Quote from: RPGPundit;345294The part I took issue with in your response is that you turned my "a lot" into "most", which I most certainly didn't say.
I do believe that most gamers DO like co-operative play.

So in other words you believe that "most" gamers like co-operative play but "a lot" don't. Much clearer. What leads you to this conclusion ?

QuoteIf I can convince a non-bookreading non-dicelessliking player to play ONE session of Amber, and I usually can, I have ALWAYS had them liking diceless by the end of the session, and by the end of the campaign they will usually (though not always) have read the books.

Not been my experience. I could get them to play an Amber (giving it a shot because I want to run it, just as I would run a game they like) but the diceless aspect gets in the way.

QuoteI guess our experience differs; I thought it was because of how good the game was, but maybe its just that I'm that good.

Okay, if you say so.

QuoteI've met quite a lot of players who basically want to be the one in charge. Their idea of "co-operation", if any, is that others will do what they like and they get all the facetime. They will seek to undermine anyone else who risks becoming the "Protagonist" of the game.
I think almost all of us have run into players like that. You know, assholes.
And I think that perhaps part of the issue these guys have (aside from being assholes) is that co-operative play really isn't for them, and they'd do much better in a competitive game; but they like other elements of RPGs, and since there are very very few competitive RPGs out there (the player in question might not even know that those games do exist) they will instead keep pretending to like co-operation, and end up sabotaging gaming groups.
They're still assholes, mind you, for not just admitting their nature.

Well this is something completely different and surely by "a lot" you didn't mean these types of players. IME assholes don't like competition. They like fucking about with the other players and the GM. I don't think they would do much better in a competitive game because cooperative play is more condusive to being a dick. And really at the end of the day, it's not really about competition where you can be competitive but not a dick but rather about disruption. I don't really see what other elements of rpgs they would like or how strongly they feel about these elements if it can't stop them from being a dick. So, it's not that they pretend they like cooperation it's that they prefer being assholes. I don't see how competitive games helps with these types of players.  

Edit: But I do think that some gamers prefer competitive game play. I met a few gamers who like the whole (to use a Forgey term - I think) Blood Opera experience....not that they need a specific game to enjoy such play. I seen gamers use UA, D&D, Mage etc.

QuoteWhat the fuck does that have to do with anything???
In my OP, I cited Amber specifically as a COMPETITIVE game, that non-competitive players have no problem saying they don't want to play. That's it.
Now you keep coming up with this scenario:
So seriously dude, what the fuck?!

I just think it would have been better if you used an example of game which regular gamers could relate to. I mean, diceless, cmon'

Regards,
David R

Quote from: Captain Rufus;345266White Wolf is basically superpowered/supernatural high school cliques with the odd plot only half your average Cam LARP group genuinely gives a shit about, and the other half just want to use it as an excuse for more power.

Wouldn't this describe a particularly dysfunctional Masquerade LARP rather than the White Wolf games in general, though? After all, every single tabletop RPG by WW typically tends to presume that the PCs form a fairly tightly-knit group of friends or adopted family (whether that's called a cabal or coterie, motley or pack, band or circle) which looks out for each other and acts together to solve their problems. There's no default assumption of PvP or intraparty conflict, and certainly no reason why the campaign couldn't be all about "heroism, fellowship, brother/sisterhood, and epic feats of legend" (depending on the game in question, naturally enough).

Quote from: Captain Rufus;345266If I want to PVP you, let's crack out the Arcane Legions, Squad Leader, LockNLoad, Uncharted Seas, Battletech, Car Wars, Warhammer 40K, AT 43, Confrontation, Nuclear War, Panzer Grenadier, Ogre/Gev, or one of the hundreds of competitive hobby games.

RPGs are supposed to be fucking different.  A zero sum game where everyone has fun together.

This encapsulates how I feel about it.

Over the decades, I've run across some gamers who had a competitive attitude when playing RPGs. It could be that they were so used to the competitive paradigm of board games they grew up playing - like Monopoly or even Life, card games, Yahtzee - that they carried this attitude over into RPGs. They may have not quite gotten that RPGs don't usually have a clear-cut "winner." I wouldn't say they didn't like cooperative gaming, but rather that it was something completely different from every other kind of gaming they'd been involved in and they hadn't quite grokked that.

