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Pen & Paper Roleplaying Central => Pen and Paper Roleplaying Games (RPGs) Discussion => Topic started by: Monero on August 03, 2022, 05:34:36 PM

Title: I'm reading some older D&D pdfs, specifically Ravenloft, and I'm a bit confused.
Post by: Monero on August 03, 2022, 05:34:36 PM
I'm confused because I haven't read a single paragraph, word, or sentence where "Inclusivity" is mentioned. I have not been told a single time to create a "safe" roleplaying environment. No mention of X cards that can be used to force the game to a halt. Zero trigger warnings, which was strange given that Ravenloft is all about horror so I figured there would be something about setting "boundaries".

I can't find anything that tells me that trans characters can be made. Or that characters can be gay. How did players know they could do that back in the day without being told so?

How did D&D survive, grow, and thrive without all of the above? Personally I don't remember any of groups ever forbidding members from certain demographics from playing with us. But I can't see how that's possible since there was no guidance about Inclusivity.

My wife, whom I met by playing D&D, was never "raped" in game or "sexually assaulted", but without a passage in the books demanding that "consent" be a point of emphasis, I'm just unsure how me and my fellow players weren't just raging psychopaths in and out of the game.

How can any of this be? And of course without all the retconning to modern races keeping me safe, every time I read about Orcs or Drow the first thing I thought about was black people. Surely I'm not the only one? Luckily I'm protected from racism nowadays with "modern" race design.

I'm just left confused. Can anyone help?
Title: Re: I'm reading some older D&D pdfs, specifically Ravenloft, and I'm a bit confused.
Post by: rytrasmi on August 03, 2022, 05:51:59 PM
Clearly you are deranged! I recommend reeducation. The camps are very nice this time of year, as you will notice during your mandatory 30-minute allotment of outdoor calisthenics. Please also surrender this contraband and likely fake copy of "Ravenloft."
Title: Re: I'm reading some older D&D pdfs, specifically Ravenloft, and I'm a bit confused.
Post by: Jaeger on August 03, 2022, 06:08:49 PM
...
I'm just left confused. Can anyone help?

STOP asking questions. STOP reading Anti-Inclusive Propaganda.

You might cause someone actual physical harm by doing so.

Follow Rytrasmi's wise counsel and report yourself to the nearest reeducation camp ASAP.

And always remember:

(https://i.pinimg.com/236x/ea/a2/1c/eaa21c7289dae3c88d117f47d485ccc7--george-orwell-precious-metals.jpg)
Title: Re: I'm reading some older D&D pdfs, specifically Ravenloft, and I'm a bit confused.
Post by: Greg Bruni on August 03, 2022, 06:20:48 PM
I love the original Ravenloft setting.  I have always wanted to run it using the Solomon Kane game.
Title: Re: I'm reading some older D&D pdfs, specifically Ravenloft, and I'm a bit confused.
Post by: Monero on August 03, 2022, 06:33:34 PM
Jest aside, how are the 5E Ravenloft books? Curse of Strahd and VR guide? Is it good stuff or suit ignore?

And would any other system be better for Ravenloft?
Title: Re: I'm reading some older D&D pdfs, specifically Ravenloft, and I'm a bit confused.
Post by: FingerRod on August 03, 2022, 07:12:29 PM
I have the original 5e Ravenloft—before they rewrote/edited their own work. My wife originally ran the family through it. I looked at it later and I cannot recall any woke garbage in it. No idea of about the revised version.

The Guide to Ravnica looked like a mess so I avoided it. I did a flip through a couple months later and it confirmed my decision.

Honestly, I’d just use the original setting.

If I were to ever purchase “real” D&D products, I’ll likely buy them from this cat:

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_dmd=2&_dkr=1&iconV2Request=true&_ssn=discodadda&store_cat=1769389015&store_name=discosdungeon&_oac=1&_pgn=2

Title: Re: I'm reading some older D&D pdfs, specifically Ravenloft, and I'm a bit confused.
Post by: Omega on August 03, 2022, 07:13:06 PM
Jest aside, how are the 5E Ravenloft books? Curse of Strahd and VR guide? Is it good stuff or suit ignore?

And would any other system be better for Ravenloft?

I have Curse of Strahd. It is ok but right off the bat it starts going on about how vampires are "sexual predators". Its got some totally meaningless LGBT insertions. That being that they are so minor as to pretty much not exist in one case and barely a sentence in another. Its implied Strahd is now Bi. You know. The Strahd who is in this whole mess because of his intense infatuation with his brothers girl? Yeah that Strahd.

