I really wonder what the purpose behind a thread like this is:
https://www.enworld.org/threads/running-list-of-potential-problematic-issues-in-tsr-era-dnd.678461/
I'm not sure other than pc wokeness
I don't think they're quite there yet. By the bottom of the first page we got this comment with more likes than the OP...
QuoteHow is this going to generate actual good things happening, versus the destruction or censorship of old material?
I'm actually not a fan of the cheesecake/beefcake for religious and modesty reasons.... but if you want to cancel beefcake and cheesecake, you will have to go back a few hundred years to some of the best artists of all history and start putting clothes on their work. Artists like to show muscles and curves as a way of displaying their mastery of their art, or something like that. It's certainly harder to draw a barbarian (either gender) with 20d6 individual muscles on display than it is a person in featureless plate armor.
From the original post on the thread-
QuoteOk, a disclaimer is going to be needed for this thread. First, this in no way is saying people who played, continue to play, enjoy, or designed/worked on TSR era DnD are bad in any way. It was a product of its time, and people largely did the best they could with what they knew at the time.
This directly contradicts the WOTC disclaimer on rpgnow/drivethrurpg.
QuoteWe (Wizards) recognize that some of the legacy content available on this website does not reflect the values of the Dungeons & Dragons franchise today. Some older content may reflect ethnic, racial, and gender prejudice that were commonplace in American society at that time. These depictions were wrong then and are wrong today. This content is presented as it was originally created, because to do otherwise would be the same as claiming these prejudices never existed. Dungeons & Dragons teaches that diversity is a strength, and we strive to make our D&D products as welcoming and inclusive as possible. This part of our work will never end.
If they were "wrong then", then WOTC are intentionally promoting and profiting off of prejudice.
The purpose of a thread like that is PC Wokeness. They're not nearly as far along as RPG.net, but RPG.net didn't become woke overnight. The pushback the OP is getting (That username sounds familiar...) is nice to see, but give it time. Eventually the place wil descend into social justice hell, just like TBP.
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on February 25, 2021, 12:44:29 PM
I really wonder what the purpose behind a thread like this is:
https://www.enworld.org/threads/running-list-of-potential-problematic-issues-in-tsr-era-dnd.678461/
I'm not sure other than pc wokeness
Yes. Yes it is.
On ENWorld, every time one mod retired and a new one took the spot, it got marginally worse. Sometimes it was a really thin margin, but there has been a lot of turnover there. And you don't need much change when you start overtly center-left but think you are center.
This thread is sort of meh, nevertheless it's nowhere near Big Purple censorship level, so for now it's fine.
I love it how the Wokesters love the E Thot girls but hate the Random Harlot Tables.
Sex Work is Work you bigots!
Sadly the whole (Western) world is getting more like RPG.net. :(
Do any of these people actually fucking PLAY RPGs?
I know quite a lot of SJWs really playing RPG's in Poland.
I played with them (though I think they have not know I'm quite right-wingish) they were generally good roleplayers.
Which should... be not surprising, as this board, and overall all apolitical quasi-libertarian opposition in RPG hobby claims politics races and so on does not matter.
So SJWs can play just as well, at least until you trigger them too much.
I quit Enworld recently.
It wasn't because of that - but it is factor. It's getting worse.
A lot of the problem is that 5e has been out for a long time and there is really little new to say about it.
Most of the userbase there are really just fans - they're not there to create or to fix or have productive discussions which lead to better gaming or anything like that, but just to argue in a fannish way.
So without anything new to really talk about they basically just tear themselves apart. Social Justice is just one way. There was one thread recently about how Halfling society is unrealistic that went on for pages and pages and is a contendor for the stupidest argument I've ever seen on the net.
Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on February 25, 2021, 02:14:56 PM
This thread is sort of meh, nevertheless it's nowhere near Big Purple censorship level, so for now it's fine.
That's what people said about Big Purple until it wasn't so fine anymore.
It is sad to see people twist themselves into knots over old material. If it is so upsetting why even look at it or play it.
As for the Harlot table, I learned all sort new words in my young teenage days back in 80s reading the 1e DMG. Thanks Gary! Never used the Harlot table though. Back then I spent 99% of playing time in dungeons slaying all sorts of fiendish creatures and taking their stuff.
Quote from: Brad on February 25, 2021, 04:07:27 PMDo any of these people actually fucking PLAY RPGs?
Quote from: TJS on February 25, 2021, 04:49:13 PMMost of the userbase there are really just fans - they're not there to create or to fix or have productive discussions which lead to better gaming or anything like that, but just to argue in a fannish way.
BNGs. Same as it ever was.
As S John Ross said about the GURPS mailing list, you could tell the difference between the questions asked because of something coming up in play, and the questions asked after just reading the books. Some things which seem like an issue when you're reading the rules actually aren't at the gaming table, and vice versa.
Bill and I talked about this a bit in the livestream yesterday (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qYNDFos1lI), but basically: for all the blather about the books, what really matters is what happens at the game table. And game tables at local clubs typically represent the demographics of the area. Game tables at people's homes represent the demographics of their own friendship groups. And those groups are usually quite open and friendly and have none of these dramas these guys talk about.
These are dramas you talk about when you don't have a game group.
It's someone said about rpg.net's Tangency: the only roleplaying those guys do is pretending to be gamers.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on February 25, 2021, 02:05:58 PM
On ENWorld, every time one mod retired and a new one took the spot, it got marginally worse. Sometimes it was a really thin margin, but there has been a lot of turnover there. And you don't need much change when you start overtly center-left but think you are center.
It's been the same three core mods for a decade now. One of them changed their user name from something that had Midget in the name so maybe that's what you're thinking of? They've had mods leave, but few are replaced, and it's mostly the same three guys.
I checked the op date and was surprised to see that this wasn't an old, old thread. Yes they're following rpg.net's path and have been doing so for a long time. I left several years ago when Morrus incorporated wokeness into the official forum rules. It's quite a shame, really. I was part of the community since (I think) 1998, and once upon a time it was a great place to hang out.
Quote from: Mishihari on February 25, 2021, 07:42:53 PM
I checked the op date and was surprised to see that this wasn't an old, old thread. Yes they're following rpg.net's path and have been doing so for a long time. I left several years ago when Morrus incorporated wokeness into the official forum rules. It's quite a shame, really. I was part of the community since (I think) 1998, and once upon a time it was a great place to hang out.
Had the best story hours.
Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on February 25, 2021, 04:19:53 PM
I know quite a lot of SJWs really playing RPG's in Poland.
I played with them (though I think they have not know I'm quite right-wingish) they were generally good roleplayers.
Which should... be not surprising, as this board, and overall all apolitical quasi-libertarian opposition in RPG hobby claims politics races and so on does not matter.
So SJWs can play just as well, at least until you trigger them too much.
They might even be better, with all the practice they have living in a fantasy world.
Quote from: Mishihari on February 25, 2021, 07:42:53 PM
I checked the op date and was surprised to see that this wasn't an old, old thread. Yes they're following rpg.net's path and have been doing so for a long time. I left several years ago when Morrus incorporated wokeness into the official forum rules. It's quite a shame, really. I was part of the community since (I think) 1998, and once upon a time it was a great place to hang out.
Yeah, it was. I was back there in the day when 3e was coming out. My account is still active......I think. I just can't be bothered I guess.
Quote from: Pat on February 25, 2021, 07:49:56 PM
Quote from: Mishihari on February 25, 2021, 07:42:53 PM
I checked the op date and was surprised to see that this wasn't an old, old thread. Yes they're following rpg.net's path and have been doing so for a long time. I left several years ago when Morrus incorporated wokeness into the official forum rules. It's quite a shame, really. I was part of the community since (I think) 1998, and once upon a time it was a great place to hang out.
Had the best story hours.
Oh man did they. Wulf Ratbane was probably my favorite but Kevin Kulp's was even good when he posted his groups stuff. Of course, Sep's was, for me, the best. Hell, if I remember aright SHARK had some great story hours there.
Quote from: Brad on February 25, 2021, 04:07:27 PM
Do any of these people actually fucking PLAY RPGs?
That's a damned good question. Man, the creativity that came out of enworld back in the day when the OGL and SRD came out.
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on February 25, 2021, 09:49:54 PM
Quote from: Pat on February 25, 2021, 07:49:56 PM
Quote from: Mishihari on February 25, 2021, 07:42:53 PM
I checked the op date and was surprised to see that this wasn't an old, old thread. Yes they're following rpg.net's path and have been doing so for a long time. I left several years ago when Morrus incorporated wokeness into the official forum rules. It's quite a shame, really. I was part of the community since (I think) 1998, and once upon a time it was a great place to hang out.
Had the best story hours.
Oh man did they. Wulf Ratbane was probably my favorite but Kevin Kulp's was even good when he posted his groups stuff. Of course, Sep's was, for me, the best. Hell, if I remember aright SHARK had some great story hours there.
There were a lot of good story hours, but Sepulchrave's Tales of Wyre and Destan's Sins of Our Fathers were head and shoulders above the rest.
Quote from: Brad on February 25, 2021, 04:07:27 PM
Do any of these people actually fucking PLAY RPGs?
I have noticed that a lot of the more political types on ENworld are 4e fans who actively seem to dislike 5e.
This should tell you a lot. There's nothing particularly wrong with liking 4e, but if you spend your time hanging around on a forum which is, in all practical ways, devoted to a game you don't actually play or like, then something is inherently wrong.
I thought it was already as bad as big purple; I posted maybe 5 times over there before deleting my account.
There was a review about an africa based setting, I said I probably would not buy or run it no matter how cool it might be because I'd likely get harpooned for "cultural appropriation" for doing so.
Then I was beset by 2-3 very female sounding screen names crapping on me for saying so and trying to properly educate me on the matter (one of these screen names, while i don't recall it exactly, was all very tumbler sounding black power lesbian-ish).
I was like "full stop folks, I went to college and I heard all this commie crap before, it was commie crap then and its commie crap now, I made my save and now I'm immune you are wasting your breath". Then it got ugly, I was attacked for being a redneck rural flyover retard nazi incel, "i bet you have bumper stickers that say liberalism is a mental disorder, etc" all of which I took in stride except to note that while I lack such a bumper sticker (i'm a bodyman i hate bumper stickers they cause extra work) I agree with the sentiment, especially after this.
They continued to attack, I continued to dismiss them as ignorant commies whose poison I refuse to acknowledge as being worthy of anything but ridicule, and eventually Morrus locks the thread, but not before giving me a warning saying "These "commies" just want you to be nice".
Rather than correct him that no, thats not just what they want and that they will eat him too unless he completely surrendurs, I just deleted the account and googled for another forum, landed here.
Thats right, Morrus has inflicted me upon you. You should demand reparations really.
eta
checking your linked thread that OP Sacrosanct was one of those attacking me lol.
Well at least the OP is getting some kind of pushback in the thread against his overall bullshit but yeah the SJW rot is all over the place. It's actually much worse into areas outside of rpgs. I was called a bad person when I dared to post pro- Gina Carano stuff on my FAcebook feed and it was again go go SJW rangers essentially finger wagging and all but saying I'm a bad person for not defending her getting fired. Yet their favored SJW darling Pedro Pascal when I posted both of what they said gets them all angry as when it comes from someone spouting their "approved" politics and social positions it is ok. Both used Holocaust description as analogies yet Pedro gets a free pass for being leftist and non-Trump supporter.
I left there several months ago. Also there from the beginning. It's been pretty bad for the past 2 or 3 years. I couldn't take Russ' (morrus) bullshit and condescending attitude anymore. He used to be pretty low key but has gone off the deep end with woke ignorance.
A whole host of genuine wtf? moments in reading that pile of shit through.
.......Fabric armour when worn by any non white European person must have the same factors as full plate armour as otherwise you reinforce the paradigm of native/indigenous inferiority.
.... Meso-American stone bladed weapons must be as effective as European hardened steel ones for the same reason.
...Yet another rehash of the pathetic Orcs are synonymous with Negroes fallacy.
.....It is wrong for clerics/priest characters to only follow 1 god.
Seems to be some spineless game designer who wants to make an OSR game that SJW's won't criticise.
Quote from: JeffB on February 26, 2021, 10:26:59 AM
I left there several months ago. Also there from the beginning. It's been pretty bad for the past 2 or 3 years. I couldn't take Russ' (morrus) bullshit and condescending attitude anymore. He used to be pretty low key but has gone off the deep end with woke ignorance.
Yep, agree. Morrus has gotten bad.
Quote from: Slipshot762 on February 26, 2021, 03:32:07 AM
checking your linked thread that OP Sacrosanct was one of those attacking me lol.
Yeah thats Sac over there most likely. He used to post here and was near the exact opposite. Then at some point apparently drank the kool-aid, became a Sarkesian cultist and now everythings sexist everything racist everythings ad nausium. All I recall is him getting ever more stringent here.
These are the sorts who are so offended by everything that the only thing acceptable is a featureless cube. And eventually they will be offended by that.
Quote from: Omega on February 26, 2021, 12:32:43 PM
These are the sorts who are so offended by everything that the only thing acceptable is a featureless cube. And eventually they will be offended by that.
What have you got against spheres? Are you a shapists? :D
I haven't posted on Enworld for years.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on February 26, 2021, 12:44:53 PM
Quote from: Omega on February 26, 2021, 12:32:43 PM
These are the sorts who are so offended by everything that the only thing acceptable is a featureless cube. And eventually they will be offended by that.
What have you got against spheres? Are you a shapists? :D
Spheres were long ago outlawed as being sexist because spheres represent breasts and no woman can have breasts. Once the cube is outlawed they well then move on to triangles. Then lines. Then a point and then nothing. But even the void will be deemed sexist. So that has to go too.
Why? Because these sociopaths invariably go into a death spiral of ever increasing demands for censoring whatever.
Quote from: sureshot on February 26, 2021, 08:18:35 AM
Well at least the OP is getting some kind of pushback in the thread against his overall bullshit but yeah the SJW rot is all over the place. It's actually much worse into areas outside of rpgs. I was called a bad person when I dared to post pro- Gina Carano stuff on my FAcebook feed and it was again go go SJW rangers essentially finger wagging and all but saying I'm a bad person for not defending her getting fired. Yet their favored SJW darling Pedro Pascal when I posted both of what they said gets them all angry as when it comes from someone spouting their "approved" politics and social positions it is ok. Both used Holocaust description as analogies yet Pedro gets a free pass for being leftist and non-Trump supporter.
I had one Friend (made in RL, kept in contact over FB) post about Gina Carano, the usual crap. I pushed back, and he doubled down on calling Carano a "Holocaust denier".
I typically avoid such discussions on social media. The arguments go nowhere fast. They can post whatever junk they like, and so shall I.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on February 26, 2021, 03:44:51 PMI had one Friend (made in RL, kept in contact over FB) post about Gina Carano, the usual crap. I pushed back, and he doubled down on calling Carano a "Holocaust denier".
