In part inspired by the latest to do over Mearl's latest L&L, I realized that while I have nothing in particular for or against spell healing (i for one don't mind rah-rah Warlord 4E healing, as the Hit Point has been in all editions of D&D nebulous, as opposed to hit points per location in games like RuneQuest), I find that I think Clerics stink.  I don't like em, they're not particularly S&S to me, and they conflate and confuse their class role with Paladins, whom I like. I like the variants of RQ and other BRP games, because PCs have to pull their own weight with healing, by way of potions, personal spells, first aid skills and so on.

So, fellow Grogs, tell me - what OSR games and retroclones do away with Clerics? Clerics tread on the space with both fighters and wizard types, and don't appear in any pre-D&D sources that I know of.  Warrior priests are better represented by Paladins.  Clerics have always represented a weird religious fighter-magic user to me, as opposed to robed priests with perhaps weird magic powers.

To my knowledge, only Crypts and Things folds the spell healer role into the Wizard, and one can eliminate the Cleric in ACKS by making use of other Campaign classes for healing.

So, share, please!

Not OSR, but actually OS, Tunnels and Trolls. It has three classes: Warrior, Rogue, Wizard. plus technically the Warrior Wizard, but that's more "I'm better at everything" evolution of the Rogue--who yes gets magic in T&T, like some S&S stories of dabblers.

Quote from: Silverlion;630541Not OSR, but actually OS, Tunnels and Trolls. It has three classes: Warrior, Rogue, Wizard. plus technically the Warrior Wizard, but that's more "I'm better at everything" evolution of the Rogue--who yes gets magic in T&T, like some S&S stories of dabblers.

It's been decades since I played T&T. How is healing handled in T&T?

Quote from: Kaiu Keiichi;630542It's been decades since I played T&T. How is healing handled in T&T?

Healing is for pussies. Hit your enemies fast and hard so they cannot hit back. Those less skilled who do get hit can suck it up with bedrest as gawd intended.

Thats the sword & sorcery way.

Dragon Age.

Ok, its not dnd but close.

Much like Tunnels and Trolls it has fighter, rogue, and wizard.

No clerics; wizards may select a healing spell.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;630544Healing is for pussies. Hit your enemies fast and hard so they cannot hit back. Those less skilled who do get hit can suck it up with bedrest as gawd intended.

Thats the sword & sorcery way.

I can respect that brutally honest statement.  RuneQuest had this vibe, and is a game series truer to S&S than D&D IMO.

Quote from: Kaiu Keiichi;630547I can respect that brutally honest statement.  RuneQuest had this vibe, and is a game series truer to S&S than D&D IMO.

If you like D&D except for clerics then you can remove them and play on. That would work too.

Crypts & Things is the only OSR/Retroclone that comes to mind that scratches Clerics.

Dragonlance - age of despair.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;630555If you like D&D except for clerics then you can remove them and play on. That would work too.

That's a non-answer, since monsters and encounter balance in all editions of D&D have been designed with Clerics being present in mind.

I have managed a long-running, until recently Cleric-free campaign*, and here is how it works:

• As per d20, characters heal 1 Hp/level/day instead of 1 Hp/day.
• There is a healing skill characters can use after suffering wounds, which restores 1d4, 1d4+2 or 1d4+4 Hp (based on the difficulty they beat).
• In addition to healing potions (which are expensive by the PCs' standards but available), it is possible to buy various healing balms and other nonmagical mixtures from various sellers. These either work over a night's rest (adding 1d3, 1d4 or 1d6 to recovered hit points), or restore Hp immediately (these tend to be less common and more expensive).

In effect, the campaign still has a lot of long-term attrition going on since the usual recovery rate is not very quick, but action does not get bogged down by the characters resting for weeks to get their full health back. Of course, this also assumes the party will rarely face battles which are so difficult that they need all that health - or if they face them, they can find a way out of their situation.
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* Characters can become initiated by gaining status in a specific cult. Although as the only PC who has become a cleric has found out, not everything is completely straightforward.

Quote from: Kaiu Keiichi;630581That's a non-answer, since monsters and encounter balance in all editions of D&D have been designed with Clerics being present in mind.

Monster "balance" in TSRD&D is entirely up to the DM, it's easy to run a no clerics game.

I've done it, see above.

Quote from: Melan;630584I have managed a long-running, until recently Cleric-free campaign*, and here is how it works:

• As per d20, characters heal 1 Hp/level/day instead of 1 Hp/day.
• There is a healing skill characters can use after suffering wounds, which restores 1d4, 1d4+2 or 1d4+4 Hp (based on the difficulty they beat).
• In addition to healing potions (which are expensive by the PCs' standards but available), it is possible to buy various healing balms and other nonmagical mixtures from various sellers. These either work over a night's rest (adding 1d3, 1d4 or 1d6 to recovered hit points), or restore Hp immediately (these tend to be less common and more expensive).

In effect, the campaign still has a lot of long-term attrition going on since the usual recovery rate is not very quick, but action does not get bogged down by the characters resting for weeks to get their full health back. Of course, this also assumes the party will rarely face battles which are so difficult that they need all that health - or if they face them, they can find a way out of their situation.
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* Characters can become initiated by gaining status in a specific cult. Although as the only PC who has become a cleric has found out, not everything is completely straightforward.

This is super useful. Thanks!

Quote from: Piestrio;630585Monster "balance" in TSRD&D is entirely up to the DM, it's easy to run a no clerics game.

I've done it, see above.

I was wondering as to the exact 'how', since the default presumes the presence of Clerics, as it does Fighters and Magic Users.

Quote from: Kaiu Keiichi;630596I was wondering as to the exact 'how', since the default presumes the presence of Clerics, as it does Fighters and Magic Users.

My first DL I just ran D&D without clerics. It played differently but it worked just fine. Aside from saying "no clerics" I didn't really adjust any rules specifically over that issue.

The second DL game I upped natural healing rates and adjusted how the healing NWP worked to pick up the pace a bit.