It depends on the kind of game you're running. This is right along the lines of the discussion we had about tracking ammunition.

A gritty, post-apocalypse game like Twilight 2000? You bet your ass I'll be tracking every bullet and bandage (although I might abstract food and water usage somewhat to 'X supplies expended per day, depending on if you're eating heartily, carefully, or on short rations').

It is said that you die after three days without water, three weeks without food, three hours exposed to terrible weather without adequate clothing, three minutes without air, and you probably faint if you do not sleep for three days.

I don't think most GMs want their PCs to starve to death, so food/water would be more important as an encumberance/commerce minigame. I like it, but it gets tiresome.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on June 21, 2021, 08:31:48 AM
It depends on the kind of game you're running. This is right along the lines of the discussion we had about tracking ammunition.

A gritty, post-apocalypse game like Twilight 2000? You bet your ass I'll be tracking every bullet and bandage (although I might abstract food and water usage somewhat to 'X supplies expended per day, depending on if you're eating heartily, carefully, or on short rations').

Tracking bullets is nothing special. Real Twilight 2000 players count their empty brass.

Hit Points do a perfectly good job here.

No air after 3 rounds? Take damage.
No water after 3 days? Take damage.
No food after 3 weeks? Take damage.

And that's if you're inactive and in comfortable surroundings.
The damage happens sooner and hits harder if you're active and/or you're in rough conditions.

Walking through Dark Sun's desert with no water? Take 1D6 per day.

Quote from: Spinachcat on June 24, 2021, 12:14:20 AM
Hit Points do a perfectly good job here.

No air after 3 rounds? Take damage.
No water after 3 days? Take damage.
No food after 3 weeks? Take damage.

And that's if you're inactive and in comfortable surroundings.
The damage happens sooner and hits harder if you're active and/or you're in rough conditions.

Walking through Dark Sun's desert with no water? Take 1D6 per day.

Hit points do not do a good job with air deprivation.  I've tried to make it work.  In normal cases, about a minute without air is enough to knock someone out.  (Leaving aside pearl divers etc)  But let them wake up and recover for a minute then they're as good as new.  Over three minutes and brain damage starts to set in, which doesn't ever heal.  Neither of these can be modeled by hot points without modifying them into something entirely different.

Quote from: Spinachcat on June 24, 2021, 12:14:20 AM
Hit Points do a perfectly good job here.

No air after 3 rounds? Take damage.
No water after 3 days? Take damage.
No food after 3 weeks? Take damage.

And that's if you're inactive and in comfortable surroundings.
The damage happens sooner and hits harder if you're active and/or you're in rough conditions.

Walking through Dark Sun's desert with no water? Take 1D6 per day.

Greetings!

Oh, yeah, man. You know that's right. It reminds me of a young fellow Marine back in the day, training on war maneuvers at 29 Palms, CA. There's a giant Marine base out there at 29 Palms, CA. That's where the Corps trains us in desert warfare.

Anyhow, this young Marine somehow got separated from his unit during operations. He's Marine Infantry, so he's a beast in fantastic physical condition. The young Marine's body was found the next day, dead from heat exhaustion, exposure, and dehydration. The investigating authorities figured out that he managed to make his canteens of water last for some time, and that he walked for 18 miles trying to find a road or some kind of help. A single day of marching under the heat of the brutal desert sun with minimal water simply sucked the life from him and killed him. Such a tragedy. He was 18 or 19 years old, and had been in the Corps for just about a year when he died out in the desert.

I always remember how lethal the desert can be. Getting separated and lost, and you are in a world of hurt *fast*.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on June 24, 2021, 05:12:33 AM

Quote from: Spinachcat on June 24, 2021, 12:14:20 AM
Hit Points do a perfectly good job here.

No air after 3 rounds? Take damage.
No water after 3 days? Take damage.
No food after 3 weeks? Take damage.

And that's if you're inactive and in comfortable surroundings.
The damage happens sooner and hits harder if you're active and/or you're in rough conditions.

Walking through Dark Sun's desert with no water? Take 1D6 per day.

Greetings!