:o Doesn't comparing something to the holocaust (even though she didn't actually do that) require believing that the holocaust happened? I guess not according to woke logic.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on February 26, 2021, 03:44:51 PM
Quote from: sureshot on February 26, 2021, 08:18:35 AM
Well at least the OP is getting some kind of pushback in the thread against his overall bullshit but yeah the SJW rot is all over the place. It's actually much worse into areas outside of rpgs. I was called a bad person when I dared to post pro- Gina Carano stuff on my FAcebook feed and it was again go go SJW rangers essentially finger wagging and all but saying I'm a bad person for not defending her getting fired. Yet their favored SJW darling Pedro Pascal when I posted both of what they said gets them all angry as when it comes from someone spouting their "approved" politics and social positions it is ok. Both used Holocaust description as analogies yet Pedro gets a free pass for being leftist and non-Trump supporter.
I had one Friend (made in RL, kept in contact over FB) post about Gina Carano, the usual crap. I pushed back, and he doubled down on calling Carano a "Holocaust denier".
I typically avoid such discussions on social media. The arguments go nowhere fast. They can post whatever junk they like, and so shall I.
...your friend is insane...and I mean that in the 'not capable of actual rational thought' way, not the typical SJW lemming 'I believe' mantra...
The very existence of the tweet itself means Carano cannot be a "holocaust denier"...
Quote from: moonsweeper on February 26, 2021, 04:53:09 PM
...your friend is insane...and I mean that in the 'not capable of actual rational thought' way, not the typical SJW lemming 'I believe' mantra...
The very existence of the tweet itself means Carano cannot be a "holocaust denier"...
Quote from: Dimitrios on February 26, 2021, 04:49:12 PM
:o Doesn't comparing something to the holocaust (even though she didn't actually do that) require believing that the holocaust happened? I guess not according to woke logic.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
That's when I abandoned the conversation. It obviously wasn't going anywhere rational.
There's a certain kind of argumentation at work where the irrationality is the point.
The logic (such as it is) is like this.
- Certain things ought to provoke you into extremes of emotion where rational response is difficult
- If you insist on rationality then you are therefore reacting innappropriately. You are not supposed to argue - that just demonstrates your own innappropriate response. You are supposed to validate the emotion behind the statement, not quibble about things like facts or accuracy.
Why are RPG designers particularly susceptible to being infected by the Wokeism virus?
Is it because creative thinking inhibits your critical thinking?
Quote from: Shasarak on February 26, 2021, 06:47:21 PM
Why are RPG designers particularly susceptible to being infected by the Wokeism virus?
Is it because creative thinking inhibits your critical thinking?
In the case of WOTC, I think being based in the Seattle area is a big factor.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on February 26, 2021, 07:13:28 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on February 26, 2021, 06:47:21 PM
Why are RPG designers particularly susceptible to being infected by the Wokeism virus?
Is it because creative thinking inhibits your critical thinking?
In the case of WOTC, I think being based in the Seattle area is a big factor.
Pretty much this. Also critical thinking requires realism... and the reality is that writing rpgs is unlikely to be able to support yourself or a family. The non-woke know better than to quit their day jobs in pursuit of a career in the RPG industry. This means they can't produce nearly as much material as some pajama boy mooching of his parents as they pursue their dreams of being an RPG writer.
There's also opportunity costs. If you have a day job then you have limited free time for gaming. Do you want to spend that time alone staring at a screen as you compile your manuscript of your game or would you rather be playing a game with your friends?
Are they complaining about demons and evil spirits being racist yet?
Then they haven't gotten as bad as RPGNet. (http://"https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/evil-species-problems-and-demons-or-other-evil-spirits.877853/")
I've been over there a bit.
I'd say yes, it's becoming like that and no, it's not there yet. Check out the infractions thread on RPG.net--they ban people for mocking the Protocols of the Elders of Zion in an insufficiently rabid way, calling Narrangasett an English name (it is in fact not English but Native American, but a ban?), and various other things that read like a parody of tumblr.
I tend to stay out of these discussions on there though, thinking about it, maybe I should push back a little until they ban me. From what I can see they actually allow you to delete your account, unlike RPG.net which refuses to, probably so they can keep everything you said to mine for blackmail material if they can figure out who you really are.
Interestingly, apparently the guy who started the thread, after specifically asking about how to make a more inclusive OSR game, mentioned when asked that he has been pushed out of RPG.net. So Big Purple's hypercensoriousness isn't just political...they've got a severe case of generic love of the banhammer as well. (This does describe most of the woke left as well, BTW.)
I just learned that not only Big Purple is official name of skin for their boards, but also that they have alternative skin called SHADES OF GRAY.
That's just awesome.
QuoteAre they complaining about demons and evil spirits being racist yet?
Then they haven't gotten as bad as RPGNet.
I mean clear woke aspects aside - this was not very bad thread and discussion about nature of demons in fantasy settings where demons are physical and can eat you - but also personal beings living in time-continuum is not bad.
Let's not forget that we do live in times when asking "Are chess racists? In the game the White always moves first!" is considered a serious question.
https://www.rt.com/sport/493243-anatoly-karpov-chess-racism/
The funny^H^H^H^H^H interesting thing is how this kind of "concern" only underlines a Western white-centric view of the World. No one, for example, asks "Is Go a racist game?" because in Go *Black* always plays first. It also underlines how this specific occurrence of holy indignation is based on ignorance (as "holy indignation" often is) about the "white-centric racism" of a game born in VII Century India, diffused in Persia via the Silk Road, and then in North Africa and Europe by Islamic invaders.
But the above is called "research and analysis". It is also called "using your head" - and thus a futile counter to thisk kind of madness.
BTW
Exhibit #1 in the "potential problematic issues" list:
- Nipples in chain mail bikinis
I.e. Not "chain mail bikinis" (!) in the first place. It tells you all you need to know right there. 🙄
Actively moving in the same direction. Lagging in distance moved. Rate of acceleration uncertain. Target in motion on same axis.
Quoteabout the "white-centric racism" of a game born in VII Century India, diffused in Persia via the Silk Road, and then in North Africa and Europe by Islamic invaders.
Although chess is derived from Aryan-Asiatic boardgames, the current ruleset and piece-set originates from XV-century Italy.
Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on February 27, 2021, 09:39:12 AM
Quoteabout the "white-centric racism" of a game born in VII Century India, diffused in Persia via the Silk Road, and then in North Africa and Europe by Islamic invaders.
Although chess is derived from Aryan-Asiatic boardgames, the current ruleset and piece-set originates from XV-century Italy.
True (and finalised in the XIX Century), but the "White moves first" rule goes back to the original "Chaturanga" as played in India in the VII Century. Furthermore,it is believed that "White and Black" simply referred to the uniforms of opposing armies.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaturanga#Rules
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on February 26, 2021, 09:22:40 PM
Are they complaining about demons and evil spirits being racist yet?
Then they haven't gotten as bad as RPGNet. (http://"https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/evil-species-problems-and-demons-or-other-evil-spirits.877853/")
I need to look at that thread in the same way I need to scratch a mosquito bite, but link seems to be broken
Quote from: Reckall on February 27, 2021, 08:56:58 AM
Let's not forget that we do live in times when asking "Are chess racists? In the game the White always moves first!" is considered a serious question.
https://www.rt.com/sport/493243-anatoly-karpov-chess-racism/
The funny^H^H^H^H^H interesting thing is how this kind of "concern" only underlines a Western white-centric view of the World. No one, for example, asks "Is Go a racist game?" because in Go *Black* always plays first. It also underlines how this specific occurrence of holy indignation is based on ignorance (as "holy indignation" often is) about the "white-centric racism" of a game born in VII Century India, diffused in Persia via the Silk Road, and then in North Africa and Europe by Islamic invaders.
But the above is called "research and analysis". It is also called "using your head" - and thus a futile counter to thisk kind of madness.
BTW
Exhibit #1 in the "potential problematic issues" list:
- Nipples in chain mail bikinis
I.e. Not "chain mail bikinis" (!) in the first place. It tells you all you need to know right there. 🙄
I'll be damned. Good point. I hadn't thought of it that way.
Quote from: Marchand on February 27, 2021, 10:22:35 AM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on February 26, 2021, 09:22:40 PM
Are they complaining about demons and evil spirits being racist yet?
Then they haven't gotten as bad as RPGNet. (http://"https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/evil-species-problems-and-demons-or-other-evil-spirits.877853/")
I need to look at that thread in the same way I need to scratch a mosquito bite, but link seems to be broken
There is a spurious " at the end. Here you go:
https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/evil-species-problems-and-demons-or-other-evil-spirits.877853/page-3
(But, listen to me: you don't need to read that thread. Really. Don't make my mistake. Life is short.)
QuoteTrue (and finalised in the XIX Century), but the "White moves first" rule goes back to the original "Chaturanga" as played in India in the VII Century. Furthermore,it is believed that "White and Black" simply referred to the uniforms of opposing armies.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaturanga#Rules
Thanks for clarification.
Quote from: Reckall on February 27, 2021, 11:50:16 AM
Quote from: Marchand on February 27, 2021, 10:22:35 AM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on February 26, 2021, 09:22:40 PM
Are they complaining about demons and evil spirits being racist yet?
Then they haven't gotten as bad as RPGNet. (http://"https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/evil-species-problems-and-demons-or-other-evil-spirits.877853/")
I need to look at that thread in the same way I need to scratch a mosquito bite, but link seems to be broken
There is a spurious " at the end. Here you go:
https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/evil-species-problems-and-demons-or-other-evil-spirits.877853/page-3
(But, listen to me: you don't need to read that thread. Really. Don't make my mistake. Life is short.)
What the fuck? Demons are a feature of every religion throughout history, including African and Asian. They aren't racist.
Case in point: the kishi. (https://www.amazon.com/Kishi-Tales-Esowon-Antoine-Bandele/dp/0999848321) A hyena demon from Angola that pretends to be a man so that it can seduce and eat (Angolan) women. It's basically an Angolan incubus/ogre.
What racist woke nutjub is seriously going to argue that, and similar stories from around the world, is racist when it was created by ethnic Angolans and so forth centuries before colonization?
These idiots need to learn about cultures other than their own.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on February 27, 2021, 01:09:19 PM
These idiots need to learn about cultures other than their own.
Amen and Awomen
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on February 27, 2021, 01:09:19 PM
Quote from: Reckall on February 27, 2021, 11:50:16 AM
Quote from: Marchand on February 27, 2021, 10:22:35 AM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on February 26, 2021, 09:22:40 PM
Are they complaining about demons and evil spirits being racist yet?
Then they haven't gotten as bad as RPGNet. (http://"https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/evil-species-problems-and-demons-or-other-evil-spirits.877853/")
I need to look at that thread in the same way I need to scratch a mosquito bite, but link seems to be broken
There is a spurious " at the end. Here you go:
https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/evil-species-problems-and-demons-or-other-evil-spirits.877853/page-3
(But, listen to me: you don't need to read that thread. Really. Don't make my mistake. Life is short.)
What the fuck? Demons are a feature of every religion throughout history, including African and Asian. They aren't racist.
Case in point: the kishi. (https://www.amazon.com/Kishi-Tales-Esowon-Antoine-Bandele/dp/0999848321) A hyena demon from Angola that pretends to be a man so that it can seduce and eat (Angolan) women. It's basically an Angolan incubus/ogre.
What racist woke nutjub is seriously going to argue that, and similar stories from around the world, is racist when it was created by ethnic Angolans and so forth centuries before colonization?
These idiots need to learn about cultures other than their own.
One of the great ironies about "wokism" isn't it's essentially a group of American elites trying to impose their own cultural frames of reference upon anyone and everyone.
Though let's not overexaggerate. There is clearly left-turn there, but only what two people seriously debated about demons being evil as problematic in WOKE sense.
Most other centred either on philosophical ramblings about possibility of essential evil, or whether "always evil" beings are satisfying from narrative perspective (and tbh they were not for many people - almost every EVIL race or monster get some subversive adaptation in fiction or RPG long time before current SJW trend
Quote from: Shasarak on February 26, 2021, 06:47:21 PM
Why are RPG designers particularly susceptible to being infected by the Wokeism virus?
Is it because creative thinking inhibits your critical thinking?
Having seen this all before. Just not as bad, usually. Some thoughts.
1: Money: Either they themselves, or if a company, marketing then, is convinced this is the golden gate to riches undreamed. A vast untapped market and how dare you say otherwise!
2: To get rid of the competition. Time and again with each iteration of this stupid over the decades I've heard of, or first hand seen, companies big and small, designers big and small, try to, and fairly often, succeed, in weaponizing this to take down a notch or two, or outright try to destroy the competition. Up to and including secretly funding and even leading on these cults from within.
3: Infected: These cults are increasingly persuasive and I've seen just how frighteningly fast they can turn a person into another "believer".
4: Deranged from the start: Have not seen this one till this new 2010 iteration. But we are seeing alot of sociopaths getting into gaming and the gaming biz who are, or close enough to, insane. And its in every corner of entertainment. Not just RPGs.
At some point last year I deleted my account there in favour of other sites that apply a more even-handed moderation policy - be that banning political-flavoured discussion equally, or allowing it equally.
Too much of the moderation commentary comes with an unnecessary level of condescension or snarkiness. The forums are heading towards the same unpleasant vibe as rpg.net - although they still have some way to go before they are that bad.
Quote from: TJS on February 27, 2021, 04:46:11 PM
One of the great ironies about "wokism" isn't it's essentially a group of American elites trying to impose their own cultural frames of reference upon anyone and everyone.
Exactly. And with
American strongly underlined. In another forum I got a warning for a post about climate change because "it was 'political'". I pointed out my bafflement, because here in Italy the debate about climate change is scientific, not political - to the point that the Italian Navy considers climate change a given, is actively financing research missions to better understand the phenomena (which could even determine "actually it is not so bad" - but on scientific terms) and even publishing the results online. (*)
But, no, climate change is a political topic, you unwashed non-American, and the thread was closed. Oooook...
(*) If you are curious, here is sample. The intro is in Italian but the research summary is in English:
https://www.marina.difesa.it/noi-siamo-la-marina/pilastro-logistico/scientifici/idrografico/Documents/Nord/II%203180.pdf
Quote from: Reckall on February 28, 2021, 08:29:10 AM
..........But, no, climate change is a political topic, you unwashed non-American, and the thread was closed. Oooook....
Climate change as a concept has been politicised and weaponised to the point that it is now impossible to find or have genuine debate on the theory or potential impact. Quite common now to see "Denier" being used as a term of abuse when questioning the zealots about their claims.
Quote from: robh on February 28, 2021, 09:36:07 AM
Climate change as a concept has been politicised and weaponised to the point that it is now impossible to find or have genuine debate on the theory or potential impact. Quite common now to see "Denier" being used as a term of abuse when questioning the zealots about their claims.
What I can say is that right here, in Italy, we have a bi-partisan government. One of the first things that they did was to create an "Ecological transition" ministry (immediately dubbed "the Greta ministry") with bi-partisan support. It, actually, should be an improved version of a previous ministry, built "according to what we learned in the last ten years" (which, as I wrote, could also mean "Well,
scientific evidence shows that Greta is a bit too much panicky"). And we are still far behind from other European countries - exp. the Scandinavian ones.
Do we have some social enclave of alt-Right burned outs? Sure. This is a free country. They are free to blather while the rest is free to move on.