They also for god fuck no reason other than to piss on the character have Mordenkainen. Yes THAT Mordenkainen as a shell shocked crazy who tried to challenge Strahd and lost. Fuck me just typing that makes brain cells die.

Theres no demiplane of dread and pretty much no dark powers really. Theres some nods to. But its so pathetic its barely worth noting.

Theres probably more but  its not worth caring about.

That said. Ignoring the stupid the campaign isnt bad and could have been quite interesting as a new domain. The idea that a large chunk of Barovia's population are essentially soulless shells born of Strahd's need for subjects would have so much better worked for some new lord and their domain.

Nu-Ravenloft is pretty much worthless.
I lost track of how many domains were completely fucked with for fuck all no reason than to fuck with them.
The "make of it what you will" alignment idea is actually good and harkens back to O, BX and AD&Ds handling of monster alignments. But WOTC treats it as if they invented the idea and anything prior was wacist because they say so. Fuck me just typing that makes brain cells die.

Good ideas drowning in stupid.
Title: Re: I'm reading some older D&D pdfs, specifically Ravenloft, and I'm a bit confused.
Post by: Svenhelgrim on August 03, 2022, 07:58:19 PM
Jest aside, how are the 5E Ravenloft books? Curse of Strahd and VR guide? Is it good stuff or suit ignore?

And would any other system be better for Ravenloft?

I have the Curse Of Strahd module.  I liked it a lot.  The adventure draws on previous ravenloft matereal, and doesn’t pull any punches.  The players play at a significant disadvantage up until about level 6 or so.  The traps are deadly.  There are a couple of encounters that could TPK a party of any level.  Apparently it was so offensive that Hazards-of-the-bro had to pull the module and change some things.  Vistani could no longer be called “gypsies”, they weren’t all servants of Strahd (not that they were in the origional works). There was some other stuff they did to bring it in line with Nu-DnD.  I didn’t really pay much attention.

There were however some issues:

Strahd is weak.  By the time the players meet him for the final confrontation (recommended level 9) he is outclassed.  There are numerous versions of Strahd that have been beefed-up to give a level 9 party a challenge.

The adventure recommends “Milestone Levelling” which means the players all gain a level when they reach a certain point in the “story”.  The issue I have is that no two player parties will play the same way, so you have to change the “story” based on their actions.  A DM would be better off just giving out xp, and letting the dice fall where they may, and if the party dies, then so be it.  …Which is totally doable in the module.

In my opinion it is the best 5e adventure that Hazards has ever published. 

Title: Re: I'm reading some older D&D pdfs, specifically Ravenloft, and I'm a bit confused.
Post by: 3catcircus on August 03, 2022, 10:26:26 PM
Jest aside, how are the 5E Ravenloft books? Curse of Strahd and VR guide? Is it good stuff or suit ignore?

And would any other system be better for Ravenloft?

I have Curse of Strahd. It is ok but right off the bat it starts going on about how vampires are "sexual predators". Its got some totally meaningless LGBT insertions. That being that they are so minor as to pretty much not exist in one case and barely a sentence in another. Its implied Strahd is now Bi. You know. The Strahd who is in this whole mess because of his intense infatuation with his brothers girl? Yeah that Strahd.

They also for god fuck no reason other than to piss on the character have Mordenkainen. Yes THAT Mordenkainen as a shell shocked crazy who tried to challenge Strahd and lost. Fuck me just typing that makes brain cells die.

Theres no demiplane of dread and pretty much no dark powers really. Theres some nods to. But its so pathetic its barely worth noting.

Theres probably more but  its not worth caring about.

That said. Ignoring the stupid the campaign isnt bad and could have been quite interesting as a new domain. The idea that a large chunk of Barovia's population are essentially soulless shells born of Strahd's need for subjects would have so much better worked for some new lord and their domain.

Nu-Ravenloft is pretty much worthless.
I lost track of how many domains were completely fucked with for fuck all no reason than to fuck with them.
The "make of it what you will" alignment idea is actually good and harkens back to O, BX and AD&Ds handling of monster alignments. But WOTC treats it as if they invented the idea and anything prior was wacist because they say so. Fuck me just typing that makes brain cells die.

Good ideas drowning in stupid.

You could have just used two words to do this: "It's dogshit."
Title: Re: I'm reading some older D&D pdfs, specifically Ravenloft, and I'm a bit confused.
Post by: Mithgarthr on August 04, 2022, 07:46:31 AM
I have the original 5e Ravenloft—before they rewrote/edited their own work. My wife originally ran the family through it. I looked at it later and I cannot recall any woke garbage in it. No idea of about the revised version.

