TheRPGSite

Just as I predicted! The D&D SJWs now demand that no one should be allowed to play a ttrpg character of a different race!

The SJW's are gonna be mighty pissed once they realize that Talesin Jaffe is niether female, nor a goblin.

I just listened to it. And I'm going to share my unvarnished thoughts on the subject.

WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK?!! Sentient human beings couldn't have possibly come up with such a ridiculous notion!

This is an idea I would expect out of a POTATO! Not a human being!

I pulled myself out of bed to make this post. Because I realized what happened to Matt Mercer during that broadcast. He was trolled by a bunch of viewers who straight-up lack the maturity to actually participate in a roleplaying game, themselves.

The sheer stupid in this doesn't come from Marxists or any other boogeyman the right keep bringing up. It comes from people who likely wouldn't pass muster on actually being able to be in a roleplaying group at all themselves. People who are being calculated and malicious simply to disrupt the activity. And sadly, Mercer played right into their hands. Instead of staying and actually playing.

Any of us with a long time history of playing in and running RPG groups have encountered people who are unfit to play in a game group. We all have had to toss out the occasional disruptive fuck to just make the game group work. It's a basic part of the condition.

So no. I'm disagreeing with Pundit here. This isn't some political movement. This is a case of immature trolls being immature trolls. It's not some conspiracy. It's the fact that the GM didn't have ironclad control of his environment that would have prevented a guest player from being jeered off-camera by an unruly mob.

This wasn't a political situation. This was just trolling by people who came to that broadcast to deliberately disrupt it. While pulling the first bit of idiocy out of their asses to be a vehicle for it.

Does anyone have the link to the Matt Mercer source under discussion? (I haven't seen the whole video yet, but there doesn't seem to be a link in the description or comments.)

We should be fairly used to poisonous lunacy by now, but RPGs are about playing charaters who are different from us... right? Yeah, this is not about playing better, it is about "how dare these problematic people play at all".

In my campaigns, my players are free to play anyone they want from any background.  Any race, any gender. I run games almost entirely online and the anonymity of the internet works wonders for making it less awkward to play characters of another gender.

Hell, I once played a gay character in a long-running Mechwarrior campaign and quite enjoyed it.

What's the point of playing an RPG if you always have to play yourself?  Any RPG product with a "you cannot play members of another race/background" disclaimer in the front will be getting a hard pass from me.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley on November 13, 2020, 02:20:11 AM
I pulled myself out of bed to make this post. Because I realized what happened to Matt Mercer during that broadcast. He was trolled by a bunch of viewers who straight-up lack the maturity to actually participate in a roleplaying game, themselves.

The sheer stupid in this doesn't come from Marxists or any other boogeyman the right keep bringing up. It comes from people who likely wouldn't pass muster on actually being able to be in a roleplaying group at all themselves. People who are being calculated and malicious simply to disrupt the activity. And sadly, Mercer played right into their hands. Instead of staying and actually playing.

Any of us with a long time history of playing in and running RPG groups have encountered people who are unfit to play in a game group. We all have had to toss out the occasional disruptive fuck to just make the game group work. It's a basic part of the condition.

So no. I'm disagreeing with Pundit here. This isn't some political movement. This is a case of immature trolls being immature trolls. It's not some conspiracy. It's the fact that the GM didn't have ironclad control of his environment that would have prevented a guest player from being jeered off-camera by an unruly mob.

This wasn't a political situation. This was just trolling by people who came to that broadcast to deliberately disrupt it. While pulling the first bit of idiocy out of their asses to be a vehicle for it.

I disagree with your disagreement. Even if this was truly a troll job the fact still remains that the absolute ONLY reason the troll worked and Mercer apologized in Twitter is because of the political situation. If the political situation did not exist this troll job would never have worked (assuming that's what happened), regardless of whether some idiots don't understand role playing games.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley on November 13, 2020, 02:20:11 AM
I pulled myself out of bed to make this post. Because I realized what happened to Matt Mercer during that broadcast. He was trolled by a bunch of viewers who straight-up lack the maturity to actually participate in a roleplaying game, themselves.

The sheer stupid in this doesn't come from Marxists or any other boogeyman the right keep bringing up. It comes from people who likely wouldn't pass muster on actually being able to be in a roleplaying group at all themselves. People who are being calculated and malicious simply to disrupt the activity. And sadly, Mercer played right into their hands. Instead of staying and actually playing.

Any of us with a long time history of playing in and running RPG groups have encountered people who are unfit to play in a game group. We all have had to toss out the occasional disruptive fuck to just make the game group work. It's a basic part of the condition.

So no. I'm disagreeing with Pundit here. This isn't some political movement. This is a case of immature trolls being immature trolls. It's not some conspiracy. It's the fact that the GM didn't have ironclad control of his environment that would have prevented a guest player from being jeered off-camera by an unruly mob.

This wasn't a political situation. This was just trolling by people who came to that broadcast to deliberately disrupt it. While pulling the first bit of idiocy out of their asses to be a vehicle for it.

So, Tangency vs Matt Mercer. Flawless Victory for Tangency.

Weird tangental story for you.  There was a guy who used to come to my store who had a full time social worker.  The usual guy was African, and given where I live I suspect born in Africa.  We were playing a GURPS campaign in a kind of horror apocalypse world and our characters were children.  I made a smart mouthed black kid loosely based on Richard Prior and Eddie Murphy.  At one point the GM was questioning my choices and I said I thought it was what a kid who's trying to look tough and brave but is falling apart inside because he'd seen his parents murdered right in front of him would do.

The social worker never came back and the guy he came with stopped coming.  Was it because he disapproved of my playing a cool black kid or was it because the subject matter was hitting too close to home or something else, I don't know.  But it gets me to thinking.  There were a lot of memes earlier this year where white people did things to appease African Americans but didn't stop killing them.

I don't know where I'm going with this really.  Maybe, when it comes to race, we focus too much on the cosmetic issues because they're easy to see and make small concessions and not enough on the real problems.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley on November 13, 2020, 02:20:11 AM
I pulled myself out of bed to make this post. Because I realized what happened to Matt Mercer during that broadcast. He was trolled by a bunch of viewers who straight-up lack the maturity to actually participate in a roleplaying game, themselves.

The sheer stupid in this doesn't come from Marxists or any other boogeyman the right keep bringing up. It comes from people who likely wouldn't pass muster on actually being able to be in a roleplaying group at all themselves. People who are being calculated and malicious simply to disrupt the activity. And sadly, Mercer played right into their hands. Instead of staying and actually playing.

Any of us with a long time history of playing in and running RPG groups have encountered people who are unfit to play in a game group. We all have had to toss out the occasional disruptive fuck to just make the game group work. It's a basic part of the condition.

So no. I'm disagreeing with Pundit here. This isn't some political movement. This is a case of immature trolls being immature trolls. It's not some conspiracy. It's the fact that the GM didn't have ironclad control of his environment that would have prevented a guest player from being jeered off-camera by an unruly mob.

This wasn't a political situation. This was just trolling by people who came to that broadcast to deliberately disrupt it. While pulling the first bit of idiocy out of their asses to be a vehicle for it.

Good for them! Sometimes it takes a good troll to shock the system.

May the trolls burn down the entirety of modern D&D "culture." Good riddance to professional voice actors, paid players, doing it for the views, and all of that garbage. These games are for awkward types to play in their basement to get a dose of social interaction, not something to be commoditized on the internet for casual lookie loos.

Honor the original troll, pictured below.

There was nice thread on Twitter by some Hindu-American seemingly very woke game designer who pointed out - well within leftist logic it would seem - that white celebrity helping POC game-designer in promoting his project, was a good thing generally, and as designer of Hindu-themed content he would hate if white people avoided it out of fear. But NOPE - authism has to win every fucking time.

QuoteI disagree with your disagreement. Even if this was truly a troll job the fact still remains that the absolute ONLY reason the troll worked and Mercer apologized in Twitter is because of the political situation. If the political situation did not exist this troll job would never have worked (assuming that's what happened), regardless of whether some idiots don't understand role playing games.

It would be quite cool is whole situation was provoked by some right-wing troll and then WOKE mob just ran straight into abyss following bait XD

Shouldn't this thread belong in "The RPGPundit's Own Forum"?

Fuck the SJW's

Even if this is a case of Matt Mercer being trolled, I say fuck 'em.

Fuck WOTC, fuck 5th Edition, fuck Critical Role, fuck the Marxists, fuck BLM, and fuck Antifa.

Quote from: Nemesis on November 13, 2020, 10:37:21 AM
Shouldn't this thread belong in "The RPGPundit's Own Forum"?

It is gaming related rather than purely political, if people are going and brigading others online for the crime of playing as other ethnicities.

Quote from: Nemesis on November 13, 2020, 10:37:21 AM
Shouldn't this thread belong in "The RPGPundit's Own Forum"?

It's ALL The RPG Pundit's own forum.

Quote from: Valatar on November 13, 2020, 11:12:40 AM

Quote from: Nemesis on November 13, 2020, 10:37:21 AM
Shouldn't this thread belong in "The RPGPundit's Own Forum"?

It is gaming related rather than purely political, if people are going and brigading others online for the crime of playing as other ethnicities.

I see. For me, it'll eventually fall into the realm of political talk:

RPG races -> SJW bringing up real races -> ethnicities -> identity politics -> politics.