Of course you can always try to politicise science. We just saw a big example thanks to the US and other countries, where, of all things, masks and social distancing were politicised - with the fine results we all can see. ::)
Quote from: Reckall on February 28, 2021, 10:41:43 AM
Quote from: robh on February 28, 2021, 09:36:07 AM
Climate change as a concept has been politicised and weaponised to the point that it is now impossible to find or have genuine debate on the theory or potential impact. Quite common now to see "Denier" being used as a term of abuse when questioning the zealots about their claims.
What I can say is that right here, in Italy, we have a bi-partisan government. One of the first things that they did was to create an "Ecological transition" ministry (immediately dubbed "the Greta ministry") with bi-partisan support. It, actually, should be an improved version of a previous ministry, built "according to what we learned in the last ten years" (which, as I wrote, could also mean "Well, scientific evidence shows that Greta is a bit too much panicky"). And we are still far behind from other European countries - exp. the Scandinavian ones.
Do we have some social enclave of alt-Right burned outs? Sure. This is a free country. They are free to blather while the rest is free to move on.
Of course you can always try to politicise science. We just saw a big example thanks to the US and other countries, where, of all things, masks and social distancing were politicised - with the fine results we all can see. ::)
You literally just talked about political alliances, political figures, and political fringe groups, and made multiple appeals to science without discussing any science at all. And you think that's nonpolitical?
Quote from: Pat on February 28, 2021, 10:58:21 AM
Quote from: Reckall on February 28, 2021, 10:41:43 AM
Quote from: robh on February 28, 2021, 09:36:07 AM
Climate change as a concept has been politicised and weaponised to the point that it is now impossible to find or have genuine debate on the theory or potential impact. Quite common now to see "Denier" being used as a term of abuse when questioning the zealots about their claims.
What I can say is that right here, in Italy, we have a bi-partisan government. One of the first things that they did was to create an "Ecological transition" ministry (immediately dubbed "the Greta ministry") with bi-partisan support. It, actually, should be an improved version of a previous ministry, built "according to what we learned in the last ten years" (which, as I wrote, could also mean "Well, scientific evidence shows that Greta is a bit too much panicky"). And we are still far behind from other European countries - exp. the Scandinavian ones.
Do we have some social enclave of alt-Right burned outs? Sure. This is a free country. They are free to blather while the rest is free to move on.
Of course you can always try to politicise science. We just saw a big example thanks to the US and other countries, where, of all things, masks and social distancing were politicised - with the fine results we all can see. ::)
You literally just talked about political alliances, political figures, and political fringe groups, and made multiple appeals to science without discussing any science at all. And you think that's nonpolitical?
This dude is the textbook example of the culturalization of politics. Politics used to be a philosophy of actions that were not culturally exclusive. What I mean is that, to take American politics as an example, two different people might agree on the need to X (where X was "reduce homelessness," or "prevent crime") but disagree on the method to accomplish X ("higher minimum wage vs. long prison sentences" vis a vie crime, etc.). Culturally, they agree on the ends, just not the means. Now, modern politics has become a cultural association. Wokism is just one example. You must adhere to all of the tenets of your "politics," even when they are sometimes self-contradictory, or you are alienated. Politics is now a belief system, not a means to an end.
To bring this back more on topic, you can see this on various RPG forums (with ENWorld and RPG.net being just the most obvious). You don't just have to agree with them on orcs being coded as black people; you need to also agree with them on things that have no bearing on RPGs (like BLM or trans stuff), because they have declared that
everything is political (hence political has become cultural). Sadly, despite the fact that Americans are far crazier in the extremes, Western Europeans have seemed to accept this culturalization more readily, as evinced by this dude proudly spouting off a litany of political garbage as if it's just "the way things are." That's the culturalization attacking our hobby.
quote author=Pat link=topic=43291.msg1164696#msg1164696 date=1614527901]
Quote from: Reckall on February 28, 2021, 10:41:43 AM
Quote from: robh on February 28, 2021, 09:36:07 AM
Climate change as a concept has been politicised and weaponised to the point that it is now impossible to find or have genuine debate on the theory or potential impact. Quite common now to see "Denier" being used as a term of abuse when questioning the zealots about their claims.
What I can say is that right here, in Italy, we have a bi-partisan government. One of the first things that they did was to create an "Ecological transition" ministry (immediately dubbed "the Greta ministry") with bi-partisan support. It, actually, should be an improved version of a previous ministry, built "according to what we learned in the last ten years" (which, as I wrote, could also mean "Well, scientific evidence shows that Greta is a bit too much panicky"). And we are still far behind from other European countries - exp. the Scandinavian ones.
Do we have some social enclave of alt-Right burned outs? Sure. This is a free country. They are free to blather while the rest is free to move on.
Of course you can always try to politicise science. We just saw a big example thanks to the US and other countries, where, of all things, masks and social distancing were politicised - with the fine results we all can see. ::)
You literally just talked about political alliances, political figures, and political fringe groups, and made multiple appeals to science without discussing any science at all. And you think that's nonpolitical?
[/quote]
How a government acts is political, no doubt about that. What matters is
the basis on which these acts are founded.
Some of them are objective, as understood by science and experience. And are
these fundaments that should never be politicised.
DUIing is against the law basically everywhere. If you DUI you are a danger for you and the others - as proved both by science and practical experience. An argument like "if you are not allowing me to DUI you are curtailing my freedoms!" won't hold. Stating that
Quote
DUIing is dangerous is a litany of political garbage as if it's just "the way things are."
...will send you and your car around a tree. This is an omni-partisan position. Are you seriously wondering why?
Helmets, special vestments and other forms of body protection are mandatory in many kinds of jobs. You can't actually even visit certain areas without wearing them. Do we hear people whining about their "freedom" because they have to wear a helmet in a construction site? I don't.
Then, all of sudden (*), a pandemic arrives, and measures considered the absolute basics since how germs work was understood, like masks and social distancing (and one could argue how quarantine and social distancing were enforced even before) become "politicised". That getting sick can make you infect others - and thus become a vector and a danger to third parts not unlikely DUIing - was somehow lost in the shuffle (with the results we saw, like, in the USA). Why? Mostly because
the Coronavirus can't care less about your "You will not take away my freedom!" slogans (the same being true for any kind of pathogens BTW).
And it is not even the first time that this happens. In the early '80s the AIDS pandemic was politicised. It was, possibly, the hottest rod in the political spectrum. AIDS, of course, didn't care at all about these shenanigans. It entered the blood banks. It was transmitted vie eterosexual intercourse when such an idea was (politically, of course) almost an heresy (contact tracing had proven it beyond doubt). We will never know what would have happened if the AIDS pandemic had been tackled by science and science alone back in 1980. We know for sure what nightmare it become.
And now we have climate change. In a number of countries it is the new political pinball...
MEANWHILERussia, America and China, in the real world, are sending their naval forces in the Arctic to see "if the new territories freed by the retreating Arctic ice can be somehow developed/exploited - hoooray!" This is happening right now, while the various navies are letting the "politically active" to pollute Twitter. It is not even a secret: just google "USA Russia Arctic". Now, tell me: how many times you saw this was mentioned - at the very least - in a debate about climate change?
So, when I say that my country considers climate change as a given, I do feel also the need to provide some facts. The creation of an improved ministry was approved by the whole political spectrum. The Italian Navy is putting men and money where the mouth is and conducting research in the Arctic. The results are of public domain. The debate,
here, is not about "if", but about "how serious is this danger" and "what we can do".
I also feel the need, for the sake of honesty, to point out the existence in Italy of fringe (and, in our case, alt-Right) movements who disagree. I'm always glad to hear from everybody, only to find them loud, childish and inconsequential - being unable to go beyond random insults against Greta Thunberg (and showing, in the process, their inability to criticise what she
says).
(*) A pandemic, BTW, which wasn't unexpected at all. Even I wrote, in a comic book, published in 1996, that we could expect it in a matter of decades - and why (someone remembered this feat of mine and published an article about it - it is in Italian but you can use Google translate: http://www.lucidamente.com/45604-perche-il-coronavirus-e-perche-in-futuro-ce-ne-saranno-altri/)
"Cassandras!" were called
on this very forum those who expressed concern, back in early 2020, about the news coming from China, and then Italy and other countries. Which was the correct label. Cassandra, as the myth tells us,
was always right. It was those she spoke to who were cursed not to believe her - only to sink shortly thereafter.
Quote from: Reckall on February 28, 2021, 12:54:55 PM
Russia, America and China, in the real world, are sending their naval forces in the Arctic to see "if the new territories freed by the retreating Arctic ice can be somehow developed/exploited - hoooray!" This is happening right now, while the various navies are letting the "politically active" to pollute Twitter. It is not even a secret: just google "USA Russia Arctic". Now, tell me: how many times you saw this was mentioned - at the very least - in a debate about climate change?
So, when I say that my country considers climate change as a given, I do feel also the need to provide some facts. The creation of an improved ministry was approved by the whole political spectrum. The Italian Navy is putting men and money where the mouth is and conducting research in the Arctic. The results are of public domain. The debate, here, is not about "if", but about "how serious is this danger" and "what we can do".
I also feel the need, for the sake of honesty, to point out the existence in Italy of fringe (and, in our case, alt-Right) movements who disagree. I'm always glad to hear from everybody, only to find them loud, childish and inconsequential - being unable to go beyond random insults against Greta Thunberg (and showing, in the process, their inability to criticise what she says).
(*) A pandemic, BTW, which wasn't unexpected at all. Even I wrote, in a comic book, published in 1996, that we could expect it in a matter of decades - and why (someone remembered this feat of mine and published an article about it - it is in Italian but you can use Google translate: http://www.lucidamente.com/45604-perche-il-coronavirus-e-perche-in-futuro-ce-ne-saranno-altri/)
"Cassandras!" were called on this very forum those who expressed concern, back in early 2020, about the news coming from China, and then Italy and other countries. Which was the correct label. Cassandra, as the myth tells us, was always right. It was those she spoke to who were cursed not to believe her - only to sink shortly thereafter.
Everything you have said above shows your blindness. Nothing you stated was "objective" in the least. The proper balance between freedom and safety is an inherently subjective decision, upon which intelligent individuals can disagree. All Covid has done is highlight that one party in this argument wishes to use the veneer of science to force their balance on everyone else. A knowledgeable person could agree that he virus is dangerous, but still disagree with all of the measure imposed by government, because they believe personal freedom and the society it creates is more important than the transient safety that destroys that principle. This is the definition of politics, not science, not culture. And the attempt to short-circuit this discussion puts you firmly on a side you might not wish to be on, were you able to look at this "objectively."
Once again, to return to RPGs, this same attempt to squelch discussion, to prevent others from deciding what is important at their table, be it verisimilitude, rules consistency, narrative, or whatever, is the hallmark of the "woke." They wish to define any opinion that you have that does not conform to their politics aas not just different, but wrong, evil reprehensible, even criminal. Dissent will not be tolerated. Opposition will not be tolerated. Why don't you comment on that (this is an RPG forum, right?), on how they are using the exact same logic as you are, that their "objective" determination of what is important, that some hypothetical hurt feelings are more important than your enjoyment? How do you justify opposing them (if you do), yet still proclaiming that the debate is not "if, but what to do"? That is their mantra...
Quote from: Reckall on February 28, 2021, 12:54:55 PM
AIDS, of course, didn't care at all about these shenanigans. It entered the blood banks. It was transmitted vie eterosexual intercourse
Outside Africa, AIDS pretty much never transmits through vaginal intercourse (yes it CAN happen - but it's extremely rare). But for POLITICAL reasons it was pretended that AIDS transmission through vaginal intercourse was a significant threat.
You're wrong about lots of other stuff too. :p
Quote from: Eirikrautha on February 28, 2021, 02:00:36 PM
Everything you have said above shows your blindness. Nothing you stated was "objective" in the least.
No? How pathogens spread and what are the basic measures to protect yourself and others is "subjective"? How so?
Quote
The proper balance between freedom and safety is an inherently subjective decision, upon which intelligent individuals can disagree. All Covid has done is highlight that one party in this argument wishes to use the veneer of science to force their balance on everyone else.
But this doesn't happen with DUIing? The obligation of wearing a helmet in a construction site is still considered basic safety? What is the difference between these two examples and the basic measures to slow a pandemic?
Would you agree for a scientist to be allowed to bring samples of deadly viruses outside a Biosafety Level 4 lab by keeping them in vials in his pockets? Would you be against laws that prevent this?
Discuss.
QuoteA knowledgeable person could agree that he virus is dangerous, but still disagree with all of the measure imposed by government, because they believe personal freedom and the society it creates is more important than the transient safety that destroys that principle.
Except that the society, like the individual, has a more impellent need: to survive. Both the individual and the society must be alive if they want to be free. But there is more: if you choose "freedom" in a pandemic, you choose for others too. You can very well be infected but asymptomatic. You can transmit the (potentially deadly) virus to people with different beliefs than yours. Are those beliefs to be ignored? You do seem to refuse such a concept. And yet this is the crisis factor: the nature of this specific danger is such that, to survive it, the society must act as a whole. And it must act according to basic, scientific,
objective realities.
(True, you can ignore the above - and get 25% of the overall Covid deaths with only 4% of the World population. Here is your personal freedom and the society it creates for you).
What amazes me is how something so commonly accepted like "Airline companies
must perform maintenance and pilots
must train for emergencies or people will die" (no one uses the force of gravity as a political tool, BTW, it works always and all by itself) all of sudden becomes a complex ethical/moral/political question when to be involved is... a deadly pandemic.
Quote
Once again, to return to RPGs, this same attempt to squelch discussion, to prevent others from deciding what is important at their table
No, and here is the bait-and-switch that derails the discussion. RPGs are an art form. There are no scientific truths to which we all must abide. You can convince me that something different is actually good. You can show me different ways and different approaches to my hobby. Here I have the freedom to decide - because, and this is the key point, if I do decide to be "woke"
I cannot infect you with this virus. We can debate what is good and what is not in RPGs (and other arts, like movies - where the current wisdom is "Get woke, go broke") for months, but at the end what matters is how a certain group decides to have fun. RPGs, in a way, are like sex: what really matters is the pleasure of those involved - end of the story.
You think that I'm "woke"? Check my post history here. Still, if my neighbour has a woke group and we see that they are having fun - well, good for them.
My neighbour got Covid because "no masks! down with social distancing!" and all of sudden both I and my family are at risk? Well...
Can you see the difference?
So, please, don't come to me again with bullshit like "Fearing a virus for scientific reasons means understanding that now you are responsible not only for yourself but for others = forcing wokeism on others!" This site has seen better.
Quote from: S'mon on February 28, 2021, 02:48:50 PM
Quote from: Reckall on February 28, 2021, 12:54:55 PM
AIDS, of course, didn't care at all about these shenanigans. It entered the blood banks. It was transmitted vie eterosexual intercourse
Outside Africa, AIDS pretty much never transmits through vaginal intercourse (yes it CAN happen - but it's extremely rare).