The Guide to Ravnica looked like a mess so I avoided it. I did a flip through a couple months later and it confirmed my decision.

Honestly, I’d just use the original setting.

If I were to ever purchase “real” D&D products, I’ll likely buy them from this cat:

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_dmd=2&_dkr=1&iconV2Request=true&_ssn=discodadda&store_cat=1769389015&store_name=discosdungeon&_oac=1&_pgn=2

Quite a few of their listings are DriveThru reprints but for like twice the cost as just buying from DriveThru.
Title: Re: I'm reading some older D&D pdfs, specifically Ravenloft, and I'm a bit confused.
Post by: Ruprecht on August 04, 2022, 11:30:45 AM
Clearly you are deranged! I recommend reeducation. The camps are very nice this time of year, as you will notice during your mandatory 30-minute allotment of outdoor calisthenics. Please also surrender this contraband and likely fake copy of "Ravenloft."
You had only 30-minutes of outdoor calisthenics? I had 12 hours of cheerful hard labor.
Title: Re: I'm reading some older D&D pdfs, specifically Ravenloft, and I'm a bit confused.
Post by: Skullking on August 04, 2022, 11:49:17 AM
They also for god fuck no reason other than to piss on the character have Mordenkainen. Yes THAT Mordenkainen as a shell shocked crazy who tried to challenge Strahd and lost. Fuck me just typing that makes brain cells die.

This is what pissed me off the most. Well until I saw that Iggwilv was now a chaotic neutral fey in Wild Beyond the Witchlight which is an even greater travesty.
Title: Re: I'm reading some older D&D pdfs, specifically Ravenloft, and I'm a bit confused.
Post by: Jam The MF on August 04, 2022, 02:40:59 PM
It's all a big trap!!!  In those old games and adventures, the oppression just drips from every single page.  Run while you still can!!!
Title: Re: I'm reading some older D&D pdfs, specifically Ravenloft, and I'm a bit confused.
Post by: HappyDaze on August 04, 2022, 03:22:13 PM
I remember when 2300AD was openly about colonialism in space. Now it's about "Mankind's discovers the stars" as if they just mysteriously appeared.
Title: Re: I'm reading some older D&D pdfs, specifically Ravenloft, and I'm a bit confused.
Post by: King Tyranno on August 04, 2022, 04:54:10 PM
In the original Ravenloft book they referred to gypsies as gypsies and I AM SHITTING AND PISSING MYSELF OVER THIS! X CARD! X CARD! THIS IS NOT OKAY!

I love Ravenloft though. It's my favorite setting. You can really use it to spring some horror and gothic ambience on your party when you need to spice up the game.
Title: Re: I'm reading some older D&D pdfs, specifically Ravenloft, and I'm a bit confused.
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on August 05, 2022, 10:05:17 AM
In the original Ravenloft book they referred to gypsies as gypsies and I AM SHITTING AND PISSING MYSELF OVER THIS! X CARD! X CARD! THIS IS NOT OKAY!

I love Ravenloft though. It's my favorite setting. You can really use it to spring some horror and gothic ambience on your party when you need to spice up the game.
The g-word is a slur, just like the n-word. It's just taking longer for non-Rom people to learn that. The older Ravenloft books were written in less enlightened times, but nowadays we should be more sensitive. And by "sensitive," I mean do a lazy find-and-replace with "bohemian" instead... like how modern reprints and audiobooks of "The Rats in the Walls" rename Delapore's cat to "Blackman", "Blackie", or "Black Tom."
Title: Re: I'm reading some older D&D pdfs, specifically Ravenloft, and I'm a bit confused.
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 05, 2022, 12:21:01 PM
In the original Ravenloft book they referred to gypsies as gypsies and I AM SHITTING AND PISSING MYSELF OVER THIS! X CARD! X CARD! THIS IS NOT OKAY!

I love Ravenloft though. It's my favorite setting. You can really use it to spring some horror and gothic ambience on your party when you need to spice up the game.
The g-word is a slur, just like the n-word. It's just taking longer for non-Rom people to learn that. The older Ravenloft books were written in less enlightened times, but nowadays we should be more sensitive. And by "sensitive," I mean do a lazy find-and-replace with "bohemian" instead... like how modern reprints and audiobooks of "The Rats in the Walls" rename Delapore's cat to "Blackman", "Blackie", or "Black Tom."
Not sure if serious...  ???
Title: Re: I'm reading some older D&D pdfs, specifically Ravenloft, and I'm a bit confused.
Post by: VisionStorm on August 05, 2022, 01:51:46 PM
In the original Ravenloft book they referred to gypsies as gypsies and I AM SHITTING AND PISSING MYSELF OVER THIS! X CARD! X CARD! THIS IS NOT OKAY!