Thomas Mann felt "Everything is Political", and it sure seems like 2020 has been that way.

Quote from: Hawkwing7423 on November 13, 2020, 02:19:13 PM
Thomas Mann felt "Everything is Political", and it sure seems like 2020 has been that way.

I'll blame them and their thinking for a lot of things, but I really can't lay Covid-19 at the SJW's door.  :)

Quote from: ponta1010 on November 13, 2020, 02:35:44 PM


I'll blame them and their thinking for a lot of things, but I really can't lay Covid-19 at the SJW's door.  :)

Um, yes we can. It should be treated like other pandemics, such as Asian Flu 1957, Hong Kong Flu 1968. This scamdemic has been used to push mail in ballots and break small businesses, and generally to try to force the population to listen to authoritarian dictates out of fear.

We should not be quarantining the healthy. Elderly and immunocompromised should be taking special precautions. Herd immunity is what we must get to.

So I can still play a Tiefling that is an unholy mix of devil and human but not a Black Human character?

I can see the logic.

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2020, 09:29:15 PM
Just as I predicted! The D&D SJWs now demand that no one should be allowed to play a ttrpg character of a different race!

So naturally once the kung-flu restrictions are lifted on Broadway they will never do another run of Hamilton...



[/quote]

Quote from: Darrin Kelley on November 13, 2020, 02:20:11 AM
...
The sheer stupid in this doesn't come from Marxists ...

So being trolled by people using Marxist critical race theory rhetoric, some how doesn't come from Marxists?

(https://cdn.business2community.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/hiding-head-in-sand-620x250.jpg-600x241.jpg)

Quote from: Darrin Kelley on November 13, 2020, 02:20:11 AM
I pulled myself out of bed to make this post. Because I realized what happened to Matt Mercer during that broadcast. He was trolled by a bunch of viewers who straight-up lack the maturity to actually participate in a roleplaying game, themselves.

The sheer stupid in this doesn't come from Marxists or any other boogeyman the right keep bringing up. It comes from people who likely wouldn't pass muster on actually being able to be in a roleplaying group at all themselves. People who are being calculated and malicious simply to disrupt the activity. And sadly, Mercer played right into their hands. Instead of staying and actually playing.

Any of us with a long time history of playing in and running RPG groups have encountered people who are unfit to play in a game group. We all have had to toss out the occasional disruptive fuck to just make the game group work. It's a basic part of the condition.

So no. I'm disagreeing with Pundit here. This isn't some political movement. This is a case of immature trolls being immature trolls. It's not some conspiracy. It's the fact that the GM didn't have ironclad control of his environment that would have prevented a guest player from being jeered off-camera by an unruly mob.

This wasn't a political situation. This was just trolling by people who came to that broadcast to deliberately disrupt it. While pulling the first bit of idiocy out of their asses to be a vehicle for it.

It was trolling specifically using critical race theory = social marxism, and honestly anyone believing in that bullshit is in fact pretty immature.   So the odd thing is you are correct on almost all points, except the nature of the trolling, that is honestly indeterminable as to whether the trolls are true believers or smart asses who were able to use the tool of true believers to make a dude fold.  Does it somehow make the tool of the marxist, or the damage they do less if a non believer is able to use their tool to force compliance?  Nor sure I can follow your logic.

Quote from: jhkim on November 13, 2020, 02:52:24 AM
Does anyone have the link to the Matt Mercer source under discussion? (I haven't seen the whole video yet, but there doesn't seem to be a link in the description or comments.)

Yep.  Not really possible to say anything without.

Quote from: Jaeger on November 13, 2020, 03:45:03 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2020, 09:29:15 PM
Just as I predicted! The D&D SJWs now demand that no one should be allowed to play a ttrpg character of a different race!

So naturally once the kung-flu restrictions are lifted on Broadway they will never do another run of Hamilton...

Quote from: Darrin Kelley on November 13, 2020, 02:20:11 AM
...
The sheer stupid in this doesn't come from Marxists ...

So being trolled by people using Marxist critical race theory rhetoric, some how doesn't come from Marxists?

(https://cdn.business2community.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/hiding-head-in-sand-620x250.jpg-600x241.jpg)
[/quote]

Greetings!

Hello, Jaeger my friend! Your commentary reminds me of a curious dynamic with a number of mushy members here. They somehow like to naively split hairs in making distinctions that for someone to be a Communist they have to be wearing a Soviet uniform and waving a Soviet or Chicom flag, and must have self-admitted to being a Communist.

They're biases are mind-numbingly obtuse.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: TJS on November 13, 2020, 04:11:34 PM

Quote from: jhkim on November 13, 2020, 02:52:24 AM
Does anyone have the link to the Matt Mercer source under discussion? (I haven't seen the whole video yet, but there doesn't seem to be a link in the description or comments.)

Yep.  Not really possible to say anything without.

Can you post a link, please? I briefly tried a search, but I couldn't isolate the case in question.

Quote from: jhkim on November 13, 2020, 04:39:33 PM

Quote from: TJS on November 13, 2020, 04:11:34 PM

Quote from: jhkim on November 13, 2020, 02:52:24 AM
Does anyone have the link to the Matt Mercer source under discussion? (I haven't seen the whole video yet, but there doesn't seem to be a link in the description or comments.)

Yep.  Not really possible to say anything without.

Can you post a link, please? I briefly tried a search, but I couldn't isolate the case in question.

Sorry, if I was unclear.   I was agreeing with your request.  I couldn't find anything either except for a couple of cringeworthy tweets by Mercer without any real context.

https://twitter.com/matthewmercer/status/1325930059941642241

Good video. I like your points about mythological vs. postmodern narrative.

Quote from: oggsmash on November 13, 2020, 05:04:09 PM
https://twitter.com/matthewmercer/status/1325930059941642241

Thanks, oggsmash. Looks like Mercer has agreed to critics. On the other hand, the game's creator, Chris Spivey, posted that he supported any player playing any race - and cited an explanatory thread from Ajit George saying similar.

https://twitter.com/Darker_Hue/status/1326598976410357762

I haven't been able to find posts from those originally expressing criticism of Mercer's casting, though. It was frustrating to me that Pundit didn't post to what he was talking about - but from your link, Matt and Chris do the same thing, not linking to who they're speaking about. I guess it's just the norm for Internet discussion these days, but it runs against my preferences.

Regarding the topic, I agree with Chris, Ajit, and Pundit - it's players can play PCs of any race. It seems to me that Mercer is being hypersensitive to an unreasonable critic.

Quote from: oggsmash on November 13, 2020, 05:04:09 PM
https://twitter.com/matthewmercer/status/1325930059941642241

God! That guy is creepy.
If Mercer is serious, he'd give up his position as a voice actor and youtube celebrity to a "oppressed minority", but he won't because this is all just virtue signaling.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on November 13, 2020, 05:51:36 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on November 13, 2020, 05:04:09 PM
https://twitter.com/matthewmercer/status/1325930059941642241

God! That guy is creepy.
If Mercer is serious, he'd give up his position as a voice actor and youtube celebrity to a "oppressed minority", but he won't because this is all just virtue signaling.

He is probably Native American or some such.

Quote from: Shasarak on November 13, 2020, 08:02:41 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on November 13, 2020, 05:51:36 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on November 13, 2020, 05:04:09 PM
https://twitter.com/matthewmercer/status/1325930059941642241

God! That guy is creepy.
If Mercer is serious, he'd give up his position as a voice actor and youtube celebrity to a "oppressed minority", but he won't because this is all just virtue signaling.

He is probably Native American or some such.

Then he can give his stuff to a black transgender person.

I honestly don't know how we discuss this topic in the Main Forum without violating RPGPundit's rules regarding politics on the main page.

My 2 cents? Fuck those fucking fuckheads.

Am I really supposed to play a WHITE DUDE in L5R? Rifts Japan? Rifts Africa? What about my Rifts South America game? No more Latino characters for non-Latino players?

Yet again, more reasons to never let a SJW near your table.

Quote from: Spinachcat on November 13, 2020, 09:00:25 PM
I honestly don't know how we discuss this topic in the Main Forum without violating RPGPundit's rules regarding politics on the main page.

This is where RPGPundit put the thread.  I'm sure he could move it if he wanted to do so.

Quote from: Spinachcat on November 13, 2020, 09:00:25 PM
I honestly don't know how we discuss this topic in the Main Forum without violating RPGPundit's rules regarding politics on the main page.

My 2 cents? Fuck those fucking fuckheads.

Am I really supposed to play a WHITE DUDE in L5R? Rifts Japan? Rifts Africa? What about my Rifts South America game? No more Latino characters for non-Latino players?

Yet again, more reasons to never let a SJW near your table.

In this particular instance I'm not understanding how this should be filed under political? A group of players already arguing that you shouldn't play a particular race etc unless you are that race. As you yourself point out following this theory leads to the conclusion that a number of RPGs become unplayable. To me it's like the old DND version wars where you shouldn't be playing version 'x'

I stopped going to the game stores in my area years ago because of this. Comicbook stores are dead now, so hopefully the gamestores are on their way too.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on November 13, 2020, 10:40:21 PM
I stopped going to the game stores in my area years ago because of this. Comicbook stores are dead now, so hopefully the gamestores are on their way too.

Feel bad for the based shops, but feel good seeing the woke shops die off.