Yup, because "eterosexual intercourse" = "vaginal intercourse" 🙄
Quote
You're wrong about lots of other stuff too. :p
Like overestimate basic reading comprehension? :D
Quote from: Reckall on February 28, 2021, 03:11:49 PM
What amazes me is how something so commonly accepted like "Airline companies must perform maintenance and pilots must train for emergencies or people will die" (no one uses the force of gravity as a political tool, BTW, it works always and all by itself) all of sudden becomes a complex ethical/moral/political question when to be involved is... a deadly pandemic.
That fact that you don't understand that every single airline carefully balances the amount of maintenance and training they do between the safety it will provide and the cost and time (there is all kinds of optional maintenance that is done late, partially, or not at all, depending on the airline and circumstance) shows why you are clueless about this topic that you consider "obvious." Nothing in life is black-and-white. Everything is a trade-off. You just don't want to allow anyone else to determine the trade-off they want.
And I don't think you are woke. I think you are worse. You nominally disagree with "wokism" while confirming and approving of the intellectual basis for every one of their arguments. With friends like that, who needs enemies?
I see that you failed to even try to tackle some of the questions I made. OK.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on February 28, 2021, 03:31:33 PM
Quote from: Reckall on February 28, 2021, 03:11:49 PM
What amazes me is how something so commonly accepted like "Airline companies must perform maintenance and pilots must train for emergencies or people will die" (no one uses the force of gravity as a political tool, BTW, it works always and all by itself) all of sudden becomes a complex ethical/moral/political question when to be involved is... a deadly pandemic.
That fact that you don't understand that every single airline carefully balances the amount of maintenance and training they do between the safety it will provide and the cost and time (there is all kinds of optional maintenance that is done late, partially, or not at all, depending on the airline and circumstance) shows why you are clueless about this topic that you consider "obvious." Nothing in life is black-and-white. Everything is a trade-off. You just don't want to allow anyone else to determine the trade-off they want.
An airline has the duty to keep its planes in the air, and a pilot must be trained to react to any sort of emergency like if it is second-nature. How they do that is their problem - but there can be no compromise on this, or you will be out of the game
fast.
Quote
And I don't think you are woke. I think you are worse. You nominally disagree with "wokism" while confirming and approving of the intellectual basis for every one of their arguments. With friends like that, who needs enemies?
I like to think that I'm the guy who sleeps better if there are laws against bringing deadly viruses out of Level 4 labs while also being the guy who laughed hard watching "Stick and Stones" by David Chappelle. But let's say that you decided to close your argument with a list of things noteworthy only for having a single thing in common (i.e. "not even one of them is even close") and let's end it here.
Quote from: Reckall on February 28, 2021, 03:19:50 PM
Quote from: S'mon on February 28, 2021, 02:48:50 PM
Quote from: Reckall on February 28, 2021, 12:54:55 PM
AIDS, of course, didn't care at all about these shenanigans. It entered the blood banks. It was transmitted vie eterosexual intercourse
Outside Africa, AIDS pretty much never transmits through vaginal intercourse (yes it CAN happen - but it's extremely rare).
Yup, because "eterosexual intercourse" = "vaginal intercourse" 🙄
Well I was assuming you were making a non-trivial claim, as opposed to "AIDS doesn't care about the gender of the person you're sodomising - they can still catch AIDS off you." Was that actually disputed in your country? Here in the UK the govt propaganda made great efforts to persuade the heterosexual public they were just as much at risk from sex-without-condom as male homosexuals.
Quote from: Reckall on February 28, 2021, 03:46:03 PM
I see that you failed to even try to tackle some of the questions I made. OK.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on February 28, 2021, 03:31:33 PM
Quote from: Reckall on February 28, 2021, 03:11:49 PM
What amazes me is how something so commonly accepted like "Airline companies must perform maintenance and pilots must train for emergencies or people will die" (no one uses the force of gravity as a political tool, BTW, it works always and all by itself) all of sudden becomes a complex ethical/moral/political question when to be involved is... a deadly pandemic.
That fact that you don't understand that every single airline carefully balances the amount of maintenance and training they do between the safety it will provide and the cost and time (there is all kinds of optional maintenance that is done late, partially, or not at all, depending on the airline and circumstance) shows why you are clueless about this topic that you consider "obvious." Nothing in life is black-and-white. Everything is a trade-off. You just don't want to allow anyone else to determine the trade-off they want.
An airline has the duty to keep its planes in the air, and a pilot must be trained to react to any sort of emergency like if it is second-nature. How they do that is their problem - but there can be no compromise on this, or you will be out of the game fast.
Quote
And I don't think you are woke. I think you are worse. You nominally disagree with "wokism" while confirming and approving of the intellectual basis for every one of their arguments. With friends like that, who needs enemies?
I like to think that I'm the guy who sleeps better if there are laws against bringing deadly viruses out of Level 4 labs while also being the guy who laughed hard watching "Stick and Stones" by David Chappelle. But let's say that you decided to close your argument with a list of things noteworthy only for having a single thing in common (i.e. "not even one of them is even close") and let's end it here.
I keep trying to bring this back on the topic of RPGs, but you don't seem to have any interest in that (then why post here?). The woke say, "You can either be welcoming to everyone, or you can be insulting/dangerous. Not using preferred pronouns, X-cards, and codes of conduct, and using evil orcs, non-inclusive language and situations, not purposefully putting LGBTQ+ in every part of your adventure is unwelcoming. It's a matter of common sense and objective reality. There's no compromise on this." How do you argue with that? You've used the same logic above.
Quote from: S'mon on February 28, 2021, 03:48:45 PM
Quote from: Reckall on February 28, 2021, 03:19:50 PM
Quote from: S'mon on February 28, 2021, 02:48:50 PM
Quote from: Reckall on February 28, 2021, 12:54:55 PM
AIDS, of course, didn't care at all about these shenanigans. It entered the blood banks. It was transmitted vie eterosexual intercourse
Outside Africa, AIDS pretty much never transmits through vaginal intercourse (yes it CAN happen - but it's extremely rare).
Yup, because "eterosexual intercourse" = "vaginal intercourse" 🙄
Well I was assuming you were making a non-trivial claim, as opposed to "AIDS doesn't care about the gender of the person you're sodomising - they can still catch AIDS off you." Was that actually disputed in your country? Here in the UK the govt propaganda made great efforts to persuade the heterosexual public they were just as much at risk from sex-without-condom as male homosexuals.
My uncle was, at the time, the director of the Infectious Diseases Center at the Policlinico di Milano. I was still a kid but I was fascinated by his tales. Regarding AIDS he always grumbled against "the politicians in the US and the Vatican over here." From what I remember, when AIDS became a big thing here in Italy the Catholic Church made a big fuss about the idea of using condoms as a preventive measure. The result, for once, was a lot of pushback. At the end the government choose the simplest message "You can get AIDS by having unprotected sex. Condoms are your friend."
The problems with that pandemic, in the USA, initially came from two opposite sources. On one side, the Republican party, then very strong, wasn't inclined to "waste" money and resources to research the so-called "Gay Cancer". On the other side, the gay lobbies themselves feared that this "Gay Cancer" thinghie could give bad optics to the gay movement as a whole, after a series of important political achievements it had gotten in the late '70s. Scientists from agencies like the CDC and National Institute for Allergy and Infectious Diseases (where a young Dr. Fauci was already toiling away!) were overworked and with a shoestring budget. After heterosexual transmission was finally confirmed, politics reared another ugly head, because anti-gay movements weren't happy that the "Gay Cancer" wasn't gay anymore; and so they pressured politicians to shot down even further any research in that direction. Ah, well...
My main source for all of this is "And the Band Played On" by Randy Shilts. Amazing book. Other good books about infectious diseases are "The Coming Plague" by Laurie Garret (I based on this my comic book script back in the '90s), and "The Great Influenza" by John M. Barry (about the Spanish Flu of 1919-20, but also how that pandemic basically kickstarted modern medical thought - one can only hope...)
Quote from: Eirikrautha on February 28, 2021, 04:05:12 PM
I keep trying to bring this back on the topic of RPGs, but you don't seem to have any interest in that
I actually did post about RPGs in this context, and more than one paragraph. Go back. This time
read what I posted. Then come back here.
Quote from: Reckall on February 28, 2021, 04:44:27 PM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on February 28, 2021, 04:05:12 PM
I keep trying to bring this back on the topic of RPGs, but you don't seem to have any interest in that
I actually did post about RPGs in this context, and more than one paragraph. Go back. This time read what I posted. Then come back here.
No. Answer my question. Then figure out why you're part of the problem.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on February 28, 2021, 04:45:34 PM
Quote from: Reckall on February 28, 2021, 04:44:27 PM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on February 28, 2021, 04:05:12 PM
I keep trying to bring this back on the topic of RPGs, but you don't seem to have any interest in that
I actually did post about RPGs in this context, and more than one paragraph. Go back. This time read what I posted. Then come back here.
No. Answer my question. Then figure out why you're part of the problem.
For this whole thread you made failed analogies, didn't answer to my questions about them (and much else), mistook science for personal approach to a form of expressive art, misrepresented the role of science in society, failed to answer why some rules are routinely accepted but others - if anything even more sane - caused trouble, accused me to not talk about RPGs when I devoted whole paragraphs to them explaining how you can't apply to make-believe the same form of reasoning you apply to a
pandemic (and a flawed form of reasoning in a first place, IMHO), I pointed out how such reasoning led to, basically, a humanitarian catastrophe - something that thankfully will never be the result of people playing RPGs the way they want... and
I am part of... some problem? Get a grip.
Quote from: Reckall on February 28, 2021, 05:35:17 PM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on February 28, 2021, 04:45:34 PM
Quote from: Reckall on February 28, 2021, 04:44:27 PM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on February 28, 2021, 04:05:12 PM
I keep trying to bring this back on the topic of RPGs, but you don't seem to have any interest in that
I actually did post about RPGs in this context, and more than one paragraph. Go back. This time read what I posted. Then come back here.
No. Answer my question. Then figure out why you're part of the problem.
For this whole thread you made failed analogies, didn't answer to my questions about them (and much else), mistook science for personal approach to a form of expressive art, misrepresented the role of science in society, failed to answer why some rules are routinely accepted but others - if anything even more sane - caused trouble, accused me to not talk about RPGs when I devoted whole paragraphs to them explaining how you can't apply to make-believe the same form of reasoning you apply to a pandemic (and a flawed form of reasoning in a first place, IMHO), I pointed out how such reasoning led to, basically, a humanitarian catastrophe - something that thankfully will never be the result of people playing RPGs the way they want... and I am part of... some problem? Get a grip.
I have a far more solid grip than you do, based on that delusional screed. Now, how would you respond to the SJW demand as presented in my previous post? Your opinion is politics, but mine is reality? That's all you have...
Quote from: TJS on February 25, 2021, 04:49:13 PM
I quit Enworld recently.
Most of the userbase there are really just fans - they're not there to create or to fix or have productive discussions which lead to better gaming or anything like that, but just to argue in a fannish way.
...this... seems to be an interesting new trend I have not seen before. In the early days our arguments evolved around fixing the game, or creating a better game. Then we got into the TSR era, and the arguments were about which edition of the game was better 0D&D or 1eAD&D, or 2e AD&D and that argument was quickly solved by the marketing department at TSR, which pushed each new edition with everything they had, burying the early editions in waves of undeserved hostility, rancor, and cynicism.
3e was actually a renaissance, a temporary improvement on all of this, and an era where the players were encouraged to participate, and create anew again, defining and redefining the game to suit them. 4e was an unmitigated disaster, the first stirrings of that new school enforced political correctness and of wokeness from Wotc, where they tried to force "The One True Way (tm)" of playing on everyone who had ever played D&D and roleplaying games.
5e seems to be 3e on rails, with a very tightly bound IP, that only reinforces the dominance of Wotc (and Hasbro), at the expense of creativity and innovation for D&D (But not roleplaying in general), as everyone has now figured out they can create and play what they want. The consumer masses though seem fixated on arguing about modern issues in society most are which are purely speculative, or created solely at the alter of a group that perceives itself as persecuted, which to me, seems to be arguments that are a complete waste of time, because they will never actually fix any problems with the game, and is also very unlikely to solve the cultural problems that the woke players are continually engaged with.
Also an Interesting side note on this, the latter cultural problems might actually be solved if the players, actually... you know... roleplay... and take on the aspects of their ideological foes, in an attempt to better understand why each side holds the belief that they do, but this is (and always has) been blocked by that small sjw clique that secretly wants to control all of the narratives and agendas related to roleplaying in general.
Italians change their government more often than they change socks, so this whole discussion is quite hilarious. And also completely unrelated to RPGs...can you fucktards please take this crap somewhere else?
Quote from: Reckall on February 28, 2021, 05:35:17 PM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on February 28, 2021, 04:45:34 PM
Quote from: Reckall on February 28, 2021, 04:44:27 PM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on February 28, 2021, 04:05:12 PM
I keep trying to bring this back on the topic of RPGs, but you don't seem to have any interest in that
I actually did post about RPGs in this context, and more than one paragraph. Go back. This time read what I posted. Then come back here.
No. Answer my question. Then figure out why you're part of the problem.
For this whole thread you made failed analogies, didn't answer to my questions about them (and much else), mistook science for personal approach to a form of expressive art, misrepresented the role of science in society, failed to answer why some rules are routinely accepted but others - if anything even more sane - caused trouble, accused me to not talk about RPGs when I devoted whole paragraphs to them explaining how you can't apply to make-believe the same form of reasoning you apply to a pandemic (and a flawed form of reasoning in a first place, IMHO), I pointed out how such reasoning led to, basically, a humanitarian catastrophe - something that thankfully will never be the result of people playing RPGs the way they want... and I am part of... some problem? Get a grip.
I'm going to try to explain this to you one final time.
First off, I do "science" every day, for a living. And the near-religious reverence you seem to have for the slanted pronouncements by politicians in the name of science shows you know nothing about the subject. Science is a process, not a product. In science, you can do everything right 100 times, and still get the "wrong" answer, for many reasons. Sometimes because you are asking the wrong question, or the right question in the wrong way. Sometimes because something you've never considered is confounding the issue. And sometimes because people's biases affect the results (unintentionally, and intentionally). I'd bet money I've read more peer-reviewed science articles in my professional capacity than you can name journals, and 75+% of them get contradicted within 6 months. Science is not the Bible. Scientists are not priests. They have no "special" knowledge that ordinary people do not, except that gained through years of study or experience. But they are wrong more than they are right, and they are people. So appeals to science are nothing but masked appeals to authority.
Which takes us to the heart of the argument. When you declare certain ideas to be objectively true, due to your (limited) understanding and your faith in "science," you also implicitly allow others to assert the same. So whoever has the "best" authority wins. And in this day and age, all of those authorities that are quoted by the media are both woke, and willing to lie to get what they want.
I, on the other hand, don't believe that I should have the power to force you to live according to the pronouncements of my "authorities," be they religious or political. But that is what you advocate (you started off talking about your politicians and Navy, both of whom exist to FORCE others to do what is demanded!). The reality is that NOTHING is settled beyond dispute. Even if you could prove the Earth was warming (which depends on a LOT of assumptions. For example, what is the proper temperature to measure? The highest during the day? The lowest? The average? A weighted average of all of the temps in 24 hours? Even if we
could measure these things, look into it and you'd be surprised how little temperature data is actually available, even to scientists who study it... I had a friend at UVA that did it for a living), the decision as to what to do is political. And you have joined the side of those who believe that their "science" gets to tell you what to do to "fix" the problem. I believe that we all need to decide what trade-offs we are willing to live with.
