The thing to watch out for would be prereqs that are based on things like BAB, class features, skills, etc.  For example, Whirlwind attack requires Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, and BAB +4. Spring Attack also requires BAB +4, which essentially means that the earliest you can get Whirlwind attack as a straight fighter is level 6 (use your level 4 bonus feat to take Spring Attack, then your level 6 regular feat to take Whirlwind).

Quote from: DackeThe thing to watch out for would be prereqs that are based on things like BAB, class features, skills, etc.  For example, Whirlwind attack requires Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, and BAB +4. Spring Attack also requires BAB +4, which essentially means that the earliest you can get Whirlwind attack as a straight fighter is level 6 (use your level 4 bonus feat to take Spring Attack, then your level 6 regular feat to take Whirlwind).

But then you also have weapon focus and weapon specialization with the 2 remaining feats. Not a bad combo. You really shine when surrounded by enemies by level 6. Another feat, and you grab spiked chain, or a reach weapon with the feat that allows you to reduce your reach as a free action. All within 10 feet are attacked. And THEN the wizzy casts enlarge person, or you play a half-ogre or some low LA large critter.

How many other classes can claim to have some uber-schtick that early?

My point was mostly to show an example where you would have to be careful about retconning your feats so you don't make a character with Whirlwind attack at 4th level. If you just look at Whirlwind's prereqs (Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Combat Expertise, BAB +4), it looks like you could do it at 4th (a fighter has just the right amount of feats), but you can't since you need to spend your 4th level feat on Spring attack (which also has BAB +4 as a prereq). So you can't take Whirlwind until 6th level.

Quote from: DackeMy point was mostly to show an example where you would have to be careful about retconning your feats so you don't make a character with Whirlwind attack at 4th level. If you just look at Whirlwind's prereqs (Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Combat Expertise, BAB +4), it looks like you could do it at 4th (a fighter has just the right amount of feats), but you can't since you need to spend your 4th level feat on Spring attack (which also has BAB +4 as a prereq). So you can't take Whirlwind until 6th level.

HUh... yeah well... there's that.

Only truly VILE munchkins conveniently overlook such things in order to get their way. Power gamers (such as me) get a much bigger kick of achieving uberness while staying within the rules.

It's more... gratifying. :deviousgrin:

I've only briefly glanced at the TOC and wonder if there's anything in this book that's useful for what my players and I haven't figured out for ourselves after years of play that you'd really need a mechanic for. Other than the new feats and spells that is. And goodness sakes! How many more classes do ya need anyway?

:brood: ...yes I'm brooding.

Quote from: Ragnarok N RollHow many more classes do ya need anyway?

According to my calculations, 738.

Quote from: Ragnarok N RollAnd goodness sakes! How many more classes do ya need anyway?
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...as many as you want? I like having the choices. The only one in the PHB2 that I like, and would go out of my way to encourage to be used, is the knight. The others seem better as NPCs in my campaign world, but I wouldn't restrict players from using them if they wanted. But it's nice to have a wide selection. I like to pick and choose from a big menu.

As for the classes, I like the knight, beguiler and duskblade. The dragon shaman seems a bit weak.

The new casting classes seems a bit too powerful compared to a wiz/sorc, like the warmage. But I like the warmage so it's all good :win:

Quote from: YigThe new casting classes seems a bit too powerful compared to a wiz/sorc, like the warmage. But I like the warmage so it's all good :win:

I don't have the PH2 yet, so I've only seen the warmage and the dread necromancer. I think those are a much better method of doing "arcanist focusing on one type of magic" than wizard specialists.

Quote from: DackeI don't have the PH2 yet, so I've only seen the warmage and the dread necromancer. I think those are a much better method of doing "arcanist focusing on one type of magic" than wizard specialists.

Dread necro? Where is that?

Heroes of Horror. It's basically a Necromancy + assorted creepy spells (e.g. Evard's black tentacles) version of the warmage. Instead of metamagic, they get abilities that make their undead better, plus they eventually turn into liches (gradually over the course of 20 levels).

Here's the stat block for a dread necro I used in my last adventure. He didn't get do do all that much really - he started out by casting a black tentacles that caught the entire party, and then mostly stood by and laughed while the tentacles squeezed the PCs to bits, until one of them used his CL 20 word of chaos artifact to kill him and his minions.