Quote from: Shasarak on November 13, 2020, 08:02:41 PM
He is probably Native American or some such.

He looks less native american than I do.

Quote from: Snowman0147 on November 14, 2020, 12:14:54 AM
Feel bad for the based shops, but feel good seeing the woke shops die off.

I wish there were based shops of anything near me. But everything is run by the gay mafia.

This isn't a Marxist or globalist position to take.

There seems a very USA-an issue with a subset of middle class white people who seem to have adopted a kind of separatist prescriptive racial or gender isolationism at the level of the individual.
I can't quite work it out but it's ultra consumerist liberalism (as in I buy my own identity) mixed with the sort of moralistic shot we usually see with mass movement conformism.
It's  not spread far outside the Anglo world, but as a subsidiary of US culture we have it in the UK.
It's a very small proportion of people that really espouse it, but it can be quite difficult to question since it can present itself as overturning historic oppression, and hijack legitimate anti-racism, homophobia and mysogyny.
That this idea may have popped up in gaming isn't surprising, after all we are a hobby that is all about roles and identity and constructing and playing with new ones.

It's a gaming issue, but one needs to careful to conflate it with the broader social-democratic movement.

I finally got through the video (with ad breaks every 3 minutes; YouTube really sucks now as a platform.) I think Mercer is going to find out soon enough that voice acting a character of a different race is not allowed either. But he really can't complain. This is the side he chose.

Quote from: silencio789 on November 14, 2020, 08:18:32 AM
This isn't a Marxist or globalist position to take.

There seems a very USA-an issue with a subset of middle class white people who seem to have adopted a kind of separatist prescriptive racial or gender isolationism at the level of the individual.
I can't quite work it out but it's ultra consumerist liberalism (as in I buy my own identity) mixed with the sort of moralistic shot we usually see with mass movement conformism.
It's  not spread far outside the Anglo world, but as a subsidiary of US culture we have it in the UK.
It's a very small proportion of people that really espouse it, but it can be quite difficult to question since it can present itself as overturning historic oppression, and hijack legitimate anti-racism, homophobia and mysogyny.
That this idea may have popped up in gaming isn't surprising, after all we are a hobby that is all about roles and identity and constructing and playing with new ones.

It's a gaming issue, but one needs to careful to conflate it with the broader social-democratic movement.

Good points.

It can be linked to a rise in a class of people involved in creating cultural content - this aspect of it is not so USA centric.  I first saw this being pointed out 10 or 15 years ago with the gap appearing between the traditional working class supporter of left wing political parties and middle class urban progressives.  What we are seeing right now, is what happens when you take this new class, put it in a culture that has a long history of seeing things through puritanical religious view points, add social media and then supercharge with Covid 19.

However, this isn't solely linked to the US.  It's happening all over the place because the same underlying social changes and conditions are there - it just isn't happening to anything like the same extent.

Quote from: mightybrain on November 14, 2020, 02:19:24 PM
I finally got through the video (with ad breaks every 3 minutes; YouTube really sucks now as a platform.) I think Mercer is going to find out soon enough that voice acting a character of a different race is not allowed either. But he really can't complain. This is the side he chose.

HE will be OK for a while.  All the twitter rage is going to be headed towards Gina Carano for having the audacity to create and post on a Parler account today.

But I've read Parler is backed up by Mercer family :P

Quote from: Nemesis on November 13, 2020, 10:37:21 AM
Shouldn't this thread belong in "The RPGPundit's Own Forum"?

No, it's related to an issue in the gaming hobby.

Quote from: Hawkwing7423 on November 13, 2020, 03:35:46 PM

Quote from: ponta1010 on November 13, 2020, 02:35:44 PM


I'll blame them and their thinking for a lot of things, but I really can't lay Covid-19 at the SJW's door.  :)

Um, yes we can. It should be treated like other pandemics, such as Asian Flu 1957, Hong Kong Flu 1968. This scamdemic has been used to push mail in ballots and break small businesses, and generally to try to force the population to listen to authoritarian dictates out of fear.

We should not be quarantining the healthy. Elderly and immunocompromised should be taking special precautions. Herd immunity is what we must get to.

This post is off-topic. Do not post off-topic subjects in this thread. If you do this again you will be banned.

Quote from: Mercurius on November 13, 2020, 05:35:21 PM
Good video. I like your points about mythological vs. postmodern narrative.

Thank you!

Quote from: Spinachcat on November 13, 2020, 09:00:25 PM
I honestly don't know how we discuss this topic in the Main Forum without violating RPGPundit's rules regarding politics on the main page.

It's very simple: keep it on the subject of the RPG hobby. You can talk about any political issues as long as it is how those political issues apply or are being manifested IN THE GAMING HOBBY. You can't switch to talking about these issues OUTSIDE the gaming hobby.

Quote from: Nemesis on November 13, 2020, 10:37:21 AM
Shouldn't this thread belong in "The RPGPundit's Own Forum"?

No. It passes the test for this forum

It is game-related. And the even stricter test: If there were no RPGs, the question wouldn't exist. 

On an unrelated note, what if there were no rhetorical questions.

What to do if there is no one of your ethnicity in the environment? Sure, you could play a white person in a sub-Saharan African campaign but there couldn't be many or you would be playing, shudder, colonials.

Or what if you were playing in my Silk Road campaign. Of course, a Chinese person could play a Han and a Japanese person could play someone from the Nine Pearls. It is even possible to play a European, a Persian, an Arab or a Black African. But that would mean that the player-characters would all be from the edges of the map. The middle of the map is Tocharians (extinct), Sakas (long gone) Toriks (fictional speakers of a Turkic language) and Sarmatians (gone) Can nobody play them?

Or my pseudo-Europe. Does anyone identify as a Mothi or a Shan?

Simple.

The next stage will be that you are not allowed to even buy or play games of a race you are not unless your race is supported. Not handicapped? Cant play that either? Handicapped? Cant play a normal person. Nope. Nada. Verboten.

Segregation lives. And everyone supporting it needs to die.

I think the whole idea of 'setting' is anathema to a lot of these people anyway.  Too restrictive to the pure vision of the player. So it's probably seen as a win that it makes historical games basically unworkable.

After all if I'm running an ancient Rome game you won't be able to play your anthropomorphic pigeon warforged gunslinger.  It's outright tyranny for one player to tell another what they can play!

TJS nailed something here.

Setting doesn't matter because the setting and the GM exist ONLY for player wish fulfillment. They gather round the table and the GM jerks them off while they imagine the amazing adventures of their Cyborg Pigeon six-shooting its way through Rome.

They're called Adventure Paths for a reason.

Since my table is all old "privileged" white guys, we don't worry about any of this crap.
We do enjoy our gaming conventions though and worry about being "excommunicated" one of these years. 

Also, I don't game for an audience. It's just for my game groups.

I think the GM in this case invited a lot of trouble by having a live audience. You can never predict what a live audience will do. Or really what effect they will have on the activity at hand.

Even the convention games I run tend to be in private rooms. Instead of being out in the wild.

Quote from: DocJones on November 15, 2020, 07:19:40 PMWe do enjoy our gaming conventions though and worry about being "excommunicated" one of these years.

I suspect that non-SJWs will need their own conventions sooner than later.

Whenever conventions happen again, I suspect D&D Twatter will demand "new rules" from Origins and GenCon that will swiftly become "the new normal" at any regional convention where the SJW crowd are either in charge, or can threaten the organizers into submission.

You will kneel, you will obey, or you won't attend.

...and just like Parler arose, so will an alternate game convention option rise.

Quote from: Spinachcat on November 15, 2020, 06:38:09 PM
TJS nailed something here.

Setting doesn't matter because the setting and the GM exist ONLY for player wish fulfillment. They gather round the table and the GM jerks them off while they imagine the amazing adventures of their Cyborg Pigeon six-shooting its way through Rome.

They're called Adventure Paths for a reason.

Now I'm confused. I thought the point/argument was that you couldn't play a Cyborg Pigeon unless you were one.  So I'll just remove that section from your post to leave

Quote
They gather round the table and the GM jerks them off while they imagine the amazingadventures of their Cyborg Pigeon six-shooting its way through Rome.

Now I understand what the problem is.....

Quote from: jhkim on November 13, 2020, 05:47:54 PM
I haven't been able to find posts from those originally expressing criticism of Mercer's casting, though. It was frustrating to me that Pundit didn't post to what he was talking about - but from your link, Matt and Chris do the same thing, not linking to who they're speaking about. I guess it's just the norm for Internet discussion these days, but it runs against my preferences.

It's the norm here because The Pundit is just lazy. It's the norm elsewhere because many sites now consider sharing #Tweets to be brigading/harassment unless the poster has over some arbitrary number of followers. In general it's becoming far more difficult to hold people accountable or know what the rules even are.

---

But since you're curious:

🎲 Daniel Kwan (https://archive.is/NGzMG), of Asians Represent, best known for trying to shove Oriental Adventures down the memory hole. They wrote the Chinese history section of the game in question. They believe 'white people' shouldn't play Chinese characters without a lot of time and preparation.

🎲 Sara Thompson (https://archive.is/lZGO2), creator of the combat wheelchair, who is not confined to a wheelchair, and thinks all doorways in D&D should be 5'. They were more than happy when Matt Mercer shared their invention with his followers despite also not being confined to a wheelchair. They believe 'white people' shouldn't play Chinese characters at all.