The SJWs in this hobby will beat you over the head with their "experts" on gender, or racism, or the social impact of media. They assert that, because their experts have said your role-playing game is the cause of transpeople killing themselves, you need to change. And what leg do you have to stand on? You've already agreed that "science" gets to command all of us. You can be a slavish follower of those that know "better" (though that hasn't worked out too well for you guys in the last 100 years, has it?). But you are now giving the power to anyone with a louder "expert" to force everyone to obey. And that's just stupid...
Quote from: Brad on February 28, 2021, 06:52:41 PM
Italians change their government more often than they change socks, so this whole discussion is quite hilarious. And also completely unrelated to RPGs...can you fucktards please take this crap somewhere else?
I disagree. It is predicated on a mindset that is directly responsible for the infiltration of our hobby. And it needs to be pushed back on. Not pushing back on the intellectual foundations of wokism is how they got this far in the first place. And I'm tired of my hobby being held hostage to whomever has the loudest megaphone. I just want to play games...
Quote from: Reckall on February 28, 2021, 12:54:55 PM
Quote from: Pat on February 28, 2021, 10:58:21 AM
You literally just talked about political alliances, political figures, and political fringe groups, and made multiple appeals to science without discussing any science at all. And you think that's nonpolitical?
How a government acts is political, no doubt about that. What matters is the basis on which these acts are founded. Some of them are objective, as understood by science and experience. And are these fundaments that should never be politicised.
Okay....
Quote from: Reckall on February 28, 2021, 12:54:55 PM
Then, all of sudden (*), a pandemic arrives, and measures considered the absolute basics since how germs work was understood, like masks and social distancing (and one could argue how quarantine and social distancing were enforced even before) become "politicised". That getting sick can make you infect others - and thus become a vector and a danger to third parts not unlikely DUIing - was somehow lost in the shuffle (with the results we saw, like, in the USA). Why? Mostly because the Coronavirus can't care less about your "You will not take away my freedom!" slogans (the same being true for any kind of pathogens BTW).
.... and then you politicize science.
How many studies showed the effectiveness of masks to help prevent community spread, prior to the pandemic?
What was the WHO's guidance on lockdowns, in 2019?
Answer key: 0 and "never justified".
Quote from: Reckall on February 28, 2021, 12:54:55 PM
(*) A pandemic, BTW, which wasn't unexpected at all. Even I wrote, in a comic book, published in 1996, that we could expect it in a matter of decades - and why (someone remembered this feat of mine and published an article about it - it is in Italian but you can use Google translate: http://www.lucidamente.com/45604-perche-il-coronavirus-e-perche-in-futuro-ce-ne-saranno-altri/)
"Cassandras!" were called on this very forum those who expressed concern, back in early 2020, about the news coming from China, and then Italy and other countries. Which was the correct label. Cassandra, as the myth tells us, was always right. It was those she spoke to who were cursed not to believe her - only to sink shortly thereafter.
You're comparing yourself to the most famous oracle in history because you predicted something that's been a staple of fiction and emergency planning for more than a century?
And you'd probably be surprised if you went back and read my posts at the start of the pandemic.
Edit: The Greek reference reminds me of an interesting book,
Constructing Cassandra by Milo Jones and Philippe Silberzahn. It's about the CIA, and how they failed so spectacularly to predict, well, almost everything. (E.g. claiming Russia is about to overtake the US economically -- in the 1980s.) And the reason for that disastrous series of failures is precisely because they see everything through a political lens.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on February 28, 2021, 06:57:59 PM
Quote from: Brad on February 28, 2021, 06:52:41 PM
Italians change their government more often than they change socks, so this whole discussion is quite hilarious. And also completely unrelated to RPGs...can you fucktards please take this crap somewhere else?
I disagree. It is predicated on a mindset that is directly responsible for the infiltration of our hobby. And it needs to be pushed back on. Not pushing back on the intellectual foundations of wokism is how they got this far in the first place. And I'm tired of my hobby being held hostage to whomever has the loudest megaphone. I just want to play games...
Greetings!
Eirikrautha, as much as I sympathize with Brad's sentiments--and he definitely fights against the SJW's and the woke morons--you make a very strong statement here that I must eagerly applaud. You are exactly right, and your righteous conviction in standing against the intellectual foundations of the SJW's which slime their way into every conversation and aspect of society must always be vigorously resisted and called out.
Keep up the fight, Eirikrautha! ;D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Pat on February 28, 2021, 07:20:27 PM
How many studies showed the effectiveness of masks to help prevent community spread, prior to the pandemic?
What was the WHO's guidance on lockdowns, in 2019?
Well, WHO completely failed to isolate the early outbreak and prevent the spread of Covids, so whatever they actually did, or could do to mitigate the disaster, was completely irrelevant, including whatever they recommended for lockdowns and quarantine which was not properly implemented. That's on WHO and the Doctors in charge of quarantine protocols by the way.
The CDC has stated for years a masked or biological hazards protocol is ineffective and won't work. They removed that statement from their website though, after the start of the pandemic last year, at the direction of U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, which was, incidentally the organization that was responsible for bringing Covids to the human population. HHS secretly employed the Chinese in the Wuhan Virology Lab, and CDC mooks, by issuing a 7.4 Million dollar federal contract for them to research new and interesting ways to transmit Covids (which was a bat disease) to humans. They did this in direct contravention to a standing American Executive order specifically prohibiting such research as it could be considered bio-weapons research which has been outlawed by the U.S. and other foreign major powers with an international treaty. That rat Fauci... knew and approved of this research, only some retarded fucker who handles bats at the CDC lab (Just two city blcoks from the Wuhan Seafood Market, btw, where the original outbreak occurred) fucked up and got bit by an infected bat or mishandled a bat that had been infected with a new strain of Covids created in the Wuhan Virology Lab, and then gave it to all his Chinese market friends when shopping for fresh fish. Patient Zero, as far as I know, was a fish delivery driver, from the Wuhan Seafood Market, but he really caught the virus from somewhere else, and the only two places in town you could find bat Covids, was the CDC lab located a street over from the fish market, or the Wuhan Virology Lab located about three miles away, across the yellow river.
I'll keep this simple though for those that might be a tad slow in reading comprehension here... About half the population has an IQ of 100 or more, being the smarter half of the rest of the population. These folks, we can reasonably expect to use masks correctly, and follow quarantine protocols. If everyone did so for about three weeks. This virus would simply vanish, and we would very likely never see it again (unless of course, it was re-introduced by Fauci along with his weaseley friends at HHS).
Then of course there is that population with an IQ of less than 100 who simply refuses to wear any masks at all, or ineffectively wears masks (illustrations included here for reference)
(https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fdannysullivan%2Fstatus%2F1017320831653801984&psig=AOvVaw3iTAw6u--tNTfF6j2Tgqg3&ust=1614649071708000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAIQjRxqFwoTCMjK0dT6je8CFQAAAAAdAAAAABAF)
(https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bloomberg.com%2Fopinion%2Farticles%2F2020-06-20%2Fwear-a-mask-skip-it-or-just-stay-home-weighing-covid-19-risks&psig=AOvVaw3DOGxoNLOolYT9XcfghvNu&ust=1614649061534000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAIQjRxqFwoTCMDN7-_6je8CFQAAAAAdAAAAABAD)
Walmart Man
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ebo2Q2kXgAIxLu1.jpg)
(https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/914069c02b1fea9ed68cc5be78db90305d4b100d/0_196_3000_1800/master/3000.jpg?width=445&quality=45&auto=format&fit=max&dpr=2&s=9f07ebaee1744e9d4d4289b8fc760770)
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/bc/4c/f0/bc4cf0990c9041ee3737f3a39ceff105.jpg)
(https://assets.bwbx.io/images/users/iqjWHBFdfxIU/ilzf21UlDDZc/v1/1000x-1.jpg)
We might actually be able to isolate the virus by taking these dorks out and shooting them in the head. However they are about half the population, and include cops, military troops, and about 1/3 of the Senate and Congress, along with an extraordinary number of Republicans so this is actually not a practical solution. If we just let the virus run its course, then the vulnerable die and all the naturally immune continue on with life, which is all good, unless one of the infected and dying happens to be your mom, dad, favorite uncle, girlfriend, or husband, or whatever.
It's really all on the Doctors though. They created the ethics and systems that allowed this nasty virus to be created. and they should fix the horrific problem they created. Not so easy when Pandora gets out of the box though.
(Edited out some covid, because it doesn't belong on this board.)
Quote from: Brad on February 28, 2021, 06:52:41 PM
Italians change their government more often than they change socks, so this whole discussion is quite hilarious. And also completely unrelated to RPGs...can you fucktards please take this crap somewhere else?
I walk away for a few hours and this happens...
ahem...
But yeah thats a few pages wasted.
Back on topic, such as it is.
Once a fora becomes infested with these cultists, either openly or covertly, theres usually little you can do to stop the disease spreading. You might slow it down. But eventually they will allmost certainly gain enough control to start ousting those they dissapprove. Or making the place so hostile to free thinking that anyone sane bails.
That is assuming the rot was not there from the start and just acts as a locus to attract more.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on February 28, 2021, 06:55:49 PM
First off, I do "science" every day, for a living. And the near-religious reverence you seem to have for the slanted pronouncements by politicians in the name of science shows you know nothing about the subject. Science is a process, not a product. In science, you can do everything right 100 times, and still get the "wrong" answer, for many reasons. Sometimes because you are asking the wrong question, or the right question in the wrong way. Sometimes because something you've never considered is confounding the issue. And sometimes because people's biases affect the results (unintentionally, and intentionally). I'd bet money I've read more peer-reviewed science articles in my professional capacity than you can name journals, and 75+% of them get contradicted within 6 months. Science is not the Bible. Scientists are not priests. They have no "special" knowledge that ordinary people do not, except that gained through years of study or experience. But they are wrong more than they are right, and they are people. So appeals to science are nothing but masked appeals to authority.
Which takes us to the heart of the argument. When you declare certain ideas to be objectively true, due to your (limited) understanding and your faith in "science," you also implicitly allow others to assert the same. So whoever has the "best" authority wins. And in this day and age, all of those authorities that are quoted by the media are both woke, and willing to lie to get what they want.
I, on the other hand, don't believe that I should have the power to force you to live according to the pronouncements of my "authorities," be they religious or political. But that is what you advocate (you started off talking about your politicians and Navy, both of whom exist to FORCE others to do what is demanded!). The reality is that NOTHING is settled beyond dispute. Even if you could prove the Earth was warming (which depends on a LOT of assumptions. For example, what is the proper temperature to measure? The highest during the day? The lowest? The average? A weighted average of all of the temps in 24 hours? Even if we could measure these things, look into it and you'd be surprised how little temperature data is actually available, even to scientists who study it... I had a friend at UVA that did it for a living), the decision as to what to do is political. And you have joined the side of those who believe that their "science" gets to tell you what to do to "fix" the problem. I believe that we all need to decide what trade-offs we are willing to live with.
That was really well said, in fact I'm saving that to paraphrase the next time I have to discuss these issues with some fool who has religious faith in science but no actual clue as to what it is.
But tell me more about this new and unimproved ENWorld? ;D
Well, I put up a poll about D&D artists over there and so far Elmore, Otus and Easley are winning, so it can't be all bad, right?
8)
Quote from: BronzeDragon on March 01, 2021, 03:17:18 AM
Well, I put up a poll about D&D artists over there and so far Elmore, Otus and Easley are winning, so it can't be all bad, right?
8)
death to the anime art style; of all the things that do not belong in this hobby that art style plucks my chicken w/o lubrication.
Quote from: Brad on February 28, 2021, 06:52:41 PM
Italians change their government more often than they change socks, so this whole discussion is quite hilarious. And also completely unrelated to RPGs...
It is not "completely unrelated to RPGs" at all. It makes you a better Keeper at running "Under a Winter's Snow" and "Autophagia" for Call of Cthulhu 7E ;)
All subjects of general politics, Covid politics, mask wearing, etc is all OFF TOPIC to this forum. People who continue to post about any off-topic will be banned.
Blah blah since we can't delete any more after the "upgarde"
Quote from: TJS on February 25, 2021, 04:49:13 PM
Most of the userbase there are really just fans - they're not there to create or to fix or have productive discussions which lead to better gaming or anything like that, but just to argue in a fannish way.
I think for most RPGs and forums, it's this way.
Yes, you'll have people who are SJWs, and thrn you'll have the ones who bend over backwards to them, and then most of them just want to play.
Quote from: Slipshot762 on March 01, 2021, 05:11:39 AM
Quote from: BronzeDragon on March 01, 2021, 03:17:18 AM
Well, I put up a poll about D&D artists over there and so far Elmore, Otus and Easley are winning, so it can't be all bad, right?
8)
death to the anime art style; of all the things that do not belong in this hobby that art style plucks my chicken w/o lubrication.
The Record of Lodoss War OVA is "BX D&D: the anime".
Quote from: Pat on February 28, 2021, 10:17:43 PM
(Edited out some covid, because it doesn't belong on this board.)
Actually does belong on this board. ...Also that the U.S. was the source of the Covids virus is not a
"conspiracy theory", and really there is no such thing as a conspiracy theory, that is actually a phrase coined by the CIA to discredit the exploration of facts and ideas to arrive at the truth. It's used to limit the thinking patterns of other people, and to simply discredit people, nothing more. Theories are in fact not "conspiracy theories" but are theories without any supporting facts that require further investigations to arrive at the truth. Sometimes theories are just that, theories, but in this case, there are relevant facts to be considered.
So let's look at the facts, today, and now. Health and Human Services, in 2019 issued a 3.7 million dollar grant to the Wuhan Virology Lab to study the transmission of the covids virus. Until then, no one was traveling the five hundred miles or so, and going into the bat caves in Western China to capture bats infected with Covids. These infected bats who had pretty much stayed in their caves and didn't interact with humans at all, ....at any point in living history.... until the Chinese "scientists" went into the caves with their butterfly nets and captured these infected bats and then brought them enmasse to the CDC lab (not the virology lab) there was no covids at all in Wuhan. The lead "researcher/bat capturer" had quarantined himself twice after being bitten by these bats in the CDC lab.
Here's an article from April of 2020 where President Trump cancels the contract and the funding for the b̶i̶o̶r̶e̶s̶e̶a̶r̶c̶h̶ "scientific research".
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/27/trump-cuts-research-bat-human-virus-china-213076
Why were the Chinese doing this
"scientific research?" BECAUSE IT HAD BEEN OUTLAWED BY AN EXECUTIVE ORDER ISSUED BY PRESIDENT OBAMA BACK IN 2013!!!!
