Quote from: pawsplay;345315By being focused, it should actually offer better value than a more universal game. Since most microgames lack the resolution systems of a well-developed design, this is rarely the case. Example: Stack micro-game X up against Fudge, D6, or GURPs Lite and try to determine what benefits you have gained. A micro-game lacks the components of a universal game. If it has diverse and robust components, you could use it for multiple scenario or even genres, and it is no longer a micro-game. Thus, good micro-game is almost a contradiction in terms, unless the micro-game is not really an RPG at all but a related species.

I would definitely play Baron Munchausen, but I would never claim it's a good, focused microgame because it's not, really, an RPG at all.

Well said.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;345536Well said.

Yeah, I'm sure that well-spoken generalizations that you agree with are much more appealing than something like aramis's actual specific examples (read: evidence) contrary to your arbitrary opinion. I'll add one of my own. Grey Ranks dealt with a specific historical incident and examined the ramifications of youth in war better than a more generic game would have. Game mechanics and setting details specific to the narrow focus were crucial to improving the experience.

I've got a yen to play ancient Greek heroes. I'm looking at AGON. I bet it'll do a better job of creating an immersive Ancient Greece feel than GURPS Ancient Greece ever could because every element of the game is devoted to that specific setting.

Grey Ranks wasn't even an RPG.

RPGPundit

You're such a joke.

Quote from: two_fishes;345608You're such a joke.

I'm not the one who spends his time trolling an ideologically opposite forum.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;345861I'm not the one who spends his time trolling an ideologically opposite forum.

RPGPundit

He's no troll. Or is this the kind of place where only people who think alike bitch amongst themselves ?

Regards,
David R

ALL games are actually "universal" ... if you really think about it. The publishing companies should focus on specific "worlds" though, instead of trying to compete with homebrew (my complaint about WoTC), They can publish homebrew extensions for their games but when they try too hard to embrace every possible genre they lose cohesion and the game becomes nothing but a collection of stats and die rolls. There are a few exceptions for my opinion though, I think Shadowrun did a great job of combining a lot of different genres, yet they still focused on one game world. D&D (classic and even 2nd ed) could also be tailored to almost any genre or world you wanted, with only a few tweaks.

Quote from: KittenKoder;346099ALL games are actually "universal" ... if you really think about it. The publishing companies should focus on specific "worlds" though, instead of trying to compete with homebrew (my complaint about WoTC), They can publish homebrew extensions for their games but when they try too hard to embrace every possible genre they lose cohesion and the game becomes nothing but a collection of stats and die rolls. There are a few exceptions for my opinion though, I think Shadowrun did a great job of combining a lot of different genres, yet they still focused on one game world. D&D (classic and even 2nd ed) could also be tailored to almost any genre or world you wanted, with only a few tweaks.

No "all" games are not "universal". Even if you really think about it. Certain games lend themselves to to peticular genres better than others.
They should publish specific worlds instead of competing with my homebrew? That statement makes absolutely no fucking sense. Publish homebrew extensions? Yeah last time I checked companies publish material relavent to their settings or toolkits to help you with yours. If your saying a game system like GURPS tries to cover to many genres and cant do it all. I think you will find their are a lot of people that disagree with that. Perhaps a game like Two Fisted Tales might do pulp a little better than say GURPS. But it boils down to the group using the system.
If it breaks down to just a collection of rolls and stats and thats all. Its not the games fault. Its the lack of imagination of the GM and group.
Classic rule Cyclopedia could be adapted with only a few tweaks to any setting? Really? Yeah it would tackle a modern spec ops game far easier than say GURPS or D20 Modern.:rolleyes:

Quote from: Ronin;346110No "all" games are not "universal". Even if you really think about it. Certain games lend themselves to to peticular genres better than others.
They should publish specific worlds instead of competing with my homebrew? That statement makes absolutely no fucking sense. Publish homebrew extensions? Yeah last time I checked companies publish material relavent to their settings or toolkits to help you with yours. If your saying a game system like GURPS tries to cover to many genres and cant do it all. I think you will find their are a lot of people that disagree with that. Perhaps a game like Two Fisted Tales might do pulp a little better than say GURPS. But it boils down to the group using the system.
If it breaks down to just a collection of rolls and stats and thats all. Its not the games fault. Its the lack of imagination of the GM and group.
Classic rule Cyclopedia could be adapted with only a few tweaks to any setting? Really? Yeah it would tackle a modern spec ops game far easier than say GURPS or D20 Modern.:rolleyes:

Really? D20 has a Star Wars version out, and had many sci-fi for 2nd ed.. Creativity is key for all games, the systems are not what makes the world, nor does the world make the system. Look at Torg, Shadowrun, any Anime game, they all mix up a lot of (if not all) genres. I have played a lot of D&D sci-fi games, the tweaks are easy, thus how the original Buck Rogers came about. So ... yeah, either you lack the ingenuity to tweak a system, or you are thinking too narrowly.

Quote from: KittenKoder;346112Really? D20 has a Star Wars version out, and had many sci-fi for 2nd ed.. Creativity is key for all games, the systems are not what makes the world, nor does the world make the system. Look at Torg, Shadowrun, any Anime game, they all mix up a lot of (if not all) genres. I have played a lot of D&D sci-fi games, the tweaks are easy, thus how the original Buck Rogers came about. So ... yeah, either you lack the ingenuity to tweak a system, or you are thinking too narrowly.

Wow, try reading for content. Your right D20 does have a "Star Wars". But You stated "Classic" Rules Cyclopedia could be used to run anything. I gave an example of two games that would far easier to run the stated genre of modern spec. ops. far easier. Certain games lend them selves to certain genres better than others.

Quote from: KittenKoderbut when they try too hard to embrace every possible genre they lose cohesion

You complain that Games like GURPS, or Savage Worlds are not focused enough. But then you think that a purposely designed fantasy game can do it all. But a universal game cant? So which the fuck is it? Its not the point that you can tweak D&D. But why spend time laboring over a conversion when their is already a game that tackles it better. Their are certain games that do certain things better. Not to mention the truely universal games like GURPS, Savage Worlds, or what have you can be easily used with a minimum of fuss? Which doesnt lose "cohesion" because it does it all. I do not lack ingenuity or think narrowly. But thanks for trying insult as being ignorant. Let me break it down in a simple explanation for you. You can use a poodle to hunt quail. But it wont do as good of a job as a Springer Spaniel that has been bred for centuries to hunt upland birds.

Quote from: Ronin;346118Wow, try reading for content. Your right D20 does have a "Star Wars". But You stated "Classic" Rules Cyclopedia could be used to run anything. I gave an example of two games that would far easier to run the stated genre of modern spec. ops. far easier. Certain games lend them selves to certain genres better than others.  You complain that Games like GURPS, or Savage Worlds are not focused enough. But then you think that a purposely designed fantasy game can do it all. But a universal game cant? So which the fuck is it? Its not the point that you can tweak D&D. But why spend time laboring over a conversion when their is already a game that tackles it better. Their are certain games that do certain things better. Not to mention the truely universal games like GURPS, Savage Worlds, or what have you can be easily used with a minimum of fuss? Which doesnt lose "cohesion" because it does it all. I do not lack ingenuity or think narrowly. But thanks for trying insult as being ignorant. Let me break it down in a simple explanation for you. You can use a poodle to hunt quail. But it wont do as good of a job as a Springer Spaniel that has been bred for centuries to hunt upland birds.

First, I didn't "complain" ... just stated that it's not generally beneficial to many gamers, but they make money off it, so good for them.

Classic D&D can be used in any genre, plain and simple, it just takes ingenuity, nothing more.

Quote from: KittenKoder;346122First, I didn't "complain" ... just stated that it's not generally beneficial to many gamers, but they make money off it, so good for them.

Classic D&D can be used in any genre, plain and simple, it just takes ingenuity, nothing more.