🎲 Haley Kugler (https://archive.is/5rArz), a 'literally who' Sara felt important enough to reference in their statemen above. They believe 'white people' playing Chinese characters is digital yellow face.

---

And my takeaways are the following:

🎲 Radical #SJWs like Chris (https://archive.is/Lq0uz), Ajit (https://archive.is/PJ8kY), and Matt are now being replaced by even more radical members of the very culture they helped create, which at this point is dominated by clout chasing narcissists, neurotics, and the occasional sociopath. They did not eliminate the toxic elements when they had the chance, and now it's too late.

🎲 These next gen #SJWs have successfully silenced a #POC from running the game they wrote, and created chilling effects which will prevent others (esp 'white people') from playing it, which may in fact be their goal.

🎲 Both Daniel and Sara turned on the very people who paid for and promoted their work, fully demonstrating that not only is appeasing them not enough, but getting them directly involved will only make you more vulnerable, not less, regardless of how marginalized you are.

I am quite taken aback by these people making their business of what strangers can and cannot do at their (private) TTRPG where they are not players. I also wonder which Daniel Kwan is allowed to have a not Chinese first name since he feels than genetic heritage is so important to determine what a person is allowed to do. This Kind of cultural appropriation should not be tolerated  ;).

In other words, the Purity Spiral continues to its logical conclusion... you either hit the limit of your tolerance for insanity and bail out (in politics this is being Red Pilled; you are now an oppressor according to the SJW worldview but no longer give a frack) or the few who ride it all the way into the event horizon end up locked up somewhere for the safety of themselves and others as they rock in their white jackets that they say are just the final manifestation of the white patriarchy in between their endless shrieking of REEEEEE!

At some point the last lunatic at The Big Purple and these spiraling game outfits is going to ban/fire the second to last lunatic and then have conversations with the voices in their heads until the money to keep it going runs out.

Meanwhile the sane and recently Red Pilled will look for the Parler/MeWe equivalents of their gaming media because if there's one thing we're good at, it's adapting.

So, uh... I had a good time this weekend. My best buddy's young boys have joined the group and are rapidly acclimating to the game (the younger takes a little patience but eh, we're all old hands). One is playing an elven ranger, the other a human barbarian. Shall I demand they play children instead of their PCs?

Seriously, these people need to be chased out of the industry, or at least out of the hobby.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on November 16, 2020, 06:47:02 AM
🎲 Daniel Kwan (https://archive.is/NGzMG), of Asians Represent, best known for trying to shove Oriental Adventures down the memory hole. They wrote the Chinese history section of the game in question. They believe 'white people' shouldn't play Chinese characters without a lot of time and preparation.

🎲 Sara Thompson (https://archive.is/lZGO2), creator of the combat wheelchair, who is not confined to a wheelchair, and thinks all doorways in D&D should be 5'. They were more than happy when Matt Mercer shared their invention with his followers despite also not being confined to a wheelchair. They believe 'white people' shouldn't play Chinese characters at all.

🎲 Haley Kugler (https://archive.is/5rArz), a 'literally who' Sara felt important enough to reference in their statemen above. They believe 'white people' playing Chinese characters is digital yellow face.
<snip>

Holy fuck it must be tedious to game with these people, if they even game at all.

I imagine it's something like this scene from Life of Brian:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUBAx8jbYNs

One of the ironies (and there are many, as well as many contradictions) is that by fencing off certain races/classes/settings, they are destroying the possibility of teaching tolerance by way of empathy. You would think if they were honestly trying to create more tolerance in the world, they would encourage more people to play disadvantaged characters.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 16, 2020, 08:38:35 AM
Seriously, these people need to be chased out of the industry, or at least out of the hobby. civilized society.

Put them where they can harm no one, and have no channel by which they can be heard. Let those who would voice compassion on their behalf commit to be their permanent caretakers, and be held accountable for any harm they do.

Do these people who would impose their own morals and values upon everyone else and dictate what we can or can not do in the privacy of our own homes like the same done to them? I was told the other day to get a moral compass for striving to be apolitical and not choosing a side. I am not worried about living my life according to the morals or values of other people, if I was handed a moral compass (if such things were real) I would smash it on the nearest rock anyway. For these people who would impose their beliefs on others do not see that they are exactly the monsters that they claim to hate and fight and be better than. They are no better than the 'nazis' they see behind every corner, striving to control, manipulate, dictate to, and if need be, dismiss, deplatform and dehumanize.

One can choose to rush to kneel before them or stand on their own.

I really do hope that Matt Mercer doesn't introduce any non-white, non-human NPCs in any of his future Critical Role games. Coz he'd have to roleplay these marginalized minorities to some extent, and he's already admitted that that's problematic for him, so, y'know, good luck with being a half competent DM from now on. I also hope he vets the cast members who play on his streams too, to make sure they're not playing something that denies a POC a voice or position in the game.

Because otherwise he could be accused of being a fucking hypocrite, and I'm sure he don't want that.

Quote from: BrokenCounsel on November 16, 2020, 12:32:43 PM
I really do hope that Matt Mercer doesn't introduce any non-white, non-human NPCs in any of his future Critical Role games.

For extra absurdity, add in non-male (assuming MM identifies as male), non-disabled, non-English-speaking, and a few dozen more forbidden categories. Soon, all of his NPCs will be GM inserts of himself, because that's all that will be left open to him.

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 16, 2020, 01:07:08 PMSoon, all of his NPCs will be GM inserts of himself, because that's all that will be left open to him.

Now that is hilarious. The natural progression of this particular brand of lunacy

One other aspect that my meandering, abstract brain seized upon- Why exactly are they barring this? Are they saying that EVERY imagined world carries the EXACT SAME baggage as our world? If so they are latching onto every single DM/GM/etc and every writer's own created world and assuring us that every created/imagined world is plagued by every ill of our own world. It is pretty amazing to think of the audacity of saying that you know that every person can only imprint their escapist, imaginary universe with our world from 1694-2020 and its flaws and mistakes. And that every law of our world (like orcs cannot only be evil) MUST be true and absolute with no deviancy.

Quote from: rytrasmi on November 16, 2020, 10:31:49 AM

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on November 16, 2020, 06:47:02 AM
🎲 Daniel Kwan (https://archive.is/NGzMG), of Asians Represent, best known for trying to shove Oriental Adventures down the memory hole. They wrote the Chinese history section of the game in question. They believe 'white people' shouldn't play Chinese characters without a lot of time and preparation.

🎲 Sara Thompson (https://archive.is/lZGO2), creator of the combat wheelchair, who is not confined to a wheelchair, and thinks all doorways in D&D should be 5'. They were more than happy when Matt Mercer shared their invention with his followers despite also not being confined to a wheelchair. They believe 'white people' shouldn't play Chinese characters at all.

🎲 Haley Kugler (https://archive.is/5rArz), a 'literally who' Sara felt important enough to reference in their statemen above. They believe 'white people' playing Chinese characters is digital yellow face.
<snip>

Holy fuck it must be tedious to game with these people, if they even game at all.

I imagine it's something like this scene from Life of Brian:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUBAx8jbYNs

One of the ironies (and there are many, as well as many contradictions) is that by fencing off certain races/classes/settings, they are destroying the possibility of teaching tolerance by way of empathy. You would think if they were honestly trying to create more tolerance in the world, they would encourage more people to play disadvantaged characters.

It's deeply deeply stupid.

This sort of attitude basically inevitably makes rpgs more white not less and more European in their inspiration.

Basically there's a simple arithmetic.  Why would you now publish something like the Hordlelands or Kara-Tur or Kindred of the East?  For one thing you'd be opening a huge hornets nest as every up and coming grifter looking to make their name will be poring through your book for the slightest mistep or making one up if they can't find one.  And hiring the last generation as 'consultants' is just a waste of time - the next generation make space for themselves precisely by making out their predecessors to be just another symptom of the problem (this pattern became obvious to me when I took a development studies subject 20 years ago).

And of course, if you're going around accusing people of digital yellowface or blackface, then you're threatening to dramatically cut the audience for such products (because, of course, you also can't play a white person in a non-white setting - as that would be the 'white saviour' trope).

So it will be generic eurocentric Forgotten Realms or similar to the end of time. (With random superficial diversity tacked on).

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on November 16, 2020, 06:47:02 AM
But since you're curious:

🎲 Daniel Kwan (https://archive.is/NGzMG), of Asians Represent, best known for trying to shove Oriental Adventures down the memory hole. They wrote the Chinese history section of the game in question. They believe 'white people' shouldn't play Chinese characters without a lot of time and preparation.

🎲 Sara Thompson (https://archive.is/lZGO2), creator of the combat wheelchair, who is not confined to a wheelchair, and thinks all doorways in D&D should be 5'. They were more than happy when Matt Mercer shared their invention with his followers despite also not being confined to a wheelchair. They believe 'white people' shouldn't play Chinese characters at all.

🎲 Haley Kugler (https://archive.is/5rArz), a 'literally who' Sara felt important enough to reference in their statemen above. They believe 'white people' playing Chinese characters is digital yellow face.

---

And my takeaways are the following:

🎲 Radical #SJWs like Chris (https://archive.is/Lq0uz), Ajit (https://archive.is/PJ8kY), and Matt are now being replaced by even more radical members of the very culture they helped create, which at this point is dominated by clout chasing narcissists, neurotics, and the occasional sociopath. They did not eliminate the toxic elements when they had the chance, and now it's too late.

