The original Ghostbusters RPG was (and is) a cool, fun, rather simple game. The second edition, released after the second film, larded it down with unnecessary rules, and leached much of the fun out of the game. It was as if they wanted to remove most of the material that came directly from the movies (pictures, characters) and make it a generic game. I still think the original is cool, but I was, and am, very disappointed they screwed up the later version.

Star Wars d20 second edition wrecked Star Wars d20 1 for me and my group. We had just started playing a good series of games wen second edition was announced. We all read about some of the changes, and decided to wai for it to come out before we continued.

SO when SW D20 2nd edition did come out, and cost $40, I wasn't willing to pony up. I always told the group if they wanted to play it, I'd run it if they footed some of the bill. They never did...oh well

This only happens when the supplement drastically changes the setting of a game which I enjoyed. This "ruins the game" because it means that further supplements for the game's setting are near-useless.

One example is the second edition of Dark Sun, which got rid of many of the most interesting elements of the Dark Sun setting. I read a few of the supplements after the change, but never bought another book from the line after the 2e boxed set.

Quote from: ConanMKI must admit that I don't understand this mentality at all, at least not coming from a GM. If you enjoy the core rules, and you dislike a rules supplement so much that it "ruins" the game, then simply don't use it.

Well, the thing is that no game exists in a vacuum. Okay, that's not quite true; let me rephrase. Many gaming situations depend upon the expectations of multiple, different players and play groups. Better?

Point being that once a supplement comes out that is problematic for you, but just peachy keen for your players, it starts to feel like swimming upstream excluding a certain very telling rules supplement.

In a way, this is why I was a big advocate of the third party d20 movement. It was the first time I could think of in which supplements were literally take it or leave it. The less "official" nature of the supplements made them feel more optional, and made it easier for me to make a decision on inclusion of supplemental material based on need and contribution instead of the mere presence of a book.

I like Rolemaster, especially 2nd edition, but I hate the Companions. If you search in a dictionary for a definition of Power Creep, you'll see a photo of the RM Companions. They were the wet dream of power gamers and munchkins.

Don't misunderstand me, if power gamers have fun playing their way, that's fine by me. The problem is when you include in sourcebooks character classes or options in general that are much better than the ones in the corebook. That makes the character classes of the corebook completely obsolete.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineThis only happens when the supplement drastically changes the setting of a game which I enjoyed. This "ruins the game" because it means that further supplements for the game's setting are near-useless.

Yeah, I agree with this.  Another example is Heavy Gear, after the destruction of Peace River.  It became a totally different setting with a totally different premise, and if you didn't like the change you were SOL as far as future supplements were concerned.

KoOS

Mechwarroir third edition.

Why?
Why?
Why?

Quote from: King of Old SchoolYeah, I agree with this.  Another example is Heavy Gear, after the destruction of Peace River.  It became a totally different setting with a totally different premise, and if you didn't like the change you were SOL as far as future supplements were concerned.

Agreed.

As soon as Earth got involved, that game jumped the shark.  Heavy Gear works around the North-South conflict, and introducing Earth back into the mix as an active antagonist is just the sort of defining moment that justifies ending a line.

Quote from: Bradford C. WalkerAs soon as Earth got involved, that game jumped the shark.  Heavy Gear works around the North-South conflict, and introducing Earth back into the mix as an active antagonist is just the sort of defining moment that justifies ending a line.

You know, I wouldn't have minded learning that Earth was acting behind the scenes, manipulating the polar superpowers into war.  That would have made a lot of sense from the perspective of the ongoing story, without fundamentally shifting the game.  But yeah, the total change from North vs South to "lets put together a team of badass commandos and hop from planet to planet fighting Earth" was just ass.

Oh well, the game's dead now as an RPG anyhow.

KoOS

Quote from: Bradford C. WalkerAgreed.

As soon as Earth got involved, that game jumped the shark.  Heavy Gear works around the North-South conflict, and introducing Earth back into the mix as an active antagonist is just the sort of defining moment that justifies ending a line.

Yep, my mob still games in HG but always set before the blowing up of Peace River and the Black Talon uber-commando teams.

It seems to me there are a few ways this can be true.

1.  A later supplement sucks, but all supplements thereafter are predicated on that supplement's contents and as such all later releases of the game are useless.  That doesn't of course prevent you still using the game, unless as happened a fair bit in the 1990s the game was designed so that later supplements would actually be necessary for play.

2.  A later supplement sucks, but for group reasons some or all of your players expect it to be in play or try to make use of it.  You can as GM say no, but the outcome might be frustrated players and an unfun game.

3.  A later supplement sucks, and sucks so mightily that it retroactively sucks the cool out of the setting.  Unlikely as this sounds, I think it does happen, because when you think of the setting you remember the utterly sucky "official" explanation for some in-game mystery and that is so sucky that it just kind of sours the fun of the setting.  Seventh Sea is the obvious example here, once you know the PC magi are actually undermining the fabric of the universe and letting Lovecraftian aliens conquer spacetime that is just so profoundly sucky that there is a risk you'll recall it each time you think of the setting and so it will leach the fun away.  Irrational?  Quite possibly, but cool is not a rational thing.  Before, the setting got your creative juices going, now it doesn't.  And in that sense, a later supplement really can retroactively make a setting unfun.

Oooh, and I just remebered:

Although it didn't kill my game, but it did stop me from buying any more supplements was that Vampire: the Masquerade supplement where Mages turned the werewolf/ghoul/mage into an ashtray, nuked 1 entire clan, revealed the Tzimitze were space aliens, and ended the Wraith gameline and joined the traditions to the technocracy.


All in one night! I think it was called Night f Chaos or something...

Quote from: KrakaJakOooh, and I just remebered:

Although it didn't kill my game, but it did stop me from buying any more supplements was that Vampire: the Masquerade supplement where Mages turned the werewolf/ghoul/mage into an ashtray, nuked 1 entire clan, revealed the Tzimitze were space aliens, and ended the Wraith gameline and joined the traditions to the technocracy.


All in one night! I think it was called Night f Chaos or something...

There are several oWoD which are horrible, like Chaos Factor, and Under a Blood Red Moon, which I had the (dis)honor to play. :hang:

Quote from: gale_wolfYep, my mob still games in HG but always set before the blowing up of Peace River and the Black Talon uber-commando teams.

I have similar feelings about Tribe 8, in that it was great before Capal.

DSA got sucky with the "Mit Mantel, Schwert und Zauberstab" (translated to be something like: "Player´s Options: Cloak, Sword & Staff") Boxed set. Even the art let´s you think it´s all about swashing the buckle as a player:



There´s a Player´s book in it with oodles of crunch, weapons, spells, skills and general optimizational material, and there is a DM´s book in it, which gives advice how to rule in pesky players, and how the rules are unimportant, how mood and DM descriptions are not to be interrupted by mechanical stuff. Especially are the intentions of the players to add the new shiney stuff to your characters mentioned as "bad roleplaying".

It´s amazing the two books could even sit alongside each other in the same box without  an anti-matter/matter extinction explosion...

A trainwreck which fucked up the entire german gaming scene up to this day.