I love Ravenloft though. It's my favorite setting. You can really use it to spring some horror and gothic ambience on your party when you need to spice up the game.
The g-word is a slur, just like the n-word. It's just taking longer for non-Rom people to learn that. The older Ravenloft books were written in less enlightened times, but nowadays we should be more sensitive. And by "sensitive," I mean do a lazy find-and-replace with "bohemian" instead... like how modern reprints and audiobooks of "The Rats in the Walls" rename Delapore's cat to "Blackman", "Blackie", or "Black Tom."

There is no consensus about how much of a slur "gypsy" is, even among the Rom, many of whom call themselves "gypsies" regardless. And the term "bohemian" is not much better, nor more accurate. No "slur" is quite like the n-word in terms of being an obvious slur (other than perhaps the k-word for Jews). That's why we call it the n-word.
Title: Re: I'm reading some older D&D pdfs, specifically Ravenloft, and I'm a bit confused.
Post by: Monero on August 06, 2022, 09:01:53 AM
How well would the two OSE books handle Ravenloft?
Title: Re: I'm reading some older D&D pdfs, specifically Ravenloft, and I'm a bit confused.
Post by: Svenhelgrim on August 06, 2022, 09:16:16 AM
How well would the two OSE books handle Ravenloft?
There would probably be a lot more player character deaths. 

On the bright side, conversion to OSE would be very easy since most of the monsters that appear have already been statted out in AD&D, or B/X.  There are a couple of monsters that you would have to convert, but that isn’t too hard. 

As for Strahd, just use the standard Vampire stats with maximum hit points, and tack on the abilities of a 10th level Magic User and you are good to go.

Or you can use the stats from I-6: Ravenloft.
Title: Re: I'm reading some older D&D pdfs, specifically Ravenloft, and I'm a bit confused.
Post by: SHARK on August 06, 2022, 03:14:16 PM
Greetings!

I always liked the original Ravenloft line of books and supplements. They are great on providing adventures, interesting NPC's, and all kinds of adventure seeds and advice for running Gothic-themed campaigns. Just stick with the original stuff from the 1990's.

The new products are mostly garbage. The first book a few years back, dealing with Strahd seems cool. Anything more recent though is nonsense.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: I'm reading some older D&D pdfs, specifically Ravenloft, and I'm a bit confused.
Post by: King Tyranno on August 08, 2022, 02:11:13 PM
In the original Ravenloft book they referred to gypsies as gypsies and I AM SHITTING AND PISSING MYSELF OVER THIS! X CARD! X CARD! THIS IS NOT OKAY!

I love Ravenloft though. It's my favorite setting. You can really use it to spring some horror and gothic ambience on your party when you need to spice up the game.
The g-word is a slur, just like the n-word. It's just taking longer for non-Rom people to learn that. The older Ravenloft books were written in less enlightened times, but nowadays we should be more sensitive. And by "sensitive," I mean do a lazy find-and-replace with "bohemian" instead... like how modern reprints and audiobooks of "The Rats in the Walls" rename Delapore's cat to "Blackman", "Blackie", or "Black Tom."

I don't care about the feelings of Gypsys though. They're big lads. They don't care about DnD to begin with.
Title: Re: I'm reading some older D&D pdfs, specifically Ravenloft, and I'm a bit confused.
Post by: Omega on August 09, 2022, 01:05:49 AM
The g-word is a slur, just like the n-word. It's just taking longer for non-Rom people to learn that. The older Ravenloft books were written in less enlightened times, but nowadays we should be more sensitive. And by "sensitive," I mean do a lazy find-and-replace with "bohemian" instead... like how modern reprints and audiobooks of "The Rats in the Walls" rename Delapore's cat to "Blackman", "Blackie", or "Black Tom."

News flash timmy.

My relatives were straight from the old country and Gypsy was used to refer to the crooks because they hated the bad rep they gave everyone else. In my home town they would come through every few years and hop homes running various grifter plays to case out homes to rob. They used to hang out in back of Kats home and she had an agreement with them to leave her alone. They were dangerous to say the least.

Every time I've heard the word Gypsy used its been deserved. There must be normal ones out there who arent scum and worse. But fucking hell we kept getting the worst of the lot.

As for its use in ravenloft. Boo hoo hoo. The module depicts them in a mostly positive light despite the fuck-up evil entry at the back.