🎲 These next gen #SJWs have successfully silenced a #POC from running the game they wrote, and created chilling effects which will prevent others (esp 'white people') from playing it, which may in fact be their goal.

🎲 Both Daniel and Sara turned on the very people who paid for and promoted their work, fully demonstrating that not only is appeasing them not enough, but getting them directly involved will only make you more vulnerable, not less, regardless of how marginalized you are.

Thanks, Anon. I brought the up in a private group with some overlap of the people mentioned. I agree that there is a more radical faction than Chris and Ajit. In general, though, there's always a more radical faction than whoever is currently dominant. It's not clear to me that the more radical faction are winning overall, but then, I don't hang out on Twitter.

It seems some people expressed that it was about it being a video livestream rather than about private RPG play. i.e. It's fine for white players to play Asian characters in a private game, but doing so for a broadcast livestream is different. But the point of livestreaming is that it's supposed to follow the rules of how the game is actually played, not just be a themed TV show.

Quote from: TJS on November 16, 2020, 03:07:37 PM

This sort of attitude basically inevitably makes rpgs more white not less and more European in their inspiration.

Basically there's a simple arithmetic.  Why would you now publish something like the Hordlelands or Kara-Tur or Kindred of the East?  For one thing you'd be opening a huge hornets nest as every up and coming grifter looking to make their name will be poring through your book for the slightest mistep or making one up if they can't find one.  And hiring the last generation as 'consultants' is just a waste of time - the next generation make space for themselves precisely by making out their predecessors to be just another symptom of the problem (this pattern became obvious to me when I took a development studies subject 20 years ago).

And of course, if you're going around accusing people of digital yellowface or blackface, then you're threatening to dramatically cut the audience for such products (because, of course, you also can't play a white person in a non-white setting - as that would be the 'white saviour' trope).

So it will be generic eurocentric Forgotten Realms or similar to the end of time. (With random superficial diversity tacked on).

Yeah, wasn't there just another "controversy" that too many players in BG3 were playing white males?

Which way do they want it? Are we supposed to branch out and play other races or stay in our lane?

Quote from: TJS on November 16, 2020, 03:07:37 PM
generic eurocentric Forgotten Realms or similar to the end of time. (With random superficial diversity tacked on).

Wait wait wait a sec, hold the phone. Sorry, that won't fly. Generic Eurocentric systems are cultural appropriation of a historically disadvantaged people. Europe was a cultural and scientific backwater compared to China and the Arabic world in the middle ages. I'm afraid anyone without sufficient cultural context won't be able to play most human classes, and certainly not Barbarians as that is just a baldfaced insult. Berserker rage anyone? Highly problematic and insensitive.

Seriously though, I couldn't agree more.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on November 16, 2020, 06:47:02 AM

Quote from: jhkim on November 13, 2020, 05:47:54 PM
I haven't been able to find posts from those originally expressing criticism of Mercer's casting, though. It was frustrating to me that Pundit didn't post to what he was talking about - but from your link, Matt and Chris do the same thing, not linking to who they're speaking about. I guess it's just the norm for Internet discussion these days, but it runs against my preferences.

It's the norm here because The Pundit is just lazy. It's the norm elsewhere because many sites now consider sharing #Tweets to be brigading/harassment unless the poster has over some arbitrary number of followers. In general it's becoming far more difficult to hold people accountable or know what the rules even are.

---

But since you're curious:

🎲 Daniel Kwan (https://archive.is/NGzMG), of Asians Represent, best known for trying to shove Oriental Adventures down the memory hole. They wrote the Chinese history section of the game in question. They believe 'white people' shouldn't play Chinese characters without a lot of time and preparation.

🎲 Sara Thompson (https://archive.is/lZGO2), creator of the combat wheelchair, who is not confined to a wheelchair, and thinks all doorways in D&D should be 5'. They were more than happy when Matt Mercer shared their invention with his followers despite also not being confined to a wheelchair. They believe 'white people' shouldn't play Chinese characters at all.

🎲 Haley Kugler (https://archive.is/5rArz), a 'literally who' Sara felt important enough to reference in their statemen above. They believe 'white people' playing Chinese characters is digital yellow face.

---

And my takeaways are the following:

🎲 Radical #SJWs like Chris (https://archive.is/Lq0uz), Ajit (https://archive.is/PJ8kY), and Matt are now being replaced by even more radical members of the very culture they helped create, which at this point is dominated by clout chasing narcissists, neurotics, and the occasional sociopath. They did not eliminate the toxic elements when they had the chance, and now it's too late.

🎲 These next gen #SJWs have successfully silenced a #POC from running the game they wrote, and created chilling effects which will prevent others (esp 'white people') from playing it, which may in fact be their goal.

🎲 Both Daniel and Sara turned on the very people who paid for and promoted their work, fully demonstrating that not only is appeasing them not enough, but getting them directly involved will only make you more vulnerable, not less, regardless of how marginalized you are.

This is why I can afford to be lazy! Well done.

In my books, one of the major cultures I created was a merger of Japanese (post-WW2), mixed with a culture that can only be described as pre-First Dynasty Ancient Egyptian. This is entirely fictional. But the resulting village is where most of my main characters come from.

An equivalent doesn't really exist in the real world. But the research for this culture I did a lot of work on over the ensuing years. And I intend this culture to be a part of an RPG setting once I'm ready for that.

I put a lot of hard work into that culture and its traditions. And the idea that some moron could just come up and tell someone they can't play a member of that culture because they are not of that culture makes me flabbergasted. And shows me that the person making such a demand has no grasp on the separation of fantasy and reality.

The sheer idiocy of such a demand just amazes me.

It's an attack on the entirety of the media. Not just RPGs. But authors as well.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley on November 15, 2020, 07:44:56 PM
Also, I don't game for an audience. It's just for my game groups.

I think the GM in this case invited a lot of trouble by having a live audience. You can never predict what a live audience will do. Or really what effect they will have on the activity at hand.

Even the convention games I run tend to be in private rooms. Instead of being out in the wild.

In today's climate, that is a wise policy. (In fact, I would take it a step further and don't game with anyone I don't know pretty well, or have someone I trust vouch for them.)

Quote from: jhkim on November 16, 2020, 03:21:36 PM
It seems some people expressed that it was about it being a video livestream rather than about private RPG play. i.e. It's fine for white players to play Asian characters in a private game, but doing so for a broadcast livestream is different. But the point of livestreaming is that it's supposed to follow the rules of how the game is actually played, not just be a themed TV show.

It makes you wonder why these predominately white people (SJW's) should make that distinction? I mean by their own inclinations it seems that they're completely obsessed with the appearance of others races, contrasted with their own self-loathing/hatred of 'white people', it really just shows their own racism.

Meanwhile normal people will just roleplay and have fun and not worry about what people think of their appearance

Quote from: bat on November 16, 2020, 02:42:33 PM
One other aspect that my meandering, abstract brain seized upon- Why exactly are they barring this? Are they saying that EVERY imagined world carries the EXACT SAME baggage as our world? If so they are latching onto every single DM/GM/etc and every writer's own created world and assuring us that every created/imagined world is plagued by every ill of our own world. It is pretty amazing to think of the audacity of saying that you know that every person can only imprint their escapist, imaginary universe with our world from 1694-2020 and its flaws and mistakes. And that every law of our world (like orcs cannot only be evil) MUST be true and absolute with no deviancy.

Pretty much. There really is no limit to how insane the hallucinations of these sociopaths will get.

Got orcs in your setting as the main race? Well that is verboten because orcs are really oppreseded africans and you are WACIST for using them!
Got a setting of only rabbits? Well that is verboten because rabbits are really the oppreseded chinese and you are WACIST for using them!
Cot a setting where everyone is a featureless cube? Well that is verboten because cubes are really the oppreseded women and you are WACIST for using them!

You monster!

No. Really. If at least one of these fruitcakes has not spouted one of the above allready then they likely will soon enough. And guess what? That is correct. TWO of the three have already been.

Insert-your-deity-here wept.

Quote from: Joey2k on November 16, 2020, 03:29:02 PMYeah, wasn't there just another "controversy" that too many players in BG3 were playing white males?

Which way do they want it? Are we supposed to branch out and play other races or stay in our lane?

Both. You literally can not win.
Represent or play the race. Then you are WACIST!
Dont represent the race or play it. Then you are WACIST!

Quote from: Omega on November 16, 2020, 10:00:23 PM

Quote from: Joey2k on November 16, 2020, 03:29:02 PMYeah, wasn't there just another "controversy" that too many players in BG3 were playing white males?

Which way do they want it? Are we supposed to branch out and play other races or stay in our lane?

Both. You literally can not win.
Represent or play the race. Then you are WACIST!
Dont represent the race or play it. Then you are WACIST!

It is wiser to never apologize and tell these people to fuck off.  At least they would know your not a pushover to be exploited.  They will hate you for it, but they already hate you anyway.

Quote from: Snowman0147 on November 16, 2020, 10:08:46 PM

Quote from: Omega on November 16, 2020, 10:00:23 PM

Quote from: Joey2k on November 16, 2020, 03:29:02 PMYeah, wasn't there just another "controversy" that too many players in BG3 were playing white males?