Here's an article from the New York Times where the whitehouse cut the funding for the risky biological study" which was in fact SARS/Covid "Gain of function" research. Up until then Bat Covids didn't effect humans, and wasn't transmittable by humans...
https://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/18/us/white-house-to-cut-funding-for-risky-biological-study.html
Here it is directly from the whitehouse
https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/blog/2014/10/17/doing-diligence-assess-risks-and-benefits-life-sciences-gain-function-research
So the scumbags in HHS and at CDC just issued a contract, and then awarded it to the Chinese, who had no moratorium on conducting such unethical research, although I'm certain the Chinese government will no longer willingly conduct such research, for obvious reasons. The Chinese even claimed the Americans were responsible, and they weren't lying.
I have copies of MERS and SARS patents going back to 2003 or so. Were they originally issued to or by the Chinese? Noooooooo... U.S. and European companies filed and currently own the original patents on SARS and MERS.
You know all that stimulus money is just bribe money, right? The U.S. Medical community doesn't want to take responsibility for the pandemic it unleashed and is distracting the masses with bread (stimulus) and circuses...
(https://www.yourtango.com/sites/default/files/styles/header_slider/public/image_blog/jake-angeli.jpg?itok=kyXsXfz8)
P.S. Pundit. Feel free to join the sjw
"cancel culture" and ban me for telling the simple truth on your message board. I fucking dare you! The day I'm not allowed to speak about the truth of what is happening in the real world on one of my favorite game boards, is the day I don't belong there anyway.
There's another thread (https://www.therpgsite.com/the-rpgpundit-s-own-forum/covid-the-lockdowns-etc/) for that topic. You're not silenced, you've just misfiled the library book with the wrong Dewey decimal reference. It's like arguing about Ars Magica when we're playing D&D.
Now about ENWorld: I never got into ENWorld. Any interesting subforums or discussions someone could point me to? rpg-related, I mean. Usually forums are at their most interesting just before they go SJW - it's because they were getting interesting the SJWs had to turn them shitty. So there must be some good stuff there now! Show me!
Quote from: GameDaddy on March 02, 2021, 05:39:26 AM
Quote from: Pat on February 28, 2021, 10:17:43 PM
(Edited out some covid, because it doesn't belong on this board.)
P.S. Pundit. Feel free to join the sjw "cancel culture" and ban me for telling the simple truth on your message board. I fucking dare you! The day I'm not allowed to speak about the truth of what is happening in the real world on one of my favorite game boards, is the day I don't belong there anyway.
LOL, Has that ever worked for anyone? Ever? Let me guess what is next! Are you going to DOUBLE DOG DARE HIM? Yeah do THAT! Nobody could EVER resist the DOUBLE DOG DARE!
Come on Dude. Either play by the rules or don't. That's fine if you do not like the rules and end up deciding to leave over them. It's even fine to stat that fact. That's how a lot of us ended up here instead of over on ENworld. Say your peace and leave like a adult.
Screaming and yelling and DARING Mods to Kick you? Why? Do you really think that they will change the entire site and alter the rules just so you can post whatever YOU feel is TRUE regardless of what they want the board to be about? No, No way do you really think that right.
What you want is to signal to others ...Look at me! Look at what they are gonna do to me!
Bah! Stand up and be an adult.
I for one do not want to see Politics and Covid and mask wearing all over the place here. I literally get all that EVERY SINGLE OTHER PLACE it would be awesome to have one place to just talk role playing games.
Quote from: GameDaddy on March 02, 2021, 05:39:26 AM
<anemic off topic bitching here>
P.S. Pundit. Feel free to join the sjw "cancel culture" and ban me for telling the simple truth on your message board. I fucking dare you! The day I'm not allowed to speak about the truth of what is happening in the real world on one of my favorite game boards, is the day I don't belong there anyway.
Actually, I think it would be more constructive if Pundit didn't ban you, but instead made fun of you for your learning disabilities and inability to read simple English.
Quote from: GameDaddy on March 02, 2021, 05:39:26 AM
*EDITED: COVID STUFF*
P.S. Pundit. Feel free to join the sjw "cancel culture" and ban me for telling the simple truth on your message board. I fucking dare you! The day I'm not allowed to speak about the truth of what is happening in the real world on one of my favorite game boards, is the day I don't belong there anyway.
You would be perfectly free to post what you did on this forum. Just NOT ON THIS SUBFORUM, WHICH IS ABOUT GAMING.
Don't post in this thread again, and don't post about off-topic material on the RPG Discussion forum at all. This is your only warning.
I wish more gamers would act like adults instead of children in adult bodies.
I don't agree with Pundit yet if he says take the conversation elsewhere on the forum do so. None one here is interested in an immature display of the Oppression Olympics. I just don't get the acting like it's a badge of honour to asked to be banned. Again no one cares and most mature (at least mentally) gamers just leave with some dignity.
Yes other forums are more repressive yet at the same time gamers decide have an immature public meltdown then wonder why they were banned "unfairly".
Quote from: Gameogre on March 02, 2021, 07:58:34 AM
LOL, Has that ever worked for anyone? Ever? Let me guess what is next! Are you going to DOUBLE DOG DARE HIM? Yeah do THAT! Nobody could EVER resist the DOUBLE DOG DARE!
Come on Dude. Either play by the rules or don't. That's fine if you do not like the rules and end up deciding to leave over them. It's even fine to stat that fact. That's how a lot of us ended up here instead of over on ENworld. Say your peace and leave like a adult.
Screaming and yelling and DARING Mods to Kick you? Why? Do you really think that they will change the entire site and alter the rules just so you can post whatever YOU feel is TRUE regardless of what they want the board to be about? No, No way do you really think that right.
What you want is to signal to others ...Look at me! Look at what they are gonna do to me!
Bah! Stand up and be an adult.
I for one do not want to see Politics and Covid and mask wearing all over the place here. I literally get all that EVERY SINGLE OTHER PLACE it would be awesome to have one place to just talk role playing games.
One of the reasons I joined this board way back in 2006, is because the cancel culture that already existed elsewhere. This was literally the last place I could go to talk about the games and subjects that I wanted to talk about without being censored, having my posts modified, moved, or outright deleted. It was the single reason I joined this discussion forum.
Everyone else at the time was saying.... Ohhh the RPGSite?... It's like Mos Eisely Spaceport over there, go there if you want to get into a fight, get raped online, or have your eyes stabbed out with fire. There's a bunch of Baaaaaad gamers over there, people that you don't really want to get to know or like, for that matter.
Back then it was the cunts at WOTC that first ran me off their message boards over there becuase they didn't like what I wanted to talk about, in regards to gaming, or in regards to how to treat other gamers. Enworld was still known as Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News, and no one there cared to talk about original D&D. RPG.Net was just showing signs of being severely dysfunctional with the white wolf crowd preaching their "one true way" to play RPGs in the new age, standing shoulder to shoulder with the Indy Games crowd preaching the GNS gaming theories and other fucked up ways to game, that came from the folks at the Forge. All they wanted, is the same thing the sjw now want, and that is complete control over any discussions about gaming. They were quite happy making their kiddie rape games like Maid, and trying to foist that crap off as a real RPG, when in fact, they weren't really interested in RPGS at all.
I found this place quite comfortable because I could speak the truth, and drag lying cunts like Pat through the fires of truth. He wants to be snide, and an ass because he thinks he knows what the words "conspiracy theory" means, meanwhile he is the child of creators of conspiracy theories, and does their bidding, trying to force everyone into the one true way (tm) of correctly thinking, when in fact such thinking is completely based on ignorance and unquestioningly following authorities.
The facts of the matter are the authorities lie, and then lie some more to cover up their lies, pretending people won't notice, or choose not see.
This is superbly relevant to gaming, and an on topic thread. We discuss gaming here, and truth and justice, and liberty, and how games should portray that.
How could we reasonably have RPG games accurately portray Truth, Justice, and Liberty, when the mods of a forum or board censor those who would speak the truth? That is the failure of RPG.net and also the failure (to a lesser extent) of enworld, dragonsfoot, and the 0D&D proboards. feeling good is more important there than the truth, and people need to be censored there just for being disagreeable, whether they are right or not, doesn't matter there.
Here, we have been, for the most part uncensored, and I would prefer it to remain that way. If not, Oh well. It would be a great loss though, since this is still one of the few gaming boards left, where speaking the truth of life and games is valued. But then again, perhaps not. We shall see.
What an utterly bizarre jeremiad in response to absolutely nothing.
Quote from: Pat on March 02, 2021, 10:49:29 AM
What an utterly bizarre jeremiad in response to absolutely nothing.
You only say this, because you don't even know what you are missing.
The problem with En World and all the other fora being taken over or co-opted by these nuts is that they rarely come in gunz-a-blazin. Instead they sneak in and poison the well a little at a time, turning people to their cult until they have enough leverage. A little demand here, a banning there, another more stringent demand, a few more bannings and so on.
The other problem is that several of the now increasingly worse fora allready had admin who were leaning that way to begin with. So the door was left open and the inevitable happens.
I think the only reaason BGG has not surpassed all the rest in crazy is that they are the only one I know of that relies heavily on revenue from sponsors and especially members to line their pockets. And as they have tightened their grip, censored more, and become more and more openly woke, that revenue has dwindled to the point the last 3 years they have barely made their year end funding goals.
That and resistance from publishers and forum members which is substantially larger than any of the others.
Quote from: GameDaddy on March 02, 2021, 10:29:54 AM
Here, we have been, for the most part uncensored, and I would prefer it to remain that way. If not, Oh well. It would be a great loss though, since this is still one of the few gaming boards left, where speaking the truth of life and games is valued. But then again, perhaps not. We shall see.
If this were ENWorld or rpg.net, you probably wouldn't have even gotten the warning. As it stands, just remember that when the ban comes its not going to be because of your political speech, its going to be because...
A) You're posting political speech that is not directly related to gaming in the section of the forum where that is banned (there are other sections for that).
B) You completed ignored Pundit's warning about not posting in this thread again... and not only did you do it with an attempt to swerve back on target, you did so by continuing precisely the things that the header and Pundit himself told you would lead to a ban.
So... here's pre-emptive "Bye!"
I hope your self-perceived martyrdom keeps you warm at night.
Quote from: Chris24601 on March 02, 2021, 06:15:43 PM
Quote from: GameDaddy on March 02, 2021, 10:29:54 AM
Here, we have been, for the most part uncensored, and I would prefer it to remain that way. If not, Oh well. It would be a great loss though, since this is still one of the few gaming boards left, where speaking the truth of life and games is valued. But then again, perhaps not. We shall see.
If this were ENWorld or rpg.net, you probably wouldn't have even gotten the warning. As it stands, just remember that when the ban comes its not going to be because of your political speech, its going to be because...
A) You're posting political speech that is not directly related to gaming in the section of the forum where that is banned (there are other sections for that).
B) You completed ignored Pundit's warning about not posting in this thread again... and not only did you do it with an attempt to swerve back on target, you did so by continuing precisely the things that the header and Pundit himself told you would lead to a ban.
So... here's pre-emptive "Bye!"
I hope your self-perceived martyrdom keeps you warm at night.
Byeeeeuhhh! Don't let the swinging saloon doors here hit your ass on the way out!
the actual subject of this thread is:
I'm shaking my head about ENWorld now. Is it becoming more like rpg.net?My question is, ....are we becoming more like RPG.net?
Not quite, it would seem. We don't ban people for talking about gaming and truth here, and if they ever do, I won't be posting over here on gaming, or anything else, because that would be meaningless, to post in a place where truth is not revered, a place like rpg.net. ...and what Enworld is becoming. If we really become like that here, then I don't really need to be here, and won't miss being here either...
I actually don't mind seeing people here clash over their ideals of what gaming should be, and to what extent politics should be interfering with our gaming. Such energetic and free discussions allow people the opportunity to determine for themselves what truths and models best serve gaming. Without it, all the gamers are in a boring lockstep, marching to the tune of one piper, whoever that may be.
QuoteThis is superbly relevant to gaming, and an on topic thread. We discuss gaming here, and truth and justice, and liberty, and how games should portray that.
Dude, like... not discussing politics in RPG part of board is rule here... dunno for a long time, at least few years.
So step of your high horse of "I have a right to say anything anywhere because it's Da Truth." That's language of internet maniacs thinking they can disrupt boards with their self-rightousness.
And such guys usually get banned even from boards very close in spirit to their believes. Not due to believes - DUE TO BEING INSUFFERABLE.
And this linking all this covid-talking with "how truth and justice should be portrayed in games" is just... stretching more than Russian ballerina.
Quotethe actual subject of this thread is: I'm shaking my head about ENWorld now. Is it becoming more like rpg.net?
My question is, ....are we becoming more like RPG.net?
The answer is: Nope. It's you who become more like wokester believing because he's right he can disrupt life of a board with his Woke Takes anytime he wants because they are DA TRUTH.
Boards are moderated. Boards have segments. Boards have rules. That's not being woke - that's being sane.
QuoteWe don't ban people for talking about gaming and truth here, and if they ever do, I won't be posting over here on gaming, or anything else, because that would be meaningless, to post in a place where truth is not revered,
Clever how you add truth to gaming to make weird logical twist - that every talking about truth is talking about gaming because... MAGIC.
Besides even if we would revere truth - why would we trust you to have and understand truth - if you cannot understand board rules.
Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on March 02, 2021, 07:27:24 PM
Clever how you add truth to gaming to make weird logical twist - that every talking about truth is talking about gaming because... MAGIC.
Besides even if we would revere truth - why would we trust you to have and understand truth - if you cannot understand board rules.
I don't want you to trust me. I want you to present better arguments than I do for what truth is.
When you simply dismiss someone, you are not presenting a better argument.
When you omit or ignore facts, you are not presenting a better argument. Not for a game, or not for politics. You are simply ignoring the facts, theories, and assumptions that already exist. None of them is being challenged. In such an environment how do you learn whether something is true, or not? Oh, I see.... Magic. Magically you know what is right or wrong?... show me how that works.
Pat says conspiracy theories. But Covids doesn't create itself out of nothing. It can't be transmitted if there is no environment for transmission (like if it is trapped in a fucking remote cave, with some nocturnal bats that never even go near humans, for example). How many people do you actually know that go rooting around in a cave to capture bats, specifically bats infected with Sars or Covids. Did he, even once, propose a better idea for how all those Chinese got infected with Covids, which previously didn't infect humans by the way. He basically called me a liar on this board, without offering any proof, any proof at all, anything else happened. I don't have to put up with that.
...and you, invoking MAGIC. What kind of Magic kills free speech and the fraternity of a brotherhood of gamers that do value you the truth, both in the real world, and with RPG games?
Quote from: GameDaddy on March 02, 2021, 07:46:09 PM
I don't want you to trust me. I want you to present better arguments than I do for what truth is.
Here's a Truth for you. You're posting on a privatley owned message board. While the owner has a dedication to free speech ideals, it's not absolute. For instance, I was told to change my avatar from a Nazi Dinosaur with machine guns strapped to it's horns because (I assume) the dinosaur had a Nazi Swastika on it's side.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron on March 02, 2021, 06:27:05 AM
Now about ENWorld: I never got into ENWorld. Any interesting subforums or discussions someone could point me to? rpg-related, I mean. Usually forums are at their most interesting just before they go SJW - it's because they were getting interesting the SJWs had to turn them shitty. So there must be some good stuff there now! Show me!
This is still my question.