Oh, yeah, man. You know that's right. It reminds me of a young fellow Marine back in the day, training on war maneuvers at 29 Palms, CA. There's a giant Marine base out there at 29 Palms, CA. That's where the Corps trains us in desert warfare.

Anyhow, this young Marine somehow got separated from his unit during operations. He's Marine Infantry, so he's a beast in fantastic physical condition. The young Marine's body was found the next day, dead from heat exhaustion, exposure, and dehydration. The investigating authorities figured out that he managed to make his canteens of water last for some time, and that he walked for 18 miles trying to find a road or some kind of help. A single day of marching under the heat of the brutal desert sun with minimal water simply sucked the life from him and killed him. Such a tragedy. He was 18 or 19 years old, and had been in the Corps for just about a year when he died out in the desert.

I always remember how lethal the desert can be. Getting separated and lost, and you are in a world of hurt *fast*.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

With no disrespect intended to your brother, Shark, he made the classic mistake people too often make when they get lost: he kept moving around.

Exertion drains energy and yes, water from you, faster. He would've done better to dig in, build a shelter from the sun, then wait it out -- after all, Uncle Sam's got an investment in him, and his brothers WILL come looking. Depending on his gear loadout he might've even been able to build a solar still -- you won't get a LOT of water out of it, but even a little might make the difference.

Quote from: Mishihari on June 24, 2021, 02:14:40 AM
Hit points do not do a good job with air deprivation.  I've tried to make it work.  In normal cases, about a minute without air is enough to knock someone out.  (Leaving aside pearl divers etc)  But let them wake up and recover for a minute then they're as good as new.  Over three minutes and brain damage starts to set in, which doesn't ever heal.  Neither of these can be modeled by hot points without modifying them into something entirely different.

If you're shooting for realism, a.k.a. "normal cases", this all makes some sense; for cinematic games less so. But the issue is no different for any sort of "damage". If HP are abstract, then they include things like battle fatigue which ostensibly recovers with similar speed. Likewise, actual battle damage leaves all sorts of permanent injury that warriors never recover from, and most games ignore that as well.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on June 24, 2021, 08:04:54 AM

Quote from: SHARK on June 24, 2021, 05:12:33 AM

Quote from: Spinachcat on June 24, 2021, 12:14:20 AM
Hit Points do a perfectly good job here.

No air after 3 rounds? Take damage.
No water after 3 days? Take damage.
No food after 3 weeks? Take damage.

And that's if you're inactive and in comfortable surroundings.
The damage happens sooner and hits harder if you're active and/or you're in rough conditions.

Walking through Dark Sun's desert with no water? Take 1D6 per day.

Greetings!

Oh, yeah, man. You know that's right. It reminds me of a young fellow Marine back in the day, training on war maneuvers at 29 Palms, CA. There's a giant Marine base out there at 29 Palms, CA. That's where the Corps trains us in desert warfare.

Anyhow, this young Marine somehow got separated from his unit during operations. He's Marine Infantry, so he's a beast in fantastic physical condition. The young Marine's body was found the next day, dead from heat exhaustion, exposure, and dehydration. The investigating authorities figured out that he managed to make his canteens of water last for some time, and that he walked for 18 miles trying to find a road or some kind of help. A single day of marching under the heat of the brutal desert sun with minimal water simply sucked the life from him and killed him. Such a tragedy. He was 18 or 19 years old, and had been in the Corps for just about a year when he died out in the desert.

I always remember how lethal the desert can be. Getting separated and lost, and you are in a world of hurt *fast*.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

With no disrespect intended to your brother, Shark, he made the classic mistake people too often make when they get lost: he kept moving around.

Exertion drains energy and yes, water from you, faster. He would've done better to dig in, build a shelter from the sun, then wait it out -- after all, Uncle Sam's got an investment in him, and his brothers WILL come looking. Depending on his gear loadout he might've even been able to build a solar still -- you won't get a LOT of water out of it, but even a little might make the difference.

Greetings!