Which way do they want it? Are we supposed to branch out and play other races or stay in our lane?

Both. You literally can not win.
Represent or play the race. Then you are WACIST!
Dont represent the race or play it. Then you are WACIST!

It is wiser to never apologize and tell these people to fuck off.  At least they would know your not a pushover to be exploited.  They will hate you for it, but they already hate you anyway.

This.

There's a reason why a common theme in redpill advice is to not bother to apologize. Because it doesn't help.

Why? Because normal, mature, sane people have this mechanism, lifted from various religions: reconciliation. Forgiveness. Yes, I know, some sins are impossible to forgive, but we're not swimming in that end of the pool here.

You accidentally bump up against someone else, psychologically. They say 'Hey, please don't do that.' You say, 'Oh, okay, sorry. What's wrong?' And then you hash it out like adults, and come to a compromise, or you part ways because the difference is irreconcilable. But the latter's rare.

But for radical leftist, critical race theory, etc, there is no mechanism for forgiveness. Nothing you do can appease them. Nothing you do will make them happy, except for you dying (metaphorically in most cases, and literally in rarer ones). There is no way to win their game. The only winning move is not to play.

So when someone goes off the deep end like that, the best response is to tell them to go fuck themselves, and don't bother you again.

Quote from: bat on November 16, 2020, 02:42:33 PM
One other aspect that my meandering, abstract brain seized upon- Why exactly are they barring this? Are they saying that EVERY imagined world carries the EXACT SAME baggage as our world? If so they are latching onto every single DM/GM/etc and every writer's own created world and assuring us that every created/imagined world is plagued by every ill of our own world. It is pretty amazing to think of the audacity of saying that you know that every person can only imprint their escapist, imaginary universe with our world from 1694-2020 and its flaws and mistakes. And that every law of our world (like orcs cannot only be evil) MUST be true and absolute with no deviancy.

They fundamentally don't believe in (or even understand) the basic idea of worldbuilding.  This is why the games they make are so damned flimsy.

It's a horrendously reductionist worldview.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 16, 2020, 10:35:59 PM


There's a reason why a common theme in redpill advice is to not bother to apologize. Because it doesn't help.

To a Stalinist, apologizing is just an admission of guilt and requires punishment.

Quote from: Omega on November 16, 2020, 10:00:23 PM

Quote from: Joey2k on November 16, 2020, 03:29:02 PMYeah, wasn't there just another "controversy" that too many players in BG3 were playing white males?

Which way do they want it? Are we supposed to branch out and play other races or stay in our lane?

Both. You literally can not win.
Represent or play the race. Then you are WACIST!
Dont represent the race or play it. Then you are WACIST!

Their definition of racist does not count behavior.  He's a white male, therefore he's racist.

You exist, therefore you are racist.

Remember Sarkesian's initial spearhead of her hate campaign was "Everything is Racist, Everything is Sexist." etc ad nausium.

Yeah, extremes do exist. In discussing this topic elsewhere, I had someone tell me that by having non-white pre-generated PCs in convention games, I was promoting racism - because it gave permission for white people to play them and express whatever that they thought about minorities. They did allow that it was not a big issue if it happened in private games. They locked discussion after that point for being non-productive.

Quote from: jhkim on November 20, 2020, 10:43:49 AM
Yeah, extremes do exist. In discussing this topic elsewhere, I had someone tell me that by having non-white pre-generated PCs in convention games, I was promoting racism - because it gave permission for white people to play them and express whatever that they thought about minorities. They did allow that it was not a big issue if it happened in private games. They locked discussion after that point for being non-productive.

So basically... if you have non-white pre-gens you're racist, but if you have only white pre-gens you're also a racist. If you have female pre-gens you're sexist, but if you have only male pre-gens you're also sexist. If you have gay pre-gens you're a homophobe, if you have no gay pre-gens you're a homophobe.

The only way to win is not to play.

(https://i.imgur.com/yEKnvCr.jpg)

Quote from: tenbones on November 20, 2020, 12:33:43 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/yEKnvCr.jpg)

Related to the circle of diversity is the truism that any organization that isn't specifically built to reject leftism inevitably slides to the left.

In the case of businesses, any company that wishes to sell to everyone will inevitably start to bend to the demands of the Left because the Leftists are the loudest and they worry their noise will start to drive away other customers and they have the always mistaken belief that the self-loathing jackasses will one day be satisfied. Eventually they end up so far to the Left that the mainstream abandons them and then they HAVE to cater to the ever more insane demands of the Left or lose all the customers they still have.

This describes the collapse of WotC and Paizo and White Wolf to a tee. The ONLY way for an RPG company to avoid this fate is A) always own your IP and make sure heirs aren't little Leftards in training, B) tell any SJW who complains to frack off, and C) dare the little turds to try and cancel you because if they do it's free advertising.

The Most Intolerant Wins: The Dictatorship of the Small Minority.
https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dictatorship-of-the-small-minority-3f1f83ce4e15 (https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dictatorship-of-the-small-minority-3f1f83ce4e15)

I'm no expert, but I find the concept of policing creativity to be anathema to the human spirit. Hyperbolic in this situation, certainly, but also I believe  true.  And isn't that the most oppressive prison of all, when you can force someone to inhibit their own imagination?

How insidious is the desire to coopt the prisoner into being his own jailor?  This desire to control the imagination is also aimed at more than just players, I think the real desire is to exert that same power upstream and intimidate the designers of games as well. It's so ... twisted.

Quote from: TJS on November 20, 2020, 04:13:04 PM

The Most Intolerant Wins: The Dictatorship of the Small Minority.
https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dictatorship-of-the-small-minority-3f1f83ce4e15 (https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dictatorship-of-the-small-minority-3f1f83ce4e15)

Except, as the article notes, when the wishes of the intolerant minority run too counter to the moral beliefs of the majority.

Ex.  it doesn't matter what size minority favors pedophilia; the act is so morally repellent to the majority (I know people who would seriously call shoving one alive feet first into a woodchipper to be a lawful good act) that it will never become something the majority tolerates.

Which returns to my point. If you don't want your RPG company overrun by Leftists, you need to build it to find the Leftist mentality morally repugnant (generally requiring you to have absolute control of your IP vs. licensed from another source, ensuring your successors also maintain the anti-Leftist sentiment and that you rightly tell any Leftist who whines about your games to frack off.

Quote from: Ted on November 20, 2020, 05:49:09 PM
I'm no expert, but I find the concept of policing creativity to be anathema to the human spirit. Hyperbolic in this situation, certainly, but also I believe  true.  And isn't that the most oppressive prison of all, when you can force someone to inhibit their own imagination?

How insidious is the desire to coopt the prisoner into being his own jailor?  This desire to control the imagination is also aimed at more than just players, I think the real desire is to exert that same power upstream and intimidate the designers of games as well. It's so ... twisted.

100% agree. You've succinctly stated what I've been thinking far more eloquently that I could have.

The R in RPG is about the freedom to play with ideas and beliefs you may not actually hold in real life and - gasp - ideas and beliefs that you might disagree with or even find immoral/unethical.

The creativity police want the R to be used for indoctrination. Hence, I propose we call such games IPGs, Indoctrination Playing Games or Ideology Playing Games.

Quote from: Chris24601 on November 20, 2020, 12:06:55 PM
So basically... if you have non-white pre-gens you're racist, but if you have only non-white pre-gens you're also a racist. If you have female pre-gens you're sexist, but if you have only female pre-gens you're also sexist. If you have gay pre-gens you're a homophobe, if you have only gay pre-gens you're a homophobe.


The only way to win is not to play.

Fixed that for you. And I've seen every one of the above spouted. Several by the queen of insane Sarkesian herself. And then parroted by her bootlickers.

Man, I will not change anything, not one thing, to appease people who are not sitting at my table. And I've allowed entirely player created races with wierd physical features or skills/powers and even stranger vulnerabilities. Imagine playing a gibering mouther with tourettes...now imagine the smell.

Quote from: Slipshot762 on November 21, 2020, 07:19:11 PM
Imagine playing a gibering mouther with tourettes...now imagine the smell.

I recall one shopper in a game store that wanted to tell me all about his character...I think that may be a IRL example.

Quote from: Chris24601 on November 20, 2020, 12:06:55 PMThe only way to win is not to play.

I disagree.

There's telling SJWs to fuck off.

Bluntly and with total clarity.

They need to be told FUCK OFF and people need to proceed doing whatever they want to do. Whether that's at their game table, their Thanksgiving dinner or their business.

And if the SJWs try their cancel culture bullshit, then we have to use the Streisand effect to make sure the target gains more success from the attack. Buy the "banned books" and support their enemies while denying your resources and your time from their allies.

Just do what we're already doing and continue having fun doing it.

Quote from: Spinachcat on November 21, 2020, 11:42:29 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on November 20, 2020, 12:06:55 PMThe only way to win is not to play.

I disagree.

There's telling SJWs to fuck off.

Bluntly and with total clarity.

They need to be told FUCK OFF and people need to proceed doing whatever they want to do. Whether that's at their game table, their Thanksgiving dinner or their business.

And if the SJWs try their cancel culture bullshit, then we have to use the Streisand effect to make sure the target gains more success from the attack. Buy the "banned books" and support their enemies while denying your resources and your time from their allies.