QuoteI don't want you to trust me. I want you to present better arguments than I do for what truth is.
OH FOR FUCK'S SAKE. What part of NOT IN THIS THREAD is too hard to you :P
Quote...and you, invoking MAGIC. What kind of Magic kills free speech and the fraternity of a brotherhood of gamers that do value you the truth, both in the real world, and with RPG games?
Brotherhood of gamers does not value truth. They value lot of XP, and big Charisma bonuses. Get over it :P
QuoteThis is still my question.
I discussed there last few days inspired by this thread. It's not very bad. But it's terribly D&D and consortes centric, so it's kinda meh.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 02, 2021, 07:52:39 PM
Here's a Truth for you. You're posting on a privatley owned message board. While the owner has a dedication to free speech ideals, it's not absolute. For instance, I was told to change my avatar from a Nazi Dinosaur with machine guns strapped to it's horns because (I assume) the dinosaur had a Nazi Swastika on it's side.
Is this something we need to address? I suppose we could create a forum somewhere else, or a subforum here specifically for dinosaurs wired up with machine guns that display nazi swastika's for
"Der Fuehrer". The dinosaur with machineguns came from a parody movie by the way, They were making fun of Nazi's. That movie was named
Iron Sky and was made by a bunch of Finnish college students, and a few renegade German outlaws. Always thought that that would make a hilarious game. I especially liked the OneTrueWay(tm) Apple Acolytes.
For the record my Llamma packing twin .50 cals will smoke all the Nazi flag bearing Dinosaurs that show up! Also, if you like that so much, how come you haven't setup your own messageboard featuring all sorts or rebel dinosaurs?
(https://i.imgur.com/YhJb3oh.png)
Imagine being told you'll be banned if you post again and doing it like five more times, each reply more verbose and delusional than the next. Godspeed, sir.
The funny thing? I never said a thing about the origins of covid. This is entirely a fantasy in GameDaddy's head.
Quote from: Pat on March 02, 2021, 08:22:31 PM
The funny thing? I never said a thing about the origins of covid. This is entirely a fantasy in GameDaddy's head.
Did you miss the part where I said delusional? I had ignored the dude on the old site because of this sort of stuff, just in time to see it flame out entirely.
Quote from: GameDaddy on March 02, 2021, 08:11:50 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 02, 2021, 07:52:39 PM
Here's a Truth for you. You're posting on a privatley owned message board. While the owner has a dedication to free speech ideals, it's not absolute. For instance, I was told to change my avatar from a Nazi Dinosaur with machine guns strapped to it's horns because (I assume) the dinosaur had a Nazi Swastika on it's side.
Is this something we need to address? I suppose we could create a forum somewhere else, or a subforum here specifically for dinosaurs wired up with machine guns that display nazi swastika's for "Der Fuehrer". The dinosaur with machineguns came from a parody movie by the way, They were making fun of Nazi's. That movie was named Iron Sky and was made by a bunch of Finnish college students, and a few renegade German outlaws. Always thought that that would make a hilarious game. I especially liked the OneTrueWay(tm) Apple Acolytes.
It was from the Danger 5 episode "Lizard Soldiers of the Third Reich".
The origial Iron Sky didn't have dinosaurs at all. You're probably thinking of the sequel, "The Coming Race".
But yes, I got called a literal Nazi by some posters here for having a Nazi Dinosaur as an Avatar. Fun times.
Keeping this on topic and answering that question above somewhere.
So far. No this forum is not becoming like the others. We do have a bit too many knee-jerk counter reactions. But honestly how can you not have those now as the situation actually worsens with each passing week nearly. But here people can call out the BS kneejerking and not be banned just for pointing it out.
We have these nuts infesting everything and no end in sight. En-World and other fora are only going to get worse as they get more co-opted and/or outright taken over. And every venue is facing the same thing.
Quote from: GameDaddy on March 02, 2021, 08:11:50 PM
That movie was named Iron Sky and was made by a bunch of Finnish college students, and a few renegade German outlaws. Always thought that that would make a hilarious game. I especially liked the OneTrueWay(tm) Apple Acolytes.
...actually, dinosaurs are in the sequel...
also
https://www.ironskytherpg.com/ (https://www.ironskytherpg.com/)
although apparently delayed...
Quote from: Omega on March 02, 2021, 09:10:20 PM
No this forum is not becoming like the others.
Yes it is. Not in the free speech or even the political sense, but in the methods of discourse. Because in the last decade or decade and a half everywhere online has become more strident and hostile as people look for offense in everything, treat a single divergent belief as proof people are the Enemy, bring politics into everything, and all the other crap that's the result of hyperpolarization. It's inevitable, because even the most niche board is downstream from the toxic sludge that oozes from the wider culture.
An actual, camel-mounted swivel gun is so much cooler than a pack llama that just happens to be carrying a .50cal.
(https://i.stack.imgur.com/HrIcH.jpg)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zamburak
Quote from: Kyle Aaron on March 02, 2021, 07:53:26 PM
Quote from: Kyle Aaron on March 02, 2021, 06:27:05 AM
Now about ENWorld: I never got into ENWorld. Any interesting subforums or discussions someone could point me to? rpg-related, I mean. Usually forums are at their most interesting just before they go SJW - it's because they were getting interesting the SJWs had to turn them shitty. So there must be some good stuff there now! Show me!
This is still my question.
I recommend going to https://www.enworld.org/forums/?skip=1 which gives you everything posted recently and just see if anything looks interesting. You can ignore the subform structure.
At this point GD is both troling and trying to get us to waste our time paying any kind of attention. If this person would act like away from the safety of his screen and keyboard he would be thrown out of most places.
Everyone and anyone is stunningly brave behind a screen. Let him rant and rave and pay no attention it's the worst thing anyone can do. As he seems to thrive on us paying him any form of attention.
Well, I did warn him.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 03, 2021, 09:29:12 AM
Well, I did warn him.
Is it a perma, or just a time out and threadban?
I'm not going to argue either way. I'm just curious.
(I would suggest we need an Infractions forum, but honestly, who wants to emulate TBP?)
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 03, 2021, 10:39:03 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 03, 2021, 09:29:12 AM
Well, I did warn him.
Is it a perma, or just a time out and threadban?
I'm not going to argue either way. I'm just curious.
(I would suggest we need an Infractions forum, but honestly, who wants to emulate TBP?)
We don't need a public square for shaming transgressors.
Quote from: Omega on March 02, 2021, 12:14:11 AM
Quote from: Slipshot762 on March 01, 2021, 05:11:39 AM
Quote from: BronzeDragon on March 01, 2021, 03:17:18 AM
Well, I put up a poll about D&D artists over there and so far Elmore, Otus and Easley are winning, so it can't be all bad, right?
8)
death to the anime art style; of all the things that do not belong in this hobby that art style plucks my chicken w/o lubrication.
The Record of Lodoss War OVA is "BX D&D: the anime".
There are a lot of D&D-influenced anime. Some of them are good, like
Record of Lodoss War. A lot of them, particularly the more recent wave of "video game mechanics applied to real life" with a side order of "power harem fantasy for horny virgins", are pretty bad.
BTW this "problematic TSR" thread was locked by Morris because it went into pure SJW and left D&D entirely - and Sacrosant was warned as biggest offender.
So maybe there's hope.
Quote from: Pat on March 02, 2021, 09:28:35 PM
Quote from: Omega on March 02, 2021, 09:10:20 PM
No this forum is not becoming like the others.
Yes it is. Not in the free speech or even the political sense, but in the methods of discourse. Because in the last decade or decade and a half everywhere online has become more strident and hostile as people look for offense in everything, treat a single divergent belief as proof people are the Enemy, bring politics into everything, and all the other crap that's the result of hyperpolarization. It's inevitable, because even the most niche board is downstream from the toxic sludge that oozes from the wider culture.
This has been a strident and hostile forum since I first joined. Nothings changed other than half the worst offenders have left to seek other forums to inflict themselves on or ones where their wokeness and hatefulness are welcomed and encouraged.
We transitioned from a full blown covert war with Storygamers to a full blown open war with the SJW cult. Both of which used the exact same tactics and pushed ever harder. Stringent and hostile eventually becomes the only option as there really never was another to begin with when dealing with these cults.
Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on March 03, 2021, 05:55:40 PM
BTW this "problematic TSR" thread was locked by Morris because it went into pure SJW and left D&D entirely - and Sacrosant was warned as biggest offender.
So maybe there's hope.
Sac will likely back off, or flounce off, but eventually will go downhill again. If anything he sounds even worse over there. Which is sad as he used to be near the opposite here.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron on March 02, 2021, 07:53:26 PM
Quote from: Kyle Aaron on March 02, 2021, 06:27:05 AM
Now about ENWorld: I never got into ENWorld. Any interesting subforums or discussions someone could point me to? rpg-related, I mean. Usually forums are at their most interesting just before they go SJW - it's because they were getting interesting the SJWs had to turn them shitty. So there must be some good stuff there now! Show me!
This is still my question.
Well I haven't saved any links. But even a year ago there was still some decent practical discussion of 5e taking place (although the signal to noise was never great). If you don't play 5e then you there isn't much to see.
Thing is, everything that can really be said about 5e has been said at this point. The issues with it are known issues and practical responses have been put forward and discussed to death.
This leaves practical discussion with nothing to talk about (as for some reason practical discussion about things like adventure/scenario design or settings is something that has almost never taken place on forums). So it's basically left to those who want to talk but have nothing to say.
In a completely unsurprising twist Sacrosanct's attempt at #VirtueSignaling is profoundly racist and hypocritical.
QuoteHere are two quick examples that illustrate my comment above. Two pieces I recently had commissioned. Both were diverse artists I had hired. One is an artist of Mesoamerican heritage, doing a piece inspired from their culture. The other is from an African American, but his dress is wholly European. I should have caught that and did better. (https://www.enworld.org/threads/running-list-of-potential-problematic-issues-in-tsr-era-dnd.678461/post-8208541)
(https://img1.wsimg.com/isteam/ip/17172688-83d1-43d0-9edc-0e0c156f5662/paladin%20in%20hell%20web.jpg)
(https://img1.wsimg.com/isteam/ip/17172688-83d1-43d0-9edc-0e0c156f5662/aztecbattleweb.jpg)
But what does he mean by doing better?
QuoteOn one hand, I get how it's to avoid potential cultural appropriation concerns or accidentally using a stereotype, but in this Internet age, it's not hard to find someone of that culture to do a review. (https://www.enworld.org/threads/running-list-of-potential-problematic-issues-in-tsr-era-dnd.678461/#post-8208533)
QuoteNothing is wrong with it per se. I was actually quite impressed by it. But if I were a little more aware at the time, I would have had it as an African warrior in traditional dress. To show more diversity not just with the ethnicity of the character, but in the culture as well. To the point above about how we tend to focus on European culture only, even when we're depicting other ethnicities. (https://www.enworld.org/threads/running-list-of-potential-problematic-issues-in-tsr-era-dnd.678461/post-8208650)
QuoteExactly. That's the point. There are many different African cultures, and NONE of them are being represented. We took a black man and put him in European style armor and dress. (https://www.enworld.org/threads/running-list-of-potential-problematic-issues-in-tsr-era-dnd.678461/post-8209028)
QuoteI think you're missing the point. Let me try to rephrase.
Yes, European culture has many cultures within it, as you list. Most of them have been represented in D&D artwork a ton. There are many individual cultures in Africa. Almost none of them were represented.
See the problem? It's not about lumping in several European cultures into one, or several African cultures into one. It's about depicting mostly only European culture and excluding all others. (https://www.enworld.org/threads/running-list-of-potential-problematic-issues-in-tsr-era-dnd.678461/post-8209121)
QuoteNot at all. It was simply an observation that when we include diverse ethnicities, we often portray them as being part of a european culture. Like putting a black man in plate armor. It's still european culture, and we're still not depicting african (any african) culture.
It would be like depicting native americans in our art, but only in western white attire and saying we're being diverse for including them. Needless to say, taking a diverse person of color and depicting them in eurocentric attire has about a million problematic issues going on from a historical standpoint. Like how we did that as a way to eradicate their culture. (https://www.enworld.org/threads/running-list-of-potential-problematic-issues-in-tsr-era-dnd.678461/post-8209293)
He seems pretty focused on culture, don't it?
and yet...
QuoteNo idea if he was originally from africa or of his parents were or whatever. All I know is he lives in Brazil. But who cares? It's not my place to tell someone who is black that they aren't REAL African cultures unless they currently grew up and live in africa. That's....pretty awful of a thing to think or imply. (https://www.enworld.org/threads/running-list-of-potential-problematic-issues-in-tsr-era-dnd.678461/post-8209862)
So culture be damned, let's ignore that completely and just treat Black people as interchangeable! Despite all his pontificating about culture he ultimately hired someone to illustrate African 'cultures' based entirely on the color of their skin. And in the end the illustration wasn't Black enough.
QuoteThey are Mesoamerican. Not white. In traditional dress and weapons. By a Mesoamerican artist. (https://www.enworld.org/threads/running-list-of-potential-problematic-issues-in-tsr-era-dnd.678461/post-8209036)
And not only isn't this 'traditional' women's dress, it's also cheesecake of exactly the kind he was condemning as problematic, and no less so just because a 'Mesoamerican' did it.
Quote from: Omega on February 26, 2021, 12:32:43 PM
Yeah thats Sac over there most likely. He used to post here and was near the exact opposite. Then at some point apparently drank the kool-aid, became a Sarkesian cultist and now everythings sexist everything racist everythings ad nausium. All I recall is him getting ever more stringent here.
Always sad to see someone's brains become Spaghettios in real time.
Quote from: Null42 on February 26, 2021, 11:26:58 PM
Interestingly, apparently the guy who started the thread, after specifically asking about how to make a more inclusive OSR game, mentioned when asked that he has been pushed out of RPG.net.
And despite all this they're
still not woke enough for #BigPurple.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on February 26, 2021, 09:22:40 PM
Are they complaining about demons and evil spirits being racist yet?
Then they haven't gotten as bad as RPGNet. (http://"https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/evil-species-problems-and-demons-or-other-evil-spirits.877853/")
Next they'll be telling us the #Wendigo is just misunderstood.
The #CtrlLeft sure does love adopting the 'misunderstood monster' archetype while completely forgetting that still makes them monsters, or maybe as a cover for it.
Quote from: Reckall on February 27, 2021, 08:56:58 AM
Let's not forget that we do live in times when asking "Are chess racists? In the game the White always moves first!" is considered a serious question.
https://www.rt.com/sport/493243-anatoly-karpov-chess-racism/
Well the #YouTube algo certainly isn't taking any chances (https://www.rt.com/op-ed/516229-youtube-chess-white-black-racist/).
Quote from: Omega on March 02, 2021, 02:22:46 PM
The problem with En World and all the other fora being taken over or co-opted by these nuts is that they rarely come in gunz-a-blazin. Instead they sneak in and poison the well a little at a time, turning people to their cult until they have enough leverage. A little demand here, a banning there, another more stringent demand, a few more bannings and so on.
The other problem is that several of the now increasingly worse fora allready had admin who were leaning that way to begin with. So the door was left open and the inevitable happens.