Quote from: Captain Rufus;345266I play RPGs to get what is missing in real life.  Heroism, fellowship, brother/sisterhood.

Now there's a quote to take out of context, Rufus-no-mates!

"Though my brother and I may quarrel, none may quarrel with my brother and not quarrel with me," to quote the Motley Pledge from Changeling: The Lost. "We had our families taken from us, but now we're family, bound by more than blood. I swear to stand by each of you as you swear to stand by me." And that pledge "to aid one another unto even torture and death" is magically binding, so those who then go back on their word will be cursed as oathbreakers.

Quote from: Captain Rufus;345266White Wolf players are competitive.

Really?  Because I've been in tons of other games where players are trying to one-up eachother, and they're nothing like White-Wolf games.  Certain gamers, especially those coming from other, more competitive games (whether they're obsessed with multiplayer video-games or something like Magic), will always have that bit of competitive spirit in them.

QuoteIts why I don't like White Wolf.

You don't like White-Wolf because you gamed with a bad group?

When people start talking about co-operative or competitive play, it needs to be acknowledged that a lot of fun you get out of that is determined by the Players themselves and how co-operative or competitive they are when playing and not the game rules themselves so much.

Quote from: Peregrin;345376Really?  Because I've been in tons of other games where players are trying to one-up eachother, and they're nothing like White-Wolf games.  Certain gamers, especially those coming from other, more competitive games (whether they're obsessed with multiplayer video-games or something like Magic), will always have that bit of competitive spirit in them.



You don't like White-Wolf because you gamed with a bad group?

That's nearly EVERY GODDAMNED GROUP.  Every group I have played in (except the one Mortals game I ran which was more like Call of Cthulhu modern day, except no SAN checks..), and every group I have heard live non Internet people talk about.

There are exceptions to every rule, but the majority of WW players play it as a supernatural high school clique where everyone is out for more power.

If you are lucky it doesn't involve ganking the other players.  Some of the stories I heard showed that happens quite a bit.

Quote from: Captain Rufus;345411If you are lucky it doesn't involve ganking the other players.  Some of the stories I heard showed that happens quite a bit.

I've no clue, then.  I guess I'm lucky that my normal gaming group started in high-school and we never took anything seriously, I guess.  The only time I've had another player actively compete/fuck with one of my characters was an extra player we had during a D&D campaign way back, and it was more of a comedy routine than anything else.

Captain Rufus' feelings about White Wolf LARP are pretty accurate.

A part of the deal with LARPing is that the people that start first and come all the time become the most powerful. It's like D&D if the game went on for 5 years, there are 40 players, and all new people start at level one.

Those people that are at the highest level get the most out of the plot because they have invested the time. The GM doesn't have the ability to hand run 200 NPCs so every player has a special snowflake adventure.

In a LARP, there are basically 5-10 MAIN player characters, and everyone that comes in later, unless they are very good at it, will stay side characters for a long time.

If you can't hangout for 3 hours waiting for your 2 minutes in the sun and don't like playing dress-up or socializing with goths, then LARPing isn't for you.

The games should be about competition Its usually loosers who want them to be about cooperation.

Quote from: Girl;345443The games should be about competition Its usually loosers who want them to be about cooperation.

WTF??

Most RPGs focus on a group of player characters co-operating to accomplish a goal, mission, or quest.

Even the most Dungeon crawl the party of adventurers have to cooperate to make it through alive and survive.


-Ed C.

It doesnt count unless you do it yourself and everyone is the world is everyone is against everyone else. Its not a market place of ideas its a battleifeld of ideas. And somepeople are supposed to be winners and some people are supposed to be loosers.

Girl,
 You're not making much sense there.


- Ed C.

Quote from: Cranewings;345442Captain Rufus' feelings about White Wolf LARP are pretty accurate.

Was he talking about LARP?  I don't think he was.  My experiences are limited to tabletop, and I doubt I'd LARP, anyway.