I would argue that 'fuck off' is the same as not playing. You're not trying to engage with them. You're just preemptively ending any attempt by them to get a foot in the door by shoving a (rhetorical) shotgun into their face.

It's certainly more satisfying, I won't lie.

In the big picture - I don't care.

For those that want to "play" like that? Have at it, retards. I don't give my money to those companies that promote this shit. And that's on them.

I got PUH-lenty of games to run and play. And I figure their asshattery will be the proverbial Gom-Jabbar that will turn people away from them to people like me that want to actually roleplay without those stupid considerations, and have "better" fun.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 22, 2020, 03:51:07 PMI would argue that 'fuck off' is the same as not playing. You're not trying to engage with them. 

It's not the same because walking away quietly doesn't let the SJW clowns and onlookers know that pushback can and does exist. I'm not for fading away quietly.

Live and let live is ONLY works when both sides agree to do so.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 22, 2020, 03:51:07 PMYou're just preemptively ending any attempt by them to get a foot in the door by shoving a (rhetorical) shotgun into their face.

YES! This is why FUCK OFF is crucial pushback.

SJWs believe (with good reason) that fading away quietly equals their victory and your subservience. It only emboldens them to see what else you will give up publicly and wander away to "silently protest".

Extremists are all the same. They will expand their demands and get louder and more vicious about your compliance whenever they are given an inch. Just ask any secular Muslim who escaped from a country that fell to Islamic extremists. It's a story told in the pictures of Pakistan's streets from the 60s to today.

Give them nothing or they will take everything from us all.

Our silly elf game hobby is just a microcosm of the larger cultural struggle, and the same rules apply. Enough acts of submission and we'll find ourselves without a hobby we recognize or can participate in publicly.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 22, 2020, 03:51:07 PM
I would argue that 'fuck off' is the same as not playing. You're not trying to engage with them. You're just preemptively ending any attempt by them to get a foot in the door by shoving a (rhetorical) shotgun into their face.

It's certainly more satisfying, I won't lie.

No. It is not the same as not playing. Unless you mean "not playing the SJW cult game of organized insane" in which case correct. Otherwise Wrong.

We have learned over and over and over and over and over to the fucking Nth degree that YOU CAN NEVER REASON WITH THEM.  Ever. Nothing you say will change their cult beliefs. And more likely will give them "proof" of your raciszm, sexizm, naziizm, ismism, and whatever else they are hallucinating today or tomorrow.

Provoking this kind of reaction is exactly what they are after. In fact, it's all they are after. It's classic troll behaviour. They sure as hell aren't interested in the games.

Quote from: Omega on November 22, 2020, 06:05:00 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 22, 2020, 03:51:07 PM
I would argue that 'fuck off' is the same as not playing. You're not trying to engage with them. You're just preemptively ending any attempt by them to get a foot in the door by shoving a (rhetorical) shotgun into their face.

It's certainly more satisfying, I won't lie.

No. It is not the same as not playing. Unless you mean "not playing the SJW cult game of organized insane" in which case correct.

Which was what I, the OP of that statement, meant. You win by refusing to  play their game (as should be obvious from my comments in other threads where I said you need to build your RPG company to specifically resist the influence of SJWs).

While "Frack you!" can be satisfying, they can just claim you're a hateful bigot who doesn't care... its not as obvious you're rejecting their premise and they're free to assign malign motives to you.

If some SJW came screaming at me for daring to include an Asian-influenced region in my book ("Appropriation!!! REEE!!! REE!!!") my reply would be to calmly state "I reject that appreciating different cultures can be racist."

Not only do you reject them, you also now require them to justify that appreciating other cultures isn't the good you believe it to be.

They'll absolutely do that... no doubt, but you aren't trying to persuade them... just make their REEEing look more ridiculous to anyone else observing.

Don't play their games... pretend they don't exist and didn't even speak in public spaces (that ticks them off even worse than a reaction) and if you must answer, refuse to accept the basic premise of their claims.

I was a little vague in my response. I'm not saying 'don't play the game', especially YOUR game.

Don't play the SJW game. Yes, 'fuck off' and kicking them out is a perfectly legitimate response.

I generally just ignore them. That drives them crazy, because it's one thing to get a 'fuck off' reaction. They still get the cheap dopamine rush (despite now being locked out), but being treated like a piece of garden furniture freaks a lot of them out.

Sometimes, the best trick is to provoke them into stepping over the line and triggering what amounts to a social 'immune reaction' from the larger group. This requires a fair bit of finesse though, and it might be easier to just, yes, tell them to fuck off. :)

I'm curious to how many people angry at this development actually support 5e monetarily still?

Quote from: tenbones on November 23, 2020, 12:24:32 PM
I'm curious to how many people angry at this development actually support 5e monetarily still?

This presumes I ever monetarily supported them. I started my developing my own system specifically in reaction to 5e and the few times I ever experienced 5e I used a friend's books.

*Shrug* I bought one 5E game product and one accessory, and am looking to sell the game product off. (Anyone want a gently used copy of Curse of Strahd, 1st printing?) Right now, I'm leaning towards smaller companies and swinging between buying OSR, BRP, and Savage Worlds stuff. :)

I wonder if we can convince them Class is classist.

I bought the 5E Essentials set, read through half the character creation section, saw it was more of the same fiddly nonsense that had made me drop D&D during the 3.5 era, and promptly resold it.  I'd consider getting back on board if they ever got back to basics while bringing in some more consistency and polish. But several OSR games have already accomplished that for me, so it'll be a tough sell.

For the record - when 5e dropped, I bought several copies of the PHB, DMG and MM, both for my personal use, a set for reference in some designwork I was doing - and sets for gifts.

So I'm not trying to shit on anyone for having done so in the past. However once WotC went beyond my tolerance levels, I did give all my 5e stuff away. I do find it interesting (purely intellectually) that a lot of people still consume 5e in various forms, while being castigated broadly by developers of WotC who put their stamp of approval on politically motivated material in their works which, to me, has helped ruin the brand.

This is why *none* of these videos Pundit puts out surprises me. I enjoy them for the ludicrousness of what they are. But the fact is it will never stop until people stop supporting them.

See: DC Comics, Marvel Comics and the forthcoming year.

I do get that it's fun to take a hot steamer on the latest "controversy" and I'm all on board when the mood suits me. But when it comes to my gold-expenditure, I take pause. Because at the end of the day, this is their ultimate lifeline. And I wonder if I'm alone in this sentiment? I'm not recruiting or anything, this is purely my own opinion borne not just of WotC - but of all of pop-culture.

I'm simply not going to support these agendas - I've crossed out several major pastimes from companies that have crossed such lines for me. And I'm a *whale* when it comes to my hobbies. I'm *all in* they should be courting people like me (how difficult can it be to not be political and reap lots of my cash?) - so I feel good knowing that my resources won't go to these places any longer. There is *zero* assumption on my part any of these companies will change course.

I still GM 5e D&D. I try not to buy SJW-inflected 5e products. Basically anything from when Crawford took control of the game.

Recently I've not bought any WoTC published 5e stuff at all. The last WoTC thing I bought was some Roll20 Tiles about 6-7 months ago.

Sometime between mid-summer and now I went from "no more purchases of 5E stuff" to "not only no purchases but probably not going to run it much, if at all, and am telling both groups why."  I'm not ruling it out entirely, because I've got the core books and a nice campaign built up with it.  I'd hate to let all those players down (20+ in multiple campaigns).  So I expect when we can get together, I'll try to run a few more sessions to end the campaigns on a good note.  After that, I've got better uses of my gaming time.

I'm way past the angry stage on this to where I'm almost completely uninterested in anything they do or say.  5E was always for me a not perfect but good enough game that it was easy to get other people on board with.  But I've never had any trouble starting a game of anything that interested me enough to run it.  The people in my groups will be pretty happy for me to hand them some rules (mine) for free instead of needing to buy something. 

Way to go WotC.  You made me so apathetic about your product that I finally got off my butt and wrote rules that I like better than yours.  Congratulations.

Quote from: tenbones on November 23, 2020, 12:24:32 PM
I'm curious to how many people angry at this development actually support 5e monetarily still?

Ehhh, my group is still playing 5e.  We don't spend much on their products (we prefer ... going a'viking when we get curious as to what the newest class option stuff is) and we run our own adventures.  It'd be nice to be able to use the WotC published adventures, but they are both woke and mostly disjointed garbage.  I've got enough casuals in my group that we won't be moving on anytime soon...

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on November 23, 2020, 02:55:08 PMWay to go WotC.  You made me so apathetic about your product that I finally got off my butt and wrote rules that I like better than yours.  Congratulations.

This has been my condition since TSR circa 1978.

Edit: Not that I was apathetic - but that I thought it could be done better. Modern WotC's take on D&D is like trying to get me excited about some dance-trend on Tik-Tok. "Apathy" would be too strong. I look at it like some trendy thing young kids are into that goes so far under my radar, I just shrug and remember "Well I used to remember when marbles was a thing."... Of course the social media and political stuff in D&D's orbit makes those marbles smell like they came out of someone's asshole.

Quote from: Slambo on November 23, 2020, 01:33:28 PMI wonder if we can convince them Class is classist.

No doubt! If races are racist, classes must be classist.

Quote from: tenbones on November 23, 2020, 12:24:32 PMI'm curious to how many people angry at this development actually support 5e monetarily still?

Zero of my dollars will cross their palms.