To be fair #ENWorld is holding out better than most. There was effective pushback and inquiry, and the thread was ultimately locked for not being D&D related, which is exactly how things should be handled.
Quote from: Anon Adderlan on March 04, 2021, 06:49:34 AM
(https://img1.wsimg.com/isteam/ip/17172688-83d1-43d0-9edc-0e0c156f5662/paladin%20in%20hell%20web.jpg)
(https://img1.wsimg.com/isteam/ip/17172688-83d1-43d0-9edc-0e0c156f5662/aztecbattleweb.jpg)
I like the flying cheesecake one! Good stuff. Not so keen on the other one (it seems to be a riff on 'A Paladin in Hell', but the demons are too messy). But Sacrosanct condemning his black Brazilian artist for depicting European (shudder) armour is both hilarious and deeply creepy/cringeworthy.
Quote from: Omega on March 02, 2021, 02:22:46 PM
I think the only reaason BGG has not surpassed all the rest in crazy is that they are the only one I know of that relies heavily on revenue from sponsors and especially members to line their pockets. And as they have tightened their grip, censored more, and become more and more openly woke, that revenue has dwindled to the point the last 3 years they have barely made their year end funding goals.
That and resistance from publishers and forum members which is substantially larger than any of the others.
BGG has not surpassed
yet, but it's going that way. People who "dared" to defended Tony and Frances (from Ant Lab Games) from the wokemob got banned. Not to mention all the ruckus regarding the "problematic" cover of Tiny Epic Dungeons:
https://techraptor.net/tabletop/news/tiny-epic-dungeons-under-fire-for-problematic-cover-art
(if the hag complaining about TED's artwork ever sees some old AD&D artwork by Caldwell she'd have a stroke!)
Quote from: Greywolf76 on March 04, 2021, 12:00:55 PM
BGG has not surpassed yet, but it's going that way. People who "dared" to defended Tony and Frances (from Ant Lab Games) from the wokemob got banned. Not to mention all the ruckus regarding the "problematic" cover of Tiny Epic Dungeons:
https://techraptor.net/tabletop/news/tiny-epic-dungeons-under-fire-for-problematic-cover-art
(if the hag complaining about TED's artwork ever sees some old AD&D artwork by Caldwell she'd have a stroke!)
I feel dumber for having read that link... and stand by my previous statement; for every bit of woke nonsense like that I read about I add another image of a sexy sorceress in tight leather to my game book.
Guys go for that cheese cake. It is a Karen and SJW repellent.
Quote from: Chris24601 on March 04, 2021, 12:20:54 PM
Quote from: Greywolf76 on March 04, 2021, 12:00:55 PM
BGG has not surpassed yet, but it's going that way. People who "dared" to defended Tony and Frances (from Ant Lab Games) from the wokemob got banned. Not to mention all the ruckus regarding the "problematic" cover of Tiny Epic Dungeons:
https://techraptor.net/tabletop/news/tiny-epic-dungeons-under-fire-for-problematic-cover-art
(if the hag complaining about TED's artwork ever sees some old AD&D artwork by Caldwell she'd have a stroke!)
I feel dumber for having read that link... and stand by my previous statement; for every bit of woke nonsense like that I read about I add another image of a sexy sorceress in tight leather to my game book.
Caldwell's cover for Dragon #147 was gorgeous and smoking hot and fight me if you don't like it :D
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 04, 2021, 02:06:09 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on March 04, 2021, 12:20:54 PM
Quote from: Greywolf76 on March 04, 2021, 12:00:55 PM
BGG has not surpassed yet, but it's going that way. People who "dared" to defended Tony and Frances (from Ant Lab Games) from the wokemob got banned. Not to mention all the ruckus regarding the "problematic" cover of Tiny Epic Dungeons:
https://techraptor.net/tabletop/news/tiny-epic-dungeons-under-fire-for-problematic-cover-art
(if the hag complaining about TED's artwork ever sees some old AD&D artwork by Caldwell she'd have a stroke!)
I feel dumber for having read that link... and stand by my previous statement; for every bit of woke nonsense like that I read about I add another image of a sexy sorceress in tight leather to my game book.
Caldwell's cover for Dragon #147 was gorgeous and smoking hot and fight me if you don't like it :D
Dragon #94 was a particular favorite. Not sure of the artist.
Quote from: Snowman0147 on March 04, 2021, 02:02:11 PM
Guys go for that cheese cake. It is a Karen and SJW repellent.
Yep. Just slap some Caldwell art on your gaming folder and any wokes will go Donald Sutherland in Body Snatchers.
Quote from: RandyB on March 04, 2021, 02:19:25 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 04, 2021, 02:06:09 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on March 04, 2021, 12:20:54 PM
Quote from: Greywolf76 on March 04, 2021, 12:00:55 PM
BGG has not surpassed yet, but it's going that way. People who "dared" to defended Tony and Frances (from Ant Lab Games) from the wokemob got banned. Not to mention all the ruckus regarding the "problematic" cover of Tiny Epic Dungeons:
https://techraptor.net/tabletop/news/tiny-epic-dungeons-under-fire-for-problematic-cover-art
(if the hag complaining about TED's artwork ever sees some old AD&D artwork by Caldwell she'd have a stroke!)
I feel dumber for having read that link... and stand by my previous statement; for every bit of woke nonsense like that I read about I add another image of a sexy sorceress in tight leather to my game book.
Caldwell's cover for Dragon #147 was gorgeous and smoking hot and fight me if you don't like it :D
Dragon #94 was a particular favorite. Not sure of the artist.
That's a Caldwell too :)
QuoteThe first Clyde Caldwell painting we've published in more than a year is this striking portrait of a female ranger. The model was Jeanne Stanley of WinstonSalem, N.C., who met Clyde when both of them were attending the 1984 GENCON® Game Convention.
Ah, back when Gencon wasn't run by woketards, and ladies didn't mind modeling for artists.
QuoteI feel dumber for having read that link... and stand by my previous statement; for every bit of woke nonsense like that I read about I add another image of a sexy sorceress in tight leather to my game book.
Slaanesh likes it :3
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 04, 2021, 02:38:15 PM
Quote from: RandyB on March 04, 2021, 02:19:25 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 04, 2021, 02:06:09 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on March 04, 2021, 12:20:54 PM
Quote from: Greywolf76 on March 04, 2021, 12:00:55 PM
BGG has not surpassed yet, but it's going that way. People who "dared" to defended Tony and Frances (from Ant Lab Games) from the wokemob got banned. Not to mention all the ruckus regarding the "problematic" cover of Tiny Epic Dungeons:
https://techraptor.net/tabletop/news/tiny-epic-dungeons-under-fire-for-problematic-cover-art
(if the hag complaining about TED's artwork ever sees some old AD&D artwork by Caldwell she'd have a stroke!)
I feel dumber for having read that link... and stand by my previous statement; for every bit of woke nonsense like that I read about I add another image of a sexy sorceress in tight leather to my game book.
Caldwell's cover for Dragon #147 was gorgeous and smoking hot and fight me if you don't like it :D
Dragon #94 was a particular favorite. Not sure of the artist.
That's a Caldwell too :)
QuoteThe first Clyde Caldwell painting we've published in more than a year is this striking portrait of a female ranger. The model was Jeanne Stanley of WinstonSalem, N.C., who met Clyde when both of them were attending the 1984 GENCON® Game Convention.
Ah, back when Gencon wasn't run by woketards, and ladies didn't mind modeling for artists.
It looked like his style, but I wasn't sure enough to make the claim.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 03, 2021, 10:39:03 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 03, 2021, 09:29:12 AM
Well, I did warn him.
Is it a perma, or just a time out and threadban?
I'm not going to argue either way. I'm just curious.
(I would suggest we need an Infractions forum, but honestly, who wants to emulate TBP?)
Bans here are always permanent.
This thread deserves a special award, since it made me look up Mandy Muse, Dragon 147, and Jeremiad.
I never really visited EnWorld much, but I stopped entirely when the mods posted that criticizing SJW or wokeness was a bannable offense. It used to be in a sticky at the top of the forum, but I don't see it there now.
I never knew the Harlot Table existed before the EnWorld thread. Slovenly Trull is one of the funniest things I have ever read. It's even funnier because as far as I can tell there's no such slang term as trull, (but there probably should be).
My Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay Group has just reached Marienburg and if anyone doesn't think they are going to meet a slovenly trull in the next session, well they just haven't been paying attention.
I am actually factually, literally, crying with laughter over the harlot table. The follow up with saucy tart...it's so ridiculous.
Quote from: Visitor Q on March 04, 2021, 09:21:47 PM
I never knew the Harlot Table existed before rhe EnWorld thread. Slovenly Trull is one of the funniest things I have ever read. It's even funnier because as far as I can tell there's no such slang term as trull, (but there probably should be).
From Wiktionary: (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/trull)
1749, Henry Fielding, Tom Jones, Folio Society 1973, p. 365:
'Hark'ee, child,' says she, 'is not that very young gentleman now in bed with some nasty trull or other?'
1888, Rudyard Kipling, 'Dray Wara Yow Dee', Black and White, Folio Society 2004, vol. 1, p. 369:
South of Delhi, Sahib, you know the saying—'Rats are the men and trulls the women.'
Gygax had a fascination with archaic words, from croodle to dweomercraft to flatchet to trull.
:D Check the way the OP of that thread phrases a post a little further down the page:
QuoteHere are two quick examples that illustrate my comment above. Two pieces I recently had commissioned. Both were diverse artists I had hired. One is an artist of Mesoamerican heritage, doing a piece inspired from their culture. The other is from an African American, but his dress is wholly European. I should have caught that and did better.
In other words these INDIVIDUAL artists are DIVERSE because they are not white. And the African American's art didn't hold up because it still looked too white.
This is comedy & cringe ;D (did I just come up with a new RPG name there?)
Quote from: Pat on March 04, 2021, 10:27:29 PM
Quote from: Visitor Q on March 04, 2021, 09:21:47 PM
I never knew the Harlot Table existed before rhe EnWorld thread. Slovenly Trull is one of the funniest things I have ever read. It's even funnier because as far as I can tell there's no such slang term as trull, (but there probably should be).
From Wiktionary: (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/trull)
1749, Henry Fielding, Tom Jones, Folio Society 1973, p. 365:
'Hark'ee, child,' says she, 'is not that very young gentleman now in bed with some nasty trull or other?'
1888, Rudyard Kipling, 'Dray Wara Yow Dee', Black and White, Folio Society 2004, vol. 1, p. 369:
South of Delhi, Sahib, you know the saying—'Rats are the men and trulls the women.'
Gygax had a fascination with archaic words, from croodle to dweomercraft to flatchet to trull.
Thanks for these references. Every day is a school day. That's fantastic.
I don't know why but that has properly tickled me. I'm still laughing today. I probably need to get out more, but you know lockdown and everything.
I did know Gygax was into his archaic words so I probably should have spent a bit longer searching. I remember a pretty crazy table of all kinds of different obscure polearm variations.
The EnWorld thread is quite daft. The premise alone is pretty much ripped from the pages of 1984. This kind of thing used to wind me up but tbh these days I work under the assumption that very few of these people actually regularly play so their opinions are more or less irrelevant.
The sad and perhaps ironic thing is if the SJW would never have mentioned the HArlot table, no one for the most part would have remembered it. Given how many charts were in the 1E DMG I sure as he'll did not remember it. Imo most gamers as well. So if anything they may have just made other gamers want to buy the book or renew interest in 1E.
That ENworld thread and as a whole the site is a clusterfuck full of self righteous SJWs who if your straight white gamer have no say in anything or everything related to gaming. No loss for myself if l no longer visit that forum. It is interesting to re SJW hypocrisy in action. The artist has to be POC and anything he draws is approved unless he draws only a very certain specific approved way.
I bet Sacrosanct must be absolutely livid about all the D&D-influenced anime that are appropriating Hollywood depictions of pseudo-medieval pseudo-European pseudo-culture.
Is the art of the two "Mesoamerican"* adventurers even accurate to any real culture? If you're going to prize being authentic, then it would probably help to be actually authentic.
* Mesoamerica is not a culture. It is a region that has been home to numerous cultures. Aztecs, Mayans, Toltecs, Olmecs, etc. These cultures are not interchangeable and acting if they are is... racist? Is racist the right term here? What do you call someone being ignorant of the difference between, say, Germans and Indians but unwilling to learn the difference while at the same time advocating for the rights of Indo-European peoples?
I expect this from creators who wanted some exotic flavor and weren't trying to depict any real culture, much less in a remotely accurate fashion. But from activists who claim to care about other cultures? It's obnoxious hypocrisy.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 04, 2021, 02:25:41 PM
Quote from: Snowman0147 on March 04, 2021, 02:02:11 PM
Guys go for that cheese cake. It is a Karen and SJW repellent.
Yep. Just slap some Caldwell art on your gaming folder and any wokes will go Donald Sutherland in Body Snatchers.
That's some funny shtuff right there. I laughed out loud cause that was so vivid in my mind.
Quote from: Trond on March 04, 2021, 11:07:09 PM
:D Check the way the OP of that thread phrases a post a little further down the page:
QuoteHere are two quick examples that illustrate my comment above. Two pieces I recently had commissioned. Both were diverse artists I had hired. One is an artist of Mesoamerican heritage, doing a piece inspired from their culture. The other is from an African American, but his dress is wholly European. I should have caught that and did better.
In other words these INDIVIDUAL artists are DIVERSE because they are not white. And the African American's art didn't hold up because it still looked too white.
This is comedy & cringe ;D (did I just come up with a new RPG name there?)
You sir, put it better than I could. Cause that's what I was thinking as well.
Quote from: Visitor Q on March 04, 2021, 09:21:47 PM
I never knew the Harlot Table existed before the EnWorld thread. Slovenly Trull is one of the funniest things I have ever read. It's even funnier because as far as I can tell there's no such slang term as trull, (but there probably should be).
My Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay Group has just reached Marienburg and if anyone doesn't think they are going to meet a slovenly trull in the next session, well they just haven't been paying attention.
I am actually factually, literally, crying with laughter over the harlot table. The follow up with saucy tart...it's so ridiculous.
Probably a subject for its own thread but since this one isnt going anywhere anyhow...
Those are all real terms used in the past and some even fairly recently.
Trull = prositutute.
Strumpet = woman who is very sexually active.
Trollop = woman who is very sexually active.
Tart = woman who is very sexually active.
Wench = attractive girl
Doxy = a mistress.
Procuress = essentially a female procurer. In this case could mean brothel owner?
Several of these have over time also been used mean a prostitute. Even wench and tart and strumpet.
Bemusingly my grandmother would call some women floozies.
Quote from: Omega on March 05, 2021, 04:09:45 PM
Bemusingly my grandmother would call some women floozies.
I use floozy! ;D Albeit mostly ironically, and mostly in-game. But it's only slightly archaic in British English I'd say.
Actually Google seems to think floozies are on the up-and-up: https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?year_start=1800&year_end=2019&corpus=26&smoothing=7&case_insensitive=on&content=floozy&direct_url=t4%3B%2Cfloozy%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3Bfloozy%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BFloozy%3B%2Cc0