1 new game that plays fast and can be found at the lgs is Barbarians of Lemuria.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;419088It's common for new players to want to chess match out a bunch of stuff and sit there staring at the battlemat for a while. Anytime I see that I usually just have them roll a dice. If it's below a 10, it probably didn't matter what they were planning.

This I love.
 

QuoteFinally- here's one thing I advocate that nobody seems to like until they try it- don't allow any rulebooks at the table. I haven't brought a 4e rulebook to the table since 2008.

I agree with this. I run games at cons a lot, and so time is critical. My attitude is that if I have to open the book during play I've failed.

Quote from: Benoist;418939It comes down to what you decide to care about as a player as well. If you only care about what your character's doing when he's doing it, then yes, you're going to have some boring downtime.

Sure, but that's the GMing, too. It's easy for the GM to say that the player has just one minute (or whatever) to state what they're going to do and roll for it.

At one game club I saw some people playing World in Flames with all optional rules. Each player wandered around chatting until it was time for their turn, then and only then did they start planning their actions. As a result, each session covered 1.5 turns, I calculated if the game war lasted as long as the real one, it'd take them 18 months to finish. This was the behaviour you describe, but the game has no GM to keep things moving.

Of course D&D4e does suck immensely and playing it makes you feel like you're stuck in toffee, only without the sweetness. Still, it does come down to the GMing. One of the GM's jobs is to keep things moving.
"Anna, what do you do?"
"Um, pass me that rulebook..."
"Okay, you D&D - you spend the round dithering and ducking."
"But -"
"Bob, what do you do?"

Quote from: Insufficient MetalThe characters certainly don't have infinite amounts of time to decide Just the Right Move, why should players?

There is an argument for giving players more time to decide than their characters have. Their characters have greater tactical knowledge because they have the character class, skills or whatever's relevant. That greater tactical knowledge can be reflected by having a bit longer to think about what they do.

So for example in GURPS with its one second combat rounds, it'd be a bit harsh to give a player only one second to decide things. But thirty seconds should be heaps, doesn't have to be ten minutes of paging through books.

Quote from: jgantsSure, taking forever to decide things in combat is bad. But what about these other time wasters?

Those are indeed a problem. Again it comes down to the GMing. Thus the famous saying,

"Shut the fuck up and roll the dice."

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;419088It's common for new players to want to chess match out a bunch of stuff and sit there staring at the battlemat for a while. Anytime I see that I usually just have them roll a dice. If it's below a 10, it probably didn't matter what they were planning.

Quote from: Bill White;419149This I love.
 

Wha...?
I don't actually disagree with anything else in AM's post, but this one threw me a little...it looks very ripe for abuse.
"Whee, 20! I use my daily!"
"OK that was a 1...I cast magic missile".

However, I do encourage PCs to roll if this avoids me having to look a modifier somewhere, that a very good/bad roll would make irrelevant.
But, your house your rules. Carry on.

Quote from: Christian;418955Several of us dig the World of Darkness. One thing I like about the Storyteller system is that it's fairly easy to keep things moving. So that's a possibility.

It might even be nice to do a few one-shots. I am terribly curious about Monsters and Other Childish Things AND ICONS. It could be fun to even revisit old faves like Twilight 2000 and Star Frontiers.

Mostly, we need a game that keeps everyone involved and interested. It really bums me out to see people tuned out for long periods of time.

While I haven't had a chance to play Labyrinth Lord, it's on my radar for the same reasons others have brought it up in this thread.
The more I read about what you're describing in your posts here, the more I want to suggest Houses of the Blooded. Read the demo and let me know what you think about the Mass Murder mechanic (which is what the combat system is called). Here's a link to the demo PDF: http://www.housesoftheblooded.net/downloads.html

I'll echo whats been said about how the game is run. IMO the best GM's are those that know when a roll will fit into the moment, or when for the flow of the story, its time to hand-wave or resolve the moment with a quick, simple and easy alternative. Narrators that can play beyond the books....

Quote from: danbuter;418935estar - He said he's in a 4e game. While that is faster than 3e, it's still really slow.

Uhm, I play 3E and I have no problems with combats' speed. And my players (four) pay attention when it is not their turn because what happens in other players' turns is A) fun to watch and B) makes you think what to do when it's your turn again.

I must say that, in my games, the "d20 + skill vs. DC rule" ruleZ. Special cases are applied in special occasions, and that's it.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;419179Sure, but that's the GMing, too. It's easy for the GM to say that the player has just one minute (or whatever) to state what they're going to do and roll for it.

Exactly. It's so obvious, it hurts the eyes. When it's a player's turn I expect for him to state what he does up stat (OK, maybe after asking for some clarifications). This means that he has to pay attention and pre-plan during other players' turns. In combat you *must* think in advance, or you fall out of the decision circle - no matter if you lead an army or your body.

When I play, I feel embarassed when I don't know what to do in my turn. When it happens, I would "DM myself" into stating that I have combat paralysis for that turn.

Quote from: Christian;419060Like so many others in this thread, I'm not sure if my enjoyment of a game increases with the page count of the rulebook.

Today I'm going down to the FLGS to see if I can find something fast and fun.

Wish me luck!

I wish you luck.

Many good suggestions around. I usually give people 10 seconds to decide despite the system we're using. As these days I'm using BRP games, it's plenty of time. With more rules-intensive games I could see using 30" per player.

Quote from: Spinachcat;419068I am completely confused by 10 minute player turns for 4e.

Me too. I haven't had a lot of experiences with 4e, but at least at the first level play is quite smooth.