BUT...the stupidity of the 800lb retarded gorilla causes trouble far beyond Seattle.

I have always enjoyed and promoted PUBLIC play of RPGs (FLGS game days, local cons, big cons, etc) and my concern is this stupidity will filter its way into public play events via their loyal idiots feeling empowered to "make rules" for everyone's "safety and inclusion".

It's yet another crack in the unity of the hobby community which will only lead to conventions and gatherings that are defined by where you stand in the culture war.

Quote from: tenbones on November 23, 2020, 03:45:23 PMOf course the social media and political stuff in D&D's orbit makes those marbles smell like they came out of someone's asshole.

Quote from: tenbones on November 23, 2020, 12:24:32 PM
I'm curious to how many people angry at this development actually support 5e monetarily still?

Angry is a bit strong.

Disappointed maybe.

Quote from: Shasarak on November 23, 2020, 07:53:03 PM

Quote from: tenbones on November 23, 2020, 12:24:32 PM
I'm curious to how many people angry at this development actually support 5e monetarily still?

Angry is a bit strong.

Disappointed maybe.

I used to be angry. Then I was disappointed. Now I simply don't care.

I was angry because like many of the dumb directions pop-culture has taken (which infects a lot of the stuff we share) it was/is *totally unnecessary* aside from the strife it causes in various circles.

Disappointment came when it became totally clear that beyond the marketing mistakes that all this shit was purely ideological, so much so that those caught in the gravitational well of it even ate their own principles dignity out of financial self-interest in the hopes they could turn it around (and this is a best case scenario I don't really believe).

Not caring happened slowly after I realized that the elements of D&D I do use, and prefer (1e, 2e) are very very much in use. I never stopped using them in 3e. I skipped 4e altogether. And I used them in 5e while I had it. But I still use that material in Savage Worlds. None of the material that's come out is really necessary for me in terms of mechanics (since I think the mechanics are not good). They certainly aren't producing more fluff than the previous editions... so it seemed to be a clear line had been crossed. Emotional ties evaporated and I was truly disconnected from the brand that I'd stood with for decades.

Now it's like a comically sadistic sideshow where I watch Pundit and others parade out the latest outrage from that collective sewer. And the only think irksome about it that does have an impact on me is when I get new players that most of the time got into this hobby via D&D and then I'll have to hear them try to explain to me why it's "so cool!" or regale me with their epic renditions of their favorite "Adventure Path" and how they did it the 2nd or 3rd time... and what is my favorite Adventure Path?

I sip my coffee. Eventually I summon my best Mako-voice

"Boy...Before the time when the Sun set upon 3e, and the earth shook and the rise of the monster of 4e, there was an age undreamed of. It is I, the GM who alone can tell thee of this saga. Let me tell you of the days of high adventure!"

Quote from: Slambo on November 23, 2020, 01:33:28 PM
I wonder if we can convince them Class is classist.

Oh THAT came up at least once in the prior iteration of this disease of stupid back in the 90s.

As said many a time. There is no limit to what they will hallucinate is todays new evil to abolish.

Eventually someone will demand that bows be removed from games because that is appropriation from the poor oppesededed natives. And sure enough one or more companies WILL removed bows and arrows from their games.

I mean we allready have George Washington being censored out of one, possibly more, games in development because he was WACIST! We allready have had at least one game censored because it had fantasy native americans in it because thats appreopiation! We have OA D&D declared WACIST despite it being approved by actual asians. And so on in a never ending death spiral.

Quote from: Slambo on November 23, 2020, 01:33:28 PM
I wonder if we can convince them Class is classist.

When have SJWs ever cared about class?

That's a can of worms they definitely don't want to open!

Quote from: tenbones on November 23, 2020, 08:32:24 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on November 23, 2020, 07:53:03 PM

Quote from: tenbones on November 23, 2020, 12:24:32 PM
I'm curious to how many people angry at this development actually support 5e monetarily still?

Angry is a bit strong.

Disappointed maybe.

I used to be angry. Then I was disappointed. Now I simply don't care.

I was angry because like many of the dumb directions pop-culture has taken (which infects a lot of the stuff we share) it was/is *totally unnecessary* aside from the strife it causes in various circles.

Disappointment came when it became totally clear that beyond the marketing mistakes that all this shit was purely ideological, so much so that those caught in the gravitational well of it even ate their own principles dignity out of financial self-interest in the hopes they could turn it around (and this is a best case scenario I don't really believe).

Not caring happened slowly after I realized that the elements of D&D I do use, and prefer (1e, 2e) are very very much in use. I never stopped using them in 3e. I skipped 4e altogether. And I used them in 5e while I had it. But I still use that material in Savage Worlds. None of the material that's come out is really necessary for me in terms of mechanics (since I think the mechanics are not good). They certainly aren't producing more fluff than the previous editions... so it seemed to be a clear line had been crossed. Emotional ties evaporated and I was truly disconnected from the brand that I'd stood with for decades.

Now it's like a comically sadistic sideshow where I watch Pundit and others parade out the latest outrage from that collective sewer. And the only think irksome about it that does have an impact on me is when I get new players that most of the time got into this hobby via D&D and then I'll have to hear them try to explain to me why it's "so cool!" or regale me with their epic renditions of their favorite "Adventure Path" and how they did it the 2nd or 3rd time... and what is my favorite Adventure Path?

I sip my coffee. Eventually I summon my best Mako-voice

"Boy...Before the time when the Sun set upon 3e, and the earth shook and the rise of the monster of 4e, there was an age undreamed of. It is I, the GM who alone can tell thee of this saga. Let me tell you of the days of high adventure!"

Greetings!

Mako indeed! Awesome, Tenbones!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: TJS on November 20, 2020, 04:13:04 PM
The Most Intolerant Wins: The Dictatorship of the Small Minority.
https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dictatorship-of-the-small-minority-3f1f83ce4e15 (https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dictatorship-of-the-small-minority-3f1f83ce4e15)

This is exactly what the American Government was designed to prevent. Thanks for sharing.

Quote from: jhkim on November 16, 2020, 03:21:36 PM
I agree that there is a more radical faction than Chris and Ajit. In general, though, there's always a more radical faction than whoever is currently dominant. It's not clear to me that the more radical faction are winning overall, but then, I don't hang out on Twitter.

It's not about them winning, but allowing them to get a foothold in the first place. The people in these communities are far too concerned with not validating their ideological opposition over keeping the toxic extremes at bay.

Quote from: jhkim on November 16, 2020, 03:21:36 PM
It seems some people expressed that it was about it being a video livestream rather than about private RPG play. i.e. It's fine for white players to play Asian characters in a private game, but doing so for a broadcast livestream is different.

That's where the goalposts are now. I guarantee they'll be moved later.

Quote from: jhkim on November 16, 2020, 03:21:36 PM
But the point of livestreaming is that it's supposed to follow the rules of how the game is actually played, not just be a themed TV show.

And yet the same community is pushing for exactly the latter in order to make things more 'accessible' (https://archive.is/7o9Yr#selection-425.0-429.523).

Quote from: jhkim on November 20, 2020, 10:43:49 AM
In discussing this topic elsewhere, I had someone tell me that by having non-white pre-generated PCs in convention games, I was promoting racism - because it gave permission for white people to play them and express whatever that they thought about minorities. They did allow that it was not a big issue if it happened in private games. They locked discussion after that point for being non-productive.

Imagine my shock. And even if a game's 'private' it won't stop rabid #SJWs from making examples out of their players (https://archive.is/q47IL).

Quote from: Ted on November 20, 2020, 05:49:09 PM
I'm no expert, but I find the concept of policing creativity to be anathema to the human spirit. Hyperbolic in this situation, certainly, but also I believe  true.  And isn't that the most oppressive prison of all, when you can force someone to inhibit their own imagination?

How insidious is the desire to coopt the prisoner into being his own jailor?  This desire to control the imagination is also aimed at more than just players, I think the real desire is to exert that same power upstream and intimidate the designers of games as well. It's so ... twisted.

Ironically true racism is the product of a lack of imagination, and the conditioning you describe is a fundamental element in totalitarian rule. If the #SJWs have their way there will never be any individual creative expression or interpretation. Everything will be the product of committee and approved authorities, and that's not a price I'm willing to pay to prevent #WrongThink.

Quote from: rytrasmi on November 21, 2020, 10:56:29 AM
The creativity police want the R to be used for indoctrination. Hence, I propose we call such games IPGs, Indoctrination Playing Games or Ideology Playing Games.

You're not wrong. Games however are an absolutely horrible indoctrination tool, because no matter what you do they still depend on choice.

Quote from: yabaziou on November 16, 2020, 07:47:09 AM
I also wonder which Daniel Kwan is allowed to have a not Chinese first name since he feels than genetic heritage is so important to determine what a person is allowed to do. This Kind of cultural appropriation should not be tolerated  ;).

Ironically the name was one of the things they took issue with (https://archive.is/NGzMG#selection-4459.0-4459.259).

Quote from: Chris24601 on November 20, 2020, 12:06:55 PM
So basically... if you have non-white pre-gens you're racist, but if you have only white pre-gens you're also a racist. If you have female pre-gens you're sexist, but if you have only male pre-gens you're also sexist. If you have gay pre-gens you're a homophobe, if you have no gay pre-gens you're a homophobe.

The only way to win is not to play.

Now you're getting it!