 Grath ir'Nergan (CR
  Race Human
  Class/Lvl Dread Necromancer 9
  Alignment Lawful Evil
  Size/Type Medium humanoid (human)
  Init +0
  Senses Listen +X, Spot +X; Darkvision
  Aura fear 5 ft (Will DC 19 or be shaken)
  Languages Common
    AC 18 (touch 12, flatfooted 16)
 
  hp 52 +17 false life¸ DR 4/bludgeoning and magic
  Resist/SR +2 vs sleep, stun, paralysis, poison, disease; +4 vs negative energy
  Saves Fort +7, Ref +5, Will +7
    Speed 30 ft
 
  Melee charnel touch +4 (1d8+2, heals undead) OR scythe +4 (2d4/x4)
    BAB +4; Grapple +4
  Spec Actions Scabrous touch 1/day, Rebuke undead (8/day, +5, 2d6+14), Negative Energy Burst 2/day
  Combat gear 3 potions of cure moderate wounds
  Spells Caster level 9, save DC = 15+spell level (+2 for necromancy)
  4th- OOOOO animate dead, bestow curse, burning blood, contagion, death ward, dispel magic, enervation, Evard's Black tentacles, fear, giant vermin, inflict critical wounds, phantasmal killer, poison, summon undead IV
  3rd- OOOOOOO crushing despair, death ward, halt undead, inflict serious wounds, ray of exhaustion, speak with dead, summon undead III, vampiric touch
  2nd- XOOOOOO blindness/deafness, command undead, darkness, death knell, false life, gentle repose, ghoul touch, inflict moderate wounds, scare, spectral hand, summon swarm, summon undead II
  1st- OOOOOOOO bane, backbiter, bestow wound, cause fear, chill touch, detect magic, detect undead, doom, hide from undead, inflict light wounds, ray of enfeeblement, summon undead I, undetectable alignment
    Abilities Str 10(+0) Dex 14(+2) Con 14(+2) Int 12(+1) Wis 12(+1) Cha 20(+5)
 
  SQ Undead mastery
  Feats Black Lore of Moil, Empower Spell, Great Fortitude, Spell Focus (Necromancy)
  Skills Concentration +14, Knowledge (arcana) +13, Knowledge (religion) +13, Spellcraft +13
  Possessions cloak of charisma +2, chain shirt +1, eternal wand of scorching ray, amulet of natural armor +1, ten 1d6 runebones, ten 2d6 runebones, ten 3d6 runebones, scythe, 350 gp.
   
  Scabrous Touch (Su): Inflict disease by touch, as the contagion spell. No incubation time, initial DC 19, subsequent saves depend on the disease.
  Charnel Touch (Su): Inflicts 1d8+2 damage on a living creature by touch, 1/round.
  Negative Energy Burst (Su): 9d4 negative energy damage (heals undead) within 5 ft. Will DC 19 half.
  Undead Mastery (Su): Undead created by Grath have +4 to Str and Dex and gain +2 hp per die. Can control up to 81 HD created with animate dead.
  Black Lore of Moil: By adding a runebone as a component, a necromancy spell can deal additional damage: +1d6 for a 1st level spell, +2d6 for 2nd or 3rd level, and +3d6 for 4th level. These runebones cost 25 gp per die.

Quote from: DackeHeroes of Horror. It's basically a Necromancy + assorted creepy spells (e.g. Evard's black tentacles) version of the warmage. Instead of metamagic, they get abilities that make their undead better, plus they eventually turn into liches (gradually over the course of 20 levels).

Oh. I don't have that book. I'll have to check it out.

Quote from: ColonelHardisson...as many as you want? I like having the choices. The only one in the PHB2 that I like, and would go out of my way to encourage to be used, is the knight. The others seem better as NPCs in my campaign world, but I wouldn't restrict players from using them if they wanted. But it's nice to have a wide selection. I like to pick and choose from a big menu.

I got a longer look at some of the classes and I would agree, I like the knight much better than I do the cavalier.

How would one rate the power level of the feats? I got a glance at a couple pages worth but overall?