QuoteYou aren't going to find many fast play RPGs in your game store.   Instead, your best bet are the FREE retro-clones.  My suggestions would be...

MAZES & MINOTAURS
http://storygame.free.fr/MAZES.htm
SWORDS & WIZARDRY
http://www.swordsandwizardry.com/
LABYRINTH LORD
http://www.goblinoidgames.com/labyrinthlord.html
MUTANT FUTURE
http://www.goblinoidgames.com/mutantfuture.html
WARRIOR, ROGUE & MAGE
http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=82643

Great suggestions, all around.

And I like the "no books at the table" rule. I think it forces you to really master the game. I'm going to try it when prepping this Friday's Cthulhu game.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;419088I think anyone who spends much longer than a minute on a turn in 4e is probably just wasting their time.

I think that this is true for 4E in a general sense.

Quote from: Imperator;419275Me too. I haven't had a lot of experiences with 4e, but at least at the first level play is quite smooth.

I play with, depending on how you look at it, three or four different 4e groups. How long it takes is highly player dependent. It does increase as you add levels, but the primary factor in how long a player takes is said player.

Seanchai

Quote from: Imperator;419275And I like the "no books at the table" rule. I think it forces you to really master the game. I'm going to try it when prepping this Friday's Cthulhu game.

I like the no books at the table idea but "game mastery" is irritating as hell.

A game should be fun to play. Not every player enjoys spending all available free time outside the game reading rules, options, tactics and stuff.

I read a lot of game material because I GM a whole lot. When it comes to games that I play but don't really run then I don't spend much time on them outside the game. I don't start looking through rulebooks either.

The whole game mastery thing can be a real drag when adventures are being run that assume all characters created for it will be tweaked and optimized out the ass and perfect tactics based on rules knowledge will be implemented at all times. I played in a couple 3E one shot games that kind of felt like this and it reminded me of the WOW dungeon runs mentality which gets old and boring real fast.

Simple mechanics are great. Those who want to master the game can do so and casual players can still play and have fun without feeling like they should have spent all week memorizing information from over a dozen rulebooks.

Best starter set?

It came out about 30 years ago. The Moldvay Basic D&D set with the kickass Erol Otus cover and the Marsh/Cook Expert set that followed it. Everything needed for play in one 64 page softcover book.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;419320I like the no books at the table idea but "game mastery" is irritating as hell.

A game should be fun to play. Not every player enjoys spending all available free time outside the game reading rules, options, tactics and stuff.

I read a lot of game material because I GM a whole lot. When it comes to games that I play but don't really run then I don't spend much time on them outside the game. I don't start looking through rulebooks either.

The whole game mastery thing can be a real drag when adventures are being run that assume all characters created for it will be tweaked and optimized out the ass and perfect tactics based on rules knowledge will be implemented at all times. I played in a couple 3E one shot games that kind of felt like this and it reminded me of the WOW dungeon runs mentality which gets old and boring real fast.

Simple mechanics are great. Those who want to master the game can do so and casual players can still play and have fun without feeling like they should have spent all week memorizing information from over a dozen rulebooks.

Best starter set?

It came out about 30 years ago. The Moldvay Basic D&D set with the kickass Erol Otus cover and the Marsh/Cook Expert set that followed it. Everything needed for play in one 64 page softcover book.

I really don't think players should spend much time optimizing, and the rules aren't that big of a deal- knowing what constitutes flanking, grants combat advantage, and provokes an attack of opportunity is usually enough.

Here's what too many DMs do:

DM: "Ok, the zombie lurches over here to attack.." (starts to shift zombie..)

Player (playing fighter) "I got him marked! Awesome.. I take a free hit..!"

DM: "oh, wait.. I guess if you have him marked I will move over there instead.... or ..hmm.. I guess I could..attack you instead.."

(DM starts re-taking his move and really thinking about it)


This is just a waste of time. Let the mark go off, let the player make the free attack and drive on. Players do the same thing, but when Dms do it, it's unforgivable. It's really ok to play a stupid zombie like it's a stupid zombie. Heck it's ok to make tactical errors. It's not ok to make everyone wait.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;419327Here's what too many DMs do:

DM: "Ok, the zombie lurches over here to attack.." (starts to shift zombie..)

Player (playing fighter) "I got him marked! Awesome.. I take a free hit..!"

DM: "oh, wait.. I guess if you have him marked I will move over there instead.... or ..hmm.. I guess I could..attack you instead.."

(DM starts re-taking his move and really thinking about it)

DM receives a bitch slap for 5-50 points of damage and the player leaves to find a more exciting game.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;419327This is just a waste of time. Let the mark go off, let the player make the free attack and drive on. Players do the same thing, but when Dms do it, it's unforgivable. It's really ok to play a stupid zombie like it's a stupid zombie. Heck it's ok to make tactical errors. It's not ok to make everyone wait.

This is why I prefer systems that are less "chessboard grid" focused. 3E and 4E have inspired an intense dislike of turn based initiative. You want players to stay focused and operate as a team? The best way to do that is with good old side based initiative and let them coordinate and actually work together as a team. Party wins initiative and gets to decide who will do what first. Individual turns just encourage those waiting to zone out until it's time to do something. Actually getting to coordinate activity with the rest of party so that every member can act together maintains focus on the party as a group instead of everyone being fixated on their own little slice of ME time.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;419339. Individual turns just encourage those waiting to zone out until it's time to do something. Actually getting to coordinate activity with the rest of party so that every member can act together maintains focus on the party as a group instead of everyone being fixated on their own little slice of ME time.

You might be on to something with that.