gamers not comfortable with the supers genre need is to see it deconstruted and spoofed. I would consider Brave and the Bold "advanced" viewing. :-)

As much as I love the Hammers of Justice, I must agree with what you say here.

Well done Soylent Green.

I always recommend Avengers: EMH, and Batman, JLA/JLU, and Batman Beyond as well.

Picked up my PDF copy. I am impressed. Its a big improvement on the original Icons.

I can't help but feel that there is still some confusion around the way  Determination, Qualities, Advantage/Trouble etc are explained but its not a major issue.