Quote from: KittenKoderbut when they try too hard to embrace every possible genre they lose cohesion and the game becomes nothing but a collection of stats and die rolls.

Sounds like a complain to me. Its certainly not a statement of fact.

Whats not generally beneficial? Using a game thats designed for a genre? Using a universal sustem that can handle anything? Who makes money off it? A game company makes money selling game to people who like said game. Whats the fuck does that have to do with anything? Good for who? Broad generalizations about nothing mean nothing.

Sure with a whole lot of work Classic D&D could be made to work with what ever. Their are games that could tackle other genres easier and better. I could also play Monopoly with Space Hulk. (With a little ingenuity as you keep regurtating) But it would be a hell of a lot easier to do it with a Monopoly game.

Back to the premise of this thread. Micro-games dont even do an entire genre. They do one specific thing. They dont do anything else worth a shit if at all. Lets look at Grey Ranks. Its a WWII game. But its not a game your going to recreate the Invasion of Normandy with, or the Battle Kursk. It does one thing. Child resistance fighters/soldiers and their emotional trials and tribulations during the Warsaw Uprising. All of which is conducted over three sessions using a scene structure, with each scene corresponding to a specific date in 1944.

Quote from: Ronin;346125Sounds like a complain to me. Its certainly not a statement of fact.

Whats not generally beneficial? Using a game thats designed for a genre? Using a universal sustem that can handle anything? Who makes money off it? A game company makes money selling game to people who like said game. Whats the fuck does that have to do with anything? Good for who? Broad generalizations about nothing mean nothing.

Sure with a whole lot of work Classic D&D could be made to work with what ever. Their are games that could tackle other genres easier and better. I could also play Monopoly with Space Hulk. (With a little ingenuity as you keep regurtating) But it would be a hell of a lot easier to do it with a Monopoly game.

Back to the premise of this thread. Micro-games dont even do an entire genre. They do one specific thing. They dont do anything else worth a shit if at all. Lets look at Grey Ranks. Its a WWII game. But its not a game your going to recreate the Invasion of Normandy with, or the Battle Kursk. It does one thing. Child resistance fighters/soldiers and their emotional trials and tribulations during the Warsaw Uprising. All of which is conducted over three sessions using a scene structure, with each scene corresponding to a specific date in 1944.

Now I must ask, do you understand what the word "cohesion" means? So essentially you only go by the "official" books and never ever add anything to or change anything in games? That's pretty boring.

Quote from: KittenKoder;346126Now I must ask, do you understand what the word "cohesion" means? So essentially you only go by the "official" books and never ever add anything to or change anything in games? That's pretty boring.

Do you fucking know?

Quote from: KittenKoderbut when they try too hard to embrace every possible genre they lose cohesion and the game becomes nothing but a collection of stats and die rolls.

Direct quote from you. Can you explain how a game like GURPS that embraces "every possible genre" loses "cohesion"? Please explain the quoted statement to me. How does GURPS lose cohesion. How does it not work, how does it fail?
 
No I dont go by just the official books. My whole point which you seem to be missing. Is that while I like D&D, and it does fantasy really well. I'm not talking about adding robots or blasters like in "Expedition to the Barrier Peaks". Thats a no brainer. When it comes to fucking around to make it work with another genre though. I would rather use a system that is geared towards that. Or if I have a real desire to cover it all and lay my mark on everything then I would go with a truly Universal system.

I do think its funny though that you accuse me of going with just the official materials when you your self say.

Quote from: KittenKoderThe publishing companies should focus on specific "worlds"

So your saying that games should be set in specific worlds, and that any thing else you can do on your own. And that companies that provide toolkit type games that can do whatever. Arent any good and shouldnt be used because they lack "cohesion". Your a walking contradiction.

I don t really have a problem with focused games.When you play a game that limits what you can be or what happens with the plot, you usually play it because you re okay with that focus, or that you want to play a game with that type of focus.If you don t like it,you can simply play another game.