Yep, my friend! You are exactly right, too. No worries or offense taken, brother. It's funny, because the commanders said the same thing you just said! The weird thing is though, the corpsmen or doctor that was part of the official investigation--cause you know, when a Marine or any member of the military dies, there's *always* an investigation--the doctor aid that the Marine was certainly trained, and had he been able to keep his cool and think clearly--he would have done precisely that. Instead though, he figured the heat exhaustion must have made the Marine delirious, and as the dehydration and heat kicked in, he must have become disoriented, and confused. Recon guys guessed from some of the signs that the Marine was lost because apparently part of his 18-mile march through the desert had been also going some of the way in circles, or going over some areas he had already been to. Geesus. Yeah, he should have crawled under a rock and sat tight. They would have found him within 8 hours, as I recall. But his wandering took him further out and shit. Fucked up. Right on, my friend!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Mishihari on June 24, 2021, 02:14:40 AM

Hit points do not do a good job with air deprivation.  I've tried to make it work.  In normal cases, about a minute without air is enough to knock someone out.  (Leaving aside pearl divers etc)  But let them wake up and recover for a minute then they're as good as new.  Over three minutes and brain damage starts to set in, which doesn't ever heal.  Neither of these can be modeled by hot points without modifying them into something entirely different.

I think HP probably model that pretty well. They have been described as abstract things rather than meat points from the beginning.  The disconnect has been the healing rate rules which, for all the hate it received, 4e actually treated closer to how they've been written with quick healing.  HP hasn't modelled physical damage well in many games.

Quote from: Pat on June 20, 2021, 12:15:38 AM
It doesn't add tactical depth. It tends to mean whomever hits first, wins. Not always, but games with death spirals skew in that direction...

The only death spirals I usually enjoy seeing (as you said - it's subjective) are with Vitality/Life systems. That way the "life" points are basically defined in-setting as the "meat" points - so it makes sense that they cause penalties. While Vitality is the luck/endurance/whatever - so it makes sense losing it doesn't cause penalties.

Plus - it generally avoids the issue of the first solid hit winning - since Vitality will likely take the first hit or two.

Even then I still don't like extreme death spirals - but a moderate one can add a bit of depth there without most of the usual negatives of a death spiral.


Other than that - I do think that death spirals can work well in horror settings - especially if they surround the mental aspects of feat/insanity moreso than physical damage. Though part of that may be due to horror settings generally being for one-shots anyway.

The problem with using hit points is that you end up with immersion breaking situations: characters going weeks without water just because they have tons of hit points. Unless it does ridiculous amounts of damage? But usually this would be like 1d6 a day.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on June 24, 2021, 02:02:56 PM
The problem with using hit points is that you end up with immersion breaking situations: characters going weeks without water just because they have tons of hit points. Unless it does ridiculous amounts of damage? But usually this would be like 1d6 a day.

There's a solution to this. Start with fatigue/exhaustion conditions. No saves. Go more than (Con modifier) days without water and you become fatigued, the next day exhausted, the next day you're incapacitated (effectively 0 HP). Next day, you're dead. Modify for environment.

Yeah. That's what 5e does. You get ranks of exhaustion.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper on June 24, 2021, 01:39:10 PM
Plus - it generally avoids the issue of the first solid hit winning - since Vitality will likely take the first hit or two.

Even then I still don't like extreme death spirals - but a moderate one can add a bit of depth there without most of the usual negatives of a death spiral.

I'd say that's more a delayed death spiral than a moderate one. Moderate implies the penalties are small, but what you're describing is a buffer before penalties take effect. And I agree, that works. In that case, once you start taking penalties, it's a sign you've lost. Under all but the most exceptional circumstances, the fight should be over. Depending on how it's implemented, it could even lead to a game where surrender becomes feasible (which is not the case with old school D&D, where all fights are essentially to the death).

It's worth noting that even in games without the explicit penalties of a death spiral, there's still a death spiral at the party level, as party members start dropping. This doesn't impose a penalty on an individual's actions, but it reduces the number of actions (attacks) your side can make (Lanchester's laws), which reduces your damage output, which from the party-level is effectively the same as individual penalties.

One consequence of this, is that smart player should take party members dropping very seriously. If one of your party drops, for whatever reason, the party should immediately start thinking defensively. Retreat or bargain, instead of